I had an older gent stop by at the last gunshow with a rebarreled Mauser. He said it was not feeding and needed to get it fixed. I looked it over and, fealing a little like he needed more help than he could afford, decided to take it home to try and fix it. It was a Milsurp 98 with an aftermarket barrel that someone else had installed. A couple things were evident; the extractor was a bit tight on the cartridge and would not allow the round to slip under it. Worked that over and It helped some. Next was the feed rail on the left side and that helped some more. I finally decided to pull the barrel to put a slight radius on the chamber mouth and that is when I found this.

After talking to the gent, I determined he had ordered a short chambered barrel and had this other "smith" put it on. The barrel had a washer between the barrel shoulder and receiver face; the face of the barrel had a round washer soldered to the face. These were both the same thickness. After pondering this for a while, I determined that the reason for this shimming out the barrel that amount was the "smith" didn't havethe correct chamber reamer and thought this would work out Ok to get the correct headspace.

Can you believe it? I intend to find out who he is and confront him with this. Any suggestions? Am I off base here?

Jim

I`d be the first in line to "confront" him if it was my rifle. You would have to take 2nds.

The guy is not a smith, he`s a accident waiting to happen!

Jim, it doesn't surprise me that you took on this project at all and I am sure the cost to the old gent will be what you think he can afford and not what it should be. As to the "Bubba" that did this hack job, yes he should be confronted.

Jim,
now that's an O M F G moment...

Jimmy,
you mean moron.. i can't friggin believe someone would do that
jeffe

They guy ought have more than a confrontation out of that one.....

More like his balls tied to bumper of a pickup........

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
The barrel had a washer between the barrel shoulder and receiver face; the face of the barrel had a round washer soldered to the face.

I think it is lucky the gentleman found you.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Am I off base here?

Jim

You need to ask???

Bust him. Used to be a guy in Spokane what would use duct tape to take up the slop on the threading of a barrel. I mean a LOT of duct tape.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
The barrel had a washer between the barrel shoulder and receiver face; the face of the barrel had a round washer soldered to the face. These were both the same thickness.

Even I'm smart enough to know that one of these should have been a lock washer.

Not that i think the solution is wise, but it probably doesnt cause an importan safety issue.

I dont understand why this smith didnt just correct the headspace with a reamer, unless the caliber is som "hula-bula" wildcat

Just to shock all yoy convicting experte, the well reputatet Sauer & Sohn in germany has used the washerajustment of headspace on all their model 80 and 90. Even more shocking in some cases they used Alu washers, witch disapeared if yoy saltblued the barreled action.

Yust thinking;;
If a unknown gunsmith do a little "hokus pokus" when asemblieng a rifle, all hees colegues is picking on him, but if a major manufacturer uses the same trics, ewerybody dont dare to question it, .
some excamples.
Old Sakos were all ajusted with multiple washers, under action and buttommetal, to make correct distances.

Savage use a counternut to ajust the headspace.


Sauer 80 and 90 used up yo 10 thinn washers to ajust headspace( or was it to make the iron sights to be vertical)
Some modern manufacturer use bedding to compensate for loose fitting

Forrest, you need to clean the spewed coffee of my keyboard. Classic.

Jim, jump the dumb sob and tell the world who did it.

Unfortunately,
Major manufacturers seem to be the least informed as to what is safe or the proper method of assembling a rifle, let alone getting one to shoot straight.

Two cases in point would be Remington's trigger.......and Winchester's method of hot glue bedding.

If you're expecting to see the custom gun crowd follow the lead of major manufacturers.......well, it wouldn't make sense to call them "custom" gunbuilders.

There's a reason why smiths are in business.......and it's not because the factory gets it right the first time.

Just my .02.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Even I'm smart enough to know that one of these should have been a lock washer.

LMFAO

Jim, I would certainly leave the professional smith protocol to you, and if that is to confront another fellow who worked on a gun (I can't call him a gunsmith), but to be honest, I don't know if it's you who should confront the guy who did that original 'work'....

As someone else posted, the gentlement who owns the gun was lucky to have found you. I guess I would fix the fellows gun in the proper manner, and let him know that it was my opinion that the original issues with the gun may have been created by whoever worked on the gun previously.

I think the described work sounds pretty pathetic, even if some major manufacturers have done similar, and at that I believe there would have been more precision in their 'washer system' as Forrest said, maybe a manufacturer at least made on a lockwasher.

Regards--Don

Mr Kobe, I'm not a smith but I understand a little about it. I can understand that if one had the correct thickness of washer he could properly headspace a short chambered barrel but that would leave a large gap between the bolt face and end of the barrel.

Assuming this was the case, in your opinion was there a serious safety issue with the barreling or just poor methods and workmanship?

FUN Forrest FUN

No it would effectively cause a lengthening of the chamber. The washer would contact the inside of the action and the relationship of the bolt would be (supposedly correct). Jim I thought you were in Minnesota not Arkansas. I'm sure that remark will incur somebody's wrath. I didn't think self respecting northern boy would try and pull a stunt as you described.

quote:

ForrestB: Even I'm smart enough to know that one of these should have been a lock washer.

Sure you don't want to join the band of bubbas?

Were they hardened washers?

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Even I'm smart enough to know that one of these should have been a lock washer.

That was pretty darn funny!

That was not due to ignorence but plain stupidity & total iresponsiblity. Cut his balls off & stuff them in his mouth! (figurtivly)

quote:

I dont understand why this smith didnt just correct the headspace with a reamer, unless the caliber is som "hula-bula" wildcat

I'm gonna get me one a dem "hula-bula" wildcats sumvdey.

"lock washer"

quote of the year.

At least he didn't face off the back of the locking lugs to set the headspace.

Jim

I have been reluctant to comment because of the inevitable misinterpretation of my comments by some of the "usual supsects", but I just have to ask, did he get the headspace correct???

No, it doesn't mean I approve!!!

I am suprised he didn't extend the "spacer" down, square off the bottom and call it an auxilary recoil shoulder.

My sugestion is to show the problem to the customer, and ask him if he wants to you make it right. Let him approach the guy who did the "work". What could anyone possible say that is constructive or positive in a confrontation.

Roger

PS your PM arrived yesterday and disappeared this morning???

I’m a bit confused over what is expected to take place or what is expected to be resolved by Mr. Kobe confronting the guy that did the work.

Punch him out? Call him bad names? Threaten to sue him for the cost of fixing his handiwork? Take a dump on his lawn????????????????????

And most important, what does the owner of the rifle want to do other than get his rifle fixed?

With all due respect I just don’t see how Mr. Kobe getting involved in this (beyond his generous offer to fix the rifle) is any of his business. The owner of the rifle is the aggrieved party, not Mr. Kobe.

I may not be the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but can see the problem. If this chambering "technique", does not properly support the web of the cartridge, it does indeed, present a clear and present danger. So, yes, "Bubba" does deserve a bloody nose. And from the description, I cannot see how the web is properly supported, either in this case, or in European butcher jobs. Headspace generally has a .010 window, and I can't see doing it with a washers.

Although the lock washer suggestion may have some merit....

I'd like to see a picture.

lock washer, awesome.....I'll file that away for cheering me up in long meetings.

Another way you could handle it, show the problem to the gentleman, tell him what you would normally charge for the job, and what you are actually going to charge (it sounds like there will be a difference). Let him know that if it were your gun you would take issue with the work being done that way.

It would be good to find out who the guy is so you can recommend to your friends at least that they avoid him.

pics please.

Red

quote:

Even I'm smart enough to know that one of these should have been a lock washer.

you need to clean the spewed coffee of my keyboard.

I'm just glad my mouth was empty.

We should probably consider ourselves lucky that Forrest has refrained from posting at least 14,000 times.

I find it strange that so many of you take this as a personal insult.
It is not the "correct" way to do it, but it is in no way dangerous nor effecting the guns feeding or precision. Basement-gunsmithing is nothing new?

The lynch-mob from the old wild west is definately still alive and kicking....

I would pose 2 questions - #1 what was the twist of the washer and #2 - since you sold the chair what was it like working standing up?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
I find it strange that so many of you take this as a personal insult.
It is not the "correct" way to do it, but it is in no way dangerous nor effecting the guns feeding or precision. Basement-gunsmithing is nothing new?

The lynch-mob from the old wild west is definately still alive and kicking....

Bent,

That is really quite a pronouncement you've made considering you have no idea how thick the washer(s) is/are. The case typically protrudes about .110" on a mauser action. Now, if the manufacturer's advertisments are to be believed then the chamber is about .050" short. When you add the two, you exceed .150" which I believe many recommend as the maximum unsupported case length. Now, maybe the washer is thinner, or maybe it's thicker. On the thinner side you are right, but if it is thicker then you are wrong. Problem is, you made your sweeping pronounciation that it was safe without even knowing the actual measurements.

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:
On the thinner side you are right, but if it is thicker then you are wrong. Problem is, you made your sweeping pronounciation that it was safe without even knowing the actual measurements.

You are quite right, Sir, a bit hasty, all right. Well, that's a vouge here on the forum, so you can't really blame me!

I really had the feeling that most people rebelled against the chimming, and not the case protrusion.I forgot how short the short chambers are, I never work with theese barells.

But you are right indeed, and I stand corrected

NOTE TO SELF:

Don't buy Bubbas Cheap sporterized rifle!

I see the Problem here, but doubt the person who did it will!

Now, Lets all calm down and relax as we thank god it's not our rifle!

We are all Gentlemen and should conduct ourselves as such...Jim Should have a polite chat with this "Smith". As it was a Dangerous Short-cut and could have made full use of all the safety features of Mausers design...As I tell my Residents, "You Learn from your mistakes, just don't kill or maim Patients doing it". He needs an educational guiding hand...and close supervision!

Hansel

This story reminds me of a fella I met here in town a few years ago.....

He has an ammo and small dealer shop that he works out of his house....sells a variety of holsters, cases, handguns, etc......the norm for a small, one-man-band.

An employee of mine and I decide that we'd go check out what he had to kill some time one day.

I walk in and after chatting with him for a few minutes and looking over his goods; I noticed on a bench he had a cheaper looking 22, of what model I can't recall, in pieces and some gunsmith screwdrivers laying about.
I asked him if he was a gunsmith, hoping he was, because I've had several people locally wanting us to work on their rifles, but never having someone to refer to them to.

His answer kept me from returning to his business.......

"I do light gunsmithing."


No further comment of explanation was needed after that comment, so the question has haunted me ever since.......What exactly happens when you go from "light" gunsmithing, to say.....well, rebarreling mausers????

Pawn shops are great places to find these beauties that have been bubba'd beyond belief.
Most times the saddest part about looking at what could have been a great rifle, is the fact that someone spent a helluva lot of time to make it look not only ugly, but unsafe.

I guess the mentality is that of the guy who doesn't want to pay to have his truck worked on and would rather do the work himself. I can sympathize with that logic, but I also recognize when I've gotten in over my head.

I have no qualms at all about changing alternators, breaks, clutches, and carburetors, but I don't take a screw driver to try and jump circuits on my computer modules......
I also don't advertise my abilities as being a mechanic either.......

Dammit anyway. I knew damn well I shouldn't have taken your advice to use those washers when you refused to borrow me those chambering reamers and headspace guages I asked to borrow.

So what kind of washer is certified by SAAMI to withstand WSM pressures? A grade 8? Grade 5? A mild steel washer?

Also, should the washer be left to hold itself in place by friction or should there be a dab of epoxy applied?

"Also, should the washer be left to hold itself in place by friction or should there be a dab of epoxy applied?"

And I didn't think you were a Bubba! Dont yew know theres no akkurate way to measure a dab!

Hello mydear "LYNCHING MOB"

Wouldnt it be possible to get mr Jim Kobe to provide us with some actual measurements, of the actual efective caseheadprotrution.
Would it also be possible to get Mr jim to inform if the washer was silver soldered, or soft tinsoldered.

As i read it Jim was prepared to make a chamfering/radius on the chamber mouth.
How mutch would that have efected the casehead support compared to the not yet known washerthickness.

As far as my alzheimer effected memori tells me, a M98 standard chamber has a headprotrution of about 2.75mm + up to 1.5mm of chamfering/radius.

Other riflebrands has up to 4mm of protrution + 1mm of camfering. They all pass CIP and SAAMI tests.
Some producers use long headprotution as a sort of safetyvalve, to limit the maximum obtainable preasure, so that the lugs wouldnt fall off.

In your lynching mode, do you realise that a CRF rifle with 2.75mm of protrution supports the casehead less than a PF action with 4.5mm of headprotrution(because of the webb at the front of the bolt is sorounding and supporting the head)

I AME NOT TRYING TO DEFEND THE "HOMESMITH" THAT DID THE JOB.

I just ask you to think thorughly about the complete theme before judging anubody, based on IGNORANCE and LACK OF INFORMATION

The chamber-end washer was soft soldered on as was the spacer washer. The headspace was correct with cartridge protrusion not measured but assumed to be about .105".