The saga continues...I bought this rifle three or was it four years ago? Its all kinda blurry now. But it was a new Stainless Model 7 in 7-08. Got it home and topped it with a Vari-X III in 1.5-5. Man, could you ask for a sweeter eastern whitetail rig?
Then reality set in. It shot patterns...not groups. No really. My WORST muzzleloader shoots better groups than this rifle did at 100 yards...factory ammo, reloads didn't matter. So I did the usual troubleshooting, screw tightening, scope switching etc etc. Finally decided to replace the junky recycled milk jug stock Remington sold with the gun with an HS Precision. No Luck. Tried a skim coat of Acraglass gel. Better...I actually got it to shoot under 2" at 100 yards with a Nosler 140 BT and some H414. Also replaced the crap that Remington calls a trigger with a Jewel. Took it hunting that year and made one of the steadiest prone game shots I've ever made on one of the biggest deer I've ever seen on my farm at slightly over 200 paces. Held dead on. Heard the smack. Deer dropped like a sack of potatoes. He thrashed his head around a little like they do but I figured he was meat on the table. So I watched and waited for a few minutes. Then, inexplicably, he gets up and runs off like nothing bothers him, tail high, bounding out of sight after maybe 300 yards. I tracked him for nearly 1/4 mile (he left BIG running hoofprints in some soft ground...but not a drop of blood...anywhere)
I take the rifle then and there and shoot it at 200 yards. At 100 yards its still 2" high. At 200 yards it prints over 18" high! WTF?
So I send the rifle back to Remington after I restore the factory handle and trigger with a nice letter explaining my problem. The nice guys at Remington tried lapping the barrel and grouping the rifle and when that didn't work they actually installed a new barrel with a test target that shows the gun grouping 10 shots around 1.5 inches...not bad but not what I want.
So I reinstall the rifle back in the HS precision and re-bed it. With and without a pressure point...it still is a 2 inch rifle.
I'm torn between sending it to someone for some action truing/lug lapping etc like Mark Penrod or just selling the thing outright and starting over with maybe a Winchester M70 fwt. What do you guys think?

Have you looked at the crown?

Kentucky Nimrod

It sounds like you got a lemon for sure. I had a rifle just like that but in 243, no matter what it wouldn't pattern less than 3-4 inches This were one of the old varmint models from remington. I took it to the gunstore and left the trouble on the shelf for another fellow

Why not look for a nice commerical mauser or a old win pre 64 in 270 or 3006? I will do anything that the 7-08 does and be a bit more versatile. I have used the 270 win quite a bit and likes cartridge for roe deer and falow deer.

Do the right thing
/ JOHAN

[ 12-18-2002, 03:06: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

I think you need to sell it to me! Seriously, I'm looking for a donor rifle for a project.....how much $$$ would I need to talk you out of it???

Send me a private message or e-mail

GonHuntin @ lycos.com (remove spaces)

Mark

G.Malmborg,
Not since I went fox hunting with Prince Charles a few years back. Seriously, yes the crown looks intact but if I decide to send it to a smith I WILL have it recut/recrowned as a matter of course. For the moment it looks fine.

Johan,
Look you Sweedish meatball ...I have a safe full of rifles in all those other calibers. I NEED a 7-08...

GonHuntin,
Aren't "donor rifle" and "$$$" mutually exclusive terms?

[ 12-18-2002, 03:04: Message edited by: Kentucky Nimrod ]

Not looking for a donated rifle....more like an "organ donor" rifle

I have a project that I'd like to build on a 7 action.....

Let me know!

Kentucky

You, our old KFC.. The 7-08 is nice but why not get a 7X57 instead or a 280 rem or 7X64.

I hope it annoys your mind for a while

/ JOHAN

[ 12-18-2002, 03:14: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

Sounds exactly like my experience with the Model 7 I bought just after the .260 Rem came out!!!!! It shot patterns, sent it back and it shot smaller patterns when I got it back. Sold the damn thing and swore off of Remingtons forever!!! Although I do have a Remington LTR in .223 that shoots pretty damn good....I just wish it was a Winchester!

KN--

I had one in the shop not long ago that must be it's twin.

I found the problem by holding the front receiver ring in the lathe's collet and rotated it slowly. The muzzle had .830 total run-out.

Take everything apart but the barrel, recoil lug, and completely stripped receiver. Carefully roll the receiver on a smooth counter top or table allowing the recoil lug to rotate just outside the counter. If the receiver threads are bad wrong you'll see the muzzle rotating like a crankshaft.

I can't for the life of me figure out how they can be made so badly......but some sure are.

JBelk

It would be interesting to compare the serial #s between the one you worked on and one in Kentucky.
Not sure a sample size of 2 would mean much, but if the numbers are close it would lead one to beleive that Rmanufacturer had a machining or operator problem for a period of time. Then again from what I read on the net, it's pretty good bet that this manufacturer had a problem. I saw one last summer (brand new) that did not have the front site on the exact top of the barrel. Off by mmaybe 10 degrees.

Kentucky,

From previous posts that you have made I am sure that your a genuine rifleman. All I can say is that if I had that experiance I would sell the rifle. All you have in it is the stock and that it's now a used rifle. Thats only hundreds of dollars, not the end of the world.

Get rid of it.

I got a new M70 Stainless Classic in 7MM WSM a few months ago and I had to do some work on it too but it's not anything that you could not do also. It's now a very accurate rifle. Hand held with my left wrist on a sandbag it will group three shots in 0.9" or much better at 100 yards everytime now that it's free floated. Some groups off the bag with MK's have been in the 0.35" range. I am taking off the 2X7 soon and puting a 4X12 back on it for the pest season. This cartridge is no longer than a 7/08 and could be loaded down if you wanted to. You can't load a 7/08 to equal it for sure.

I have 40X's for match shooting but the M70 looks and operates like a real machine. I like looking at them in the field.

The barrel and chamber in this rifle is the smoothest I have ever seen in a factory rifle.

Everyone,
I don't want another caliber. I have a WSM, I own several -06s, a 270 Win a 25-06 a few 308s, a .375 H&H, a few 45-70s a couple of .222s and .223s and even a .416 Rigby. I WANT A 7-08! I'm sure the calibers you all own are very capable and fine guns. I don't want them. Nothing against what you own. Sorry...

JBelk,
What you said now has me worried. And it kinda jives with the fact that the thing was so far off at 200 yards...I've not shot it beyond 100 since I got it back as I've not found a load that shot well enough at 100 yards to spend time with beyond that range. I'll do what you said when I get back from business travel on Friday.
Like you said...how can CNC modern production techniques produce something so badly out of tolerance. And if its really off that much can it be trued up?

BTW, remember that deer I knocked over? That was in mid-November of that year. I saw him about a month later during KY's late muzzleloading season which back then only allowed antlerless deer. He appeared healthy and happy.
Though I'm not certain, I'm pretty sure I have that same deer hanging on my wall from last years early blackpowder season. 9 points (one broken off) and he went 235 lbs dressed out!

G. Malmborg definately gave the BEST advise. I bought a tool from Brownell`s to polish crowns and can say without doubt, some of the best money I EVER spent. Tim.

Just trade it in on a M70 Compact in 7mm08 install a 1" decelerator pad to bring the length of pull to 13.5" and now you have an even "sweeter eastern whitetail rig". I have this rifle in 308 and it is a consistant MOA shooter, and beats any M7 on looks alone.

Rebarrel it. Thats what I just did for a customer with a Model 7 in 308 Win. The bore was not straight. It had a VERY obviuos crook bending toward 6 O'clock. Looking at the muzzle the bore was centered but when you looked through the breech end & rotated the barrel as they did in the Mauser factory you could easly see the bend about middle ways down the barrel. It shot just as you have described. A # 1200 contour Lothar Walter that I chambered in 308 Win made this gun a tack driver. Hope this helps.

Kentucky Nimrod,

What a horror story! However, all manufactures have had problems like this. Don't leave the Remington line just because you think another rifle builder won't have any problems. Cut your losses on this rifle and select another rifle you simple want to own. It might be another Remington. Thats OK.

Good Hunting.

I would send it to Pac-Nor to have it rebarreled. They charge $220 for the stainless select match barrel and $200 to install, which includes truing the action, lapping lugs, etc.

I had a Ruger done, total cost was $440 including shipping and glass beading the barrel.

Just a thought.

Jim

Kentucky Nimrod ask--- "........And if its really off that much can it be trued up?"

Yes it can be trued. It takes setting the receiver up to make the bolt hole (bore line) run true. Then the receiver threads have to be single-pointed true .......which makes the threads larger than standard, which means the barrel has to be replaced and the new one threaded to fit.

The only way receiver threads can be cut at an angle is for the tap to be driven into the receiver while the receiver is held still. This in totally counter intuitive, but I see no other explaination.

If the receiver were driven and the tap introduced off axis the receiver threads would be funnel shaped instead of crooked. It continues to be a mystery how they manage to get them so wrong.

The barrel with a crooked bore is very common also. You see it when cutting and crowning. The new hole will be off center by as much as .020.

Thanks JBelk, I know anything can be fixed but at what cost?

Well, I'm certainly not up for sinking another $400 into this gun and MAYBE it will shoot. Truing up action and bolt MIGHT run me another $200...but that's all I'm willing to throw in on this fiasco. Good money after bad and all...

Buliwyf,
I love old Remington's. But you'd have a helluva time getting me to spend money on a new one. Of all the rifles I've owned from Ruger, CZ, Winchester, to name just a few the ones that have given me the biggest problem...by far...are the Remingtons. And to add insult to injury they now ship the things with a stupid green safety key! The absolute crap they now produce is amazing! Show me a Model 700 action made 10-20 years ago and I'll show you a good gun. Today? Its a crap shoot and the odds aren't in your favor.

Actually, I'm interested in the new Kimber M84. I may unload this gun and take the plunge. Lets see, For sale, Stainless M-7 with HS Precision stock, Jewel Trigger, original factory stock and trigger. Leupold rings and bases $500... I'm beginning to like the sound of that!

All one has to do is walk into a gunshop. Plunk the gun on the table and put $300 in your pocket. Next with a smile on your face you saunter over to the rack and look thru a bunch of guns. You pick out a new one take it over to the counter and ask for a discount. You pay for the gun and walk out with an even bigger smile on your face.

I wish everything in life could be so good.

Yep, the new ones are a crapshoot and many are junk. I have a 22-250 700 BDL I bought in 96 that I have been working since then that stil baffles me. I have come to the conclusion that not only is the barrel junk but the action is also. It is getting better but short of spending $500 on it I can't count on it like my old 700s.

So I bought an older BBR in 22-250 and just picked up a 1960 M70 featherweight in 243 for $350 to replace it. I would recommend selling it and buying something else, cheaper in the long run.

RJS

The opening topic ends with maybe dumping the M7 and going with a M70 fwt.

This reply deserves its own topic, but here goes. We had three M70 classic receivers in here for development work on the M1999 LA. As the developement phase came to a close, one of them was put back together (25-06 Rem) for sale. Still brand new, never fired - just used for dimensional analysis.

Well...I noticed a hairline crack across the tang. When I gripped the end between forefinger and thumb and gave a little tweak....SNAP. A receiver in two parts, one big - one little. I taped the bit (which was blued all the way across the fissure except for a small corner) to my letter and sent it off to USRAC. About eight weeks later - a brand new rifle! Hey -- good show!

The safety worked sooo good. and the finish was flawless, so I decided to build a fwt on a great stock I had laying around. Off with the 25-06 barrel. On with a custom 6.5-284 Norma. Magnum stainless extractor and it feeds fabulous.

But.... (there is always that word, yes?)

It's great gopher gun. Even when aiming at antelope, it shoot gophers. Boresights 62 inches (five + feet!) low. Even my LPS with its 72" of total adjustment can't correct that. Shimmed .015 under the rear ring, and topped out elevation leaves me 8 inches low.

Not the barrel, nor the bases. Not the scope.

The receiver is .025 off across the face of a 1.350 inch ring. The threads a true to the face. Math tells me 65 inches low at 100yd. Well the scope is a tall one. And this means my brand new barrel is history.

Except... we did have three actions after all. And one of them is straight. (phew!)

My model 7 is accurate but I still hate it.

Kentucky Nimrod every one I know who has bought a savage bolt action im\n the last 3 years loves it. My next factory gun will be savage. Sell the Remington.

I have owned two model sevens in 7mm-08 and both easily shot 1" or better with handloads.The first was a model 7fs and the second a recent model 7 stainless synthetic.The only reason I sold them was that I had two many guns and they just happened to be the easiest to sell to get my numbers down.

Kentucky Nimrod,
I'm having a little trouble understanding how a rifle can print 2" at a hundred yards and be 18" high at two hundred. How high is the line of sight over the axis of the bore? I've had problems with Remington M-700s in the past. I returned them to the factory. In both cases Remington sent me a new barrel and action. The only part of the service I was unhappy with was the fact that they readjusted my 2 1/2 pound trigger back up to factory standard. As I recall, it took about five to six weeks to get the replacement back. One rifle, brand new, had a badly pitted bore and the other had a poorly cut chamber that was very rough. In both cases I recieved a info sheet on the problem. The people were very nice to me when I called for a status. Hope this helps.

Unload it and take your loss. Take a serious look at the Tikka rifles. Remington is no where near what they were 20 years ago. The final nail in their coffin is the new bolt with the key lock, JUNK. I wouldn't recommend a new Remington to my worst enemy. If you want to stay with USA manufacture, then I would suggest Savage. I had a .260 Rem come back to my shop a few years ago. That gun would not shoot better than 2" groups with the best handloads. The customer traded it on a Savage and is as happy as can be. All the Savage needs is an aftermarket trigger, for about $75. I prefer the Rifle Basix.

If you desire a quality made good shooting factory rifle look at the Cooper rifles 100% American made. They come from the factory ready to shoot and the action is already trued, the fully adjustable trigger and stock will not need to be replaced.

The last Remington rifle I purchased was back in 1980 and I have no plans to buy any now produced by Remington. Another Remington failure is drilling the action for scope mounts, many Remington actions leave the factory drilled off center. Do yourself a favor and replace your Remington head ache with a rifle you can concentrate on shooting not constantly trying to remedy poor accuracy. If any of my hunting rifles will not produce 1/2" three shot groups at 100 yards they get a new home. It sure don't take me four years to make up my mind to do so.

Should Remington return to the quality of the good old days I may consider buying one their rifles. Remington is now in the business of trying to produce a liability free rifle that can't be altered as it comes from their factory. The model 710 Remington is proof posotive of that reality. The end result is factory rifle that you would be lucky to hit a 4'X 8' sheet of paper at 100 yards using factory ammo. When you talk to any Remington technition, he will say that is well within our accuracy specs for that rifle.

I own a Cooper .222 and its hands down the best shooting rifle I own right out of the box. I've not looked at their magazine rifles but for the dough I've invested in my M7 I could have bought one that's for sure! I'm leaning more and more towards the Kimber though.

Sako/Tikka? Don't like em. Haven't been impressed with anything coming out of Finland since Sako ceased production at Rhiiamaki (sp?). In any case I think the model 75 is overpriced and there is nothing in the action design that jumps up and says I'm really a great design...hell it ain't a nickles different from a Ruger action in terms of quality and Ruger makes some nice stuff..but they don't cost $800. In terms of Tikka? I don't like all the plastic in the Tikka actions. Just my predjudices...based soley on asthetics. Never have shot one. Don't care to. Give me an old L491/691 action and I'll bite.

Savage: I'm too much of a snob to own one. To me...they are clunky and ugly as hell. They MIGHT shoot but you know what. They got no style... If you like yours and are happy with it...well, good for you. Ain't my cup of tea...no offense. There's no accounting for taste.

Winchester: I personally prefer a M70 action over an M700. But I like and will shoot M700's. Hell there are three in my safe right now. And I'm not at all deluded into thinking that Winchester hasn't had QC problems in the last few years. Hell, I had to send my M70 300 WSM back last year b/c it wouldn't feed properly. But ya know what? They got it back to me, fixed properly, in just 3 weeks...AND it shoots tiny little groups.

Remington: This was my 4th gun I've shipped back to Remington over the years. My experience is they average 4 months to repair a gun. And like someone else said about my rifle when I talked with the tech about sending it back a second time. "Well, we probably won't do anything as that gun now is within our performance specs." Gee, maybe if I do send it back I'll get lucky and they will replace it with a new gun complete with some of those fancy green safety keys...NAW, I couldn't get THAT lucky now could I?

And all you vultures out there e-mailing me thinking you are gonna get a great deal on an action here think again. NOT with a HS Precison Handle, Leupold bases and rings, and a Jewel trigger tacked on. $500 is the price! That's close to a grand retail for all that stuff. And I don't want to part it out either...its worth more as it sits and I don't want the hassle. Money ain't a problem here...if I can't sell it for what its worth I've got plenty of time and cash, and room in my safe. Some poor soul will want it more than I.

Kentucky and all you other shooters that have Rem troubles, don't leave me out. I have had a 700 BDL in 22/250 for 7-8 yrs. I put a Weaver K15 on it a couple days ago, REASON: I thought the scope on the rifle must be bad. No way could any rifle shoot so sorry, it has to be the scope. No set pattern to the way this bastard shoots. I have tried almost every .22 cal bullet, Lord only knows how many different powders and chg weights. Sometimes I am not sure which group the last bullet went in. The barrel is free floated, action has been glass'd, trigger set up about as light as is safe, put the Weaver K15 on, still shoots holes everywhere. The only thing I have wondered, the CROWN? This might be the last ditch effort to make this P.O.S. shoot a half way decent group.

I just worked up another load for a Win 70 Varmint in .225 Win., had it since 1968, and it still will shoot dime size groups at 100. What the h--- is going on? No I don't want to sell it, it will get a Hart or Shilen barrel in it eventually, if it don't straighten out.

At least after reading the above posts, I know I am not alone in my plight.

Thanks for hearing my troubles!

KS,
Yeah, I kinda figured that would rile some of yous guys that paid $800 for a Sako. I've had some awesome shooting Rugers right our of the box including my very first centerfire...a .270 Winchester Model 77 with the tang safety which I bought in 1976. That thing still shoots sweet and I've never had to touch it. Likewise with my Ruger Magnum in .375...as good as it gets in a factory rifle. Most people who rag on Rugers have never owned one. In my experience the only thing most Ruger rifles need is some trigger work.
I own and like the older Sakos but even then I had problems with some Finnbears and Forsters that required a trip back to Finland!!!

Kentucky:
Same here started buying Rugers at the end of the 70's start of the 80's never had a bum one yet, but because I prefer the tang safety, I don't plan on buying the new one.
Anyways have two 300 win mags, two Ruger Internationals, one in 308 the other 243 and a ruger ultralight in 308 currently and not a sour one in the bunch, just sold one sako, but will hold on to my last one in 375 H&H as it is a shooter and is the old Finnbear.
Have only ever changed one thing on one ruger and that was to put a synthetic stock on one.
Bill

KY Nimrod, after seeing how my buddy's Model 77 shoots (more like a shotgun than a rifle), I'm glad I have a Sako. Hell, my $399 Howa outshot his Ruger when it had the shitty Butler Creek plastic stock, now that it's bedded in a Bell & Carlson FG/Kevlar stock, it positively crushes the Ruger in accuracy. I also needed only to turn a screw to get a sweet trigger on my Howa and my Sako, not send $75 to Timney.

About the only thing my 75 needs is glass bedding, and only because I'm only happy with sub-MOA accuracy. Still, it shoots good enough to have crushed two does at 350 paces last weekend.

Your mileage will vary.

[ 12-20-2002, 23:29: Message edited by: ksduckhunter ]

KS,
I'm sorry, I must have missed it. How many Rugers have you owned?

Sorry to hear that you have had such poor luck with your Model 7. I've bought two of them, both used and both with the wood stocks and the 18 1/2 inch barrels. One was a 7mm08 and the other a 308. Before I ever shot either one of them I had my gunsmith glass the actions, tune the triggers down to 3#, and recrown the muzzles. They will both shoot sub-MOA with Barnes bullets and they are about the perfect hunting rifle when you have to climb the heap steep of central Idaho. I've given the same treatment to the two other Remington's that I have, a 700 Mtn. Rifle and a 788 and they give the same kind of performance. Same with a Model 70 Carbine in 270 Win. I like lightweight rifles and it can't be just luck that they all perform. I took the advice of Jim Combe of Elite Rifle Works in Meridian, Idaho who did all the work on the rifles and so far everything has worked out perfectly. I must say though that after reading this thread it makes me very leery of buying another rifle any time soon!

Whew! I have just spent 15 minutes reading these posts, and realized that I will now take the VZ-24 I picked up and have it re-barreled, re-stocked, and re-hab'ed it by a reputable smith who will stand behind his work, and to whom I will pay a fair price. It's the American/common sense way and you get exactly what you want - no compromises, no junk/plastic, and no BS!
Good thread, and good info...
George Jacoby
Shaw AFB SC