lb404

Lets cut to the chase here. You say you like like facts and not suppositions. However, what is a supposition to you could very well be a fact to me. You say you have been shooting for 40 + years and have had a couple of case head separations . I have been shooting for over 45 years and have suffered one. Does that make you twice as likely than me to have a case head separation? You do the math!!

I do agree with your statement " I don't recommend the experience , but I also don't tell myself they will never happen anymore either. Anyway, with this in mind I have one question for you. If you were to go out hunting on a twenty-five mile pack-in hunt, what is the LAST rifle you want this to happen to you at least twenty-five miles from the nearest civilization with? For me the answer is easy, its the pre-64 model 70, hands down. I'd be interested in your choice and reasons for it.

Now, I am not saying anyone should rid themselves of all their pre-64s, I won't even do that. But, I still maintain that they have a big problem handling gas if you have a case head seperation. Judging by your experience I still might have another accident, as you have had twice as many as me already.

Also, could you please elaboate on what you mean by "I have put to sleep at least 45(not inclusive of all but only the ones I could easily find in my logs) not one Winchester in the bunch. Plenty of Remingtons, several Brownings, three Beretta and one Sig for bullet in barrel obstructions. " Does this mean you simply traded or sold them or that you had accidents or problems with them?

Many thanks

For all of those really skeptical of the older design of the pre-64 model 70 there is a fix that Winchester used on the shorter case model 70's. They used a bolt stop collar similar to the one on the current classic actions. Its purpose was to limit the rearward progression of the bolt against the bolt stop. In effect blocking the left channel. I am looking at my two classic action rifles and will remove the extractor ring and bloct to see if it will fit the original action. This would block the gas in the race that everyone is conscerned about. I have been shooting for 40 + years and have had a couple of case head separations and have had no personal ill effencts. I don't recommend the experience but for those of you that fear the pre-64 model 70 action gas handeling, I would also quit driving, taking a shower, and climbing trees as these activities have harmed far more humans that the theoretical bad gas from a model 70. I have put to sleep at least 45(not inclusive of all but only the ones I could easily find in my logs) not one Winchester in the bunch. Plenty of Remingtons, several Brownings, three Beretta and one Sig for bullet in barrel obstructions. These are facts not suppositions. The theory is not supported in facts. State facts!!!

I put people to sleep for a living. I have been in anesthesia since l978 and of course keep monthly billing records. I also make occasional notes on unusual circumstances. Often the surgeon will ask me what caliber bullet he is removing from the patient. I do have more than a casual interest in the shooting sports.
The statistical evaluation is difficult. If you had only loaded say 10,000 rounds in the last 45 years and I had done 200,000 then you are overdue for another separation. I think it can happen even without an operator error due to faulty brass. You do the math.
If I am going to trek into the wilderness 25 miles in terrible weather, knowing that I would maybe be betting my life on my equipment then there is no other choice but the Winchester model 70 pre or post .I want the rifle to do what it is supposed to every time and in any condition. When I hunt Africa I only use the Winchester and there I am often 1-15 hours away from any significant help and I for one do not give the potential poor gas handling of a Winchester a second thought. I have seen Remington rifles that had the trigger frozen by both debris and water freezing. I have seen a browning A bolt that the metal was so brittle that a shot from a factory 7mm Mad round cracked the barrel and split it from the front of the action to the muzzle. I have owned two Rugers that the firing pin froze on due to too much grease, and would not fire. I recently bought a CZ in 7.62x39 for my wife to practice off hand shooting with that the firing pin spring was too weak and would only fire one out of 4-5 factory rounds irrespective of make. I am sure that the list could go on and on. All I know is that the Pre-64 in 375 and 458 were preferred by many professional hunters for their clients to pursue dangerous game. It was good and cheaper than a double, and gave excellent service.

Finally, if the theoretical poor gas handling condition had manifested itself as often as you purport it should, don't you think we would hear about it. Would there not be some kind of a National recall or notification. None of the Winchester barrels have any "warning shooting could kill you" or something like that. I called the Winchester people after a casual talk at the Shot Show in Dallas a few years back. They were not able to tell me of anyone hurt by the bad gas handling of the pre-64 action. I asked why they changed the design of the bolt. The bolt and gas direction was an improvement over the original design. It was easier to manufacture the new bolt. NOT because of a particular legal problem with the design.

lb404

First off, I don't know exactly how many rounds I have fired in my lifetime. I would guess it to be at least 125,000 rounds, probably more. All but a fraction of this total would be handloads. I do know that H-4831, simply called 4831 back then, was at a price few people would believe when I first started reloading and I shot a big pile of it. For many years I was able to walk out the back door and start practicing, so it was easy to shoot 5000 plus rounds some years.

I also didn't ask what rifle you would carry on a wilderness trip, I asked what one you would least want to be carrying when an accident happened. Now it certainly isn't that I don't like pre-64s. I like them as much as the next person. However, they do have a problem and you are only fooling yourself if you say they don't. I will not choose to completely ignore the fact that something can happen as your statement "I for one do not give the potential poor gas handling of a Winchester a second thought" would indicate to me. I already said I would not condem them as a general rule for it or say that they had a legal problem with them, but I also said I would take extra precautions when hunting with one. I still stand by that.

If Winchester told you "They were not able to tell me of anyone hurt by the bad gas handling of the pre-64 action., they obviously need to qualify the statements "hurt" and "bad gas handling". I am sure I am not the only person who has had a mishap with a pre-64 model 70 Winchester. I had about 150 foreign bodies in one eye and 50-75 in the other as a result of the case letting go in my pre-64. Evidently I didn't flinch!! I still have a few in both eyes, but I can easily live with that compared to what it was to begin with. I really feel that this qualifies as being "hurt", but I suppose I could be mistaken. I also feel that it was definately helped to a large degree by the way the pre-64 handles such an accident when it happens, but then according to what you say Winchester told you maybe not. I still believe that a rash statement to say the least!! I fully admit I do share some of the blame because I had removed my safety glasses because the light was failing and I wanted to shoot the rest of a new 50 round lot of ammo I had loaded up before going home for the day. Also, being it was a handload it was impossible to completely blame Winchester for the bad case as they didn't load it. But, I have been told by many, many people they don't believe you could get enough of the old surplus H-4831 in a 270 case in a non compressed load like this was to do what happened. I don't know for sure about that, but I am sure that it wasn't a severely overloaded round that caused the problem.

You further state Winchester told you that " The bolt and gas direction was an improvement over the original design. It was easier to manufacture the new bolt." I'll buy both statements to a degree, but I will still maintain that the first one was because there was a problem with the pre-64. You will also have to really work hard to convince me that attaching a gas block to the extractor ring was easier and less expensive than just using a plain ring as was used on the pre-64s that was chambered for long rounds. I will always believe that this was an attempt to help fix the shortcomings in the pre-64 whether they say so or not. To me it is the same thing as the Remington trigger you spoke of. Remington is not putting a warning on the barrels of their rifles either, but there have been several who reported problems with them. It is a fact that the design could have been improved and aftermarket triggers have changed that design, much as Winchester changed the design of the model 70 gas handling.

You have a lot of company when it comes to shooting model 70s, especially pre-64s, including me. They were and still are a tremendous rifle especially for the hunting person. If I was forced to use only factory rifles for my enjoyment the rest of my life it would no doubt be a model 70. I do think Allen has the right answer though, that the new classic is the way to go. His statements are well thought out and they make a lot of sense to me. I can't help but think I would feel just a bit more at ease when shooting one.

TBP

I guess that the facts speak louder than words as you say you hunt with a pre-64 model 70. I never stated that the gas handeling was the best. I merely took the position that some people overstate the danger of using that action. If you are really concerned with the actions safety don't use it. I for one of the many hundreds of thousands of owners of Pre-64 model 70 will continue to make and shoot those fine guns and not really worry about its potential faults. It really is too bad you can't buy new Mauser 98's with the improvements that Winchester made at a decent price.There are probably faults with every design. Heat treating with Mausers is also problematic. I have seen a 98 Mauser come apart like a grenade.I think that is an exception to the rule though.

No haven't forgot about the 700's; I just don't like the looks of them. As a matter of fact, I traded 3 bdls for a new cdl in whelen. Like others have stated, this project is about nostalgia.

I went down to the local shop where they sell lots of raw actions. They had 2 pre 64's mfg in the late 50's. Could have gotten both for $1000. I don't know if that is too much or not, but the price didn't make me drool.

And to add another twist; what about the p14's and p17 actions. I know they are strong, and big enough for the H&H; how's about them. Please say yes cuz I bought a bastardized p17 for $200.

Again I'd like the three actions to be the same; I want the stocks to be the same( probably G&H style) and The scopes will all be Unertl Hawks. Because of the G&H stlye I naturally thought of my springfields and mausers. But because of the H&H I know they aren't the best choice.

I'll keep thinkin, and thanks for the replies.
turfman

The Dakota and the Montana actions do have issues themselves. They may not be safety issues but not many of these actions are being adopted by the more reknown gun makers as their sandard action. I am hoping that the Williams action will live up to its billing as it would solve a lot of problems for those of us that are looking for actions to work with in our custom rifle projects.

"It really is too bad you can't buy new Mauser 98's with the improvements that Winchester made at a decent price."

You can. It's called the Montana M1999.


MKane160 aka BigDogMK

On the pre-'64 actions fitted for short cartridges you will notice that the bolt stop block is located between the two gas escape ports of the bolt body. This means that the block will restrict gas flow down the raceway in the event of a case head separation, but won't do much in the case of a pierced primer. This is also true with the current model 70s, but they do vent to the magazine and not the raceway. The model 98 and the Ruger 77 locate the block at the rear of the action, which is a better location. A better solution is to locate two or three larger holes in the same location as the newer 70s. The receiver cut for the anti-bind lug on the pre-'64 action allows for most of the gas to vent to a safe location anyway, however reducing the amount of gas traveling down the raceway is safer.

I've been a reloader for about 30 years and in that time I've managed to pierce exactly two primers. Both were in a 22-250 with moderate loads of surplus 4831 in a 700. I took significant gas to the face and was fortunate to be wearing glasses. They also vent the bolt directly to the left raceway with no provisions for shooter protection.

My two main hunting rifles are a pre-64 mod 70 and a Rem model 700 so I guess I don't rate the risk too highly.

The flow of gas under pressure is well defined and documented and its movement in the actions discussed is also documented and reproducible. To me that indicates fact.
Whether or not it is significant to the user is another matter.

Examining and discussing the merits and drawbacks of particular actions is in my view, not foolish. Trying to discuss the matter with individuals incapacitated by their predisposition most likely is "a fools errand".

Best regards,

TBP