So how do you gunsmiths politelly tell people that it would be a good idea not to go with tacky white spacers and cocabola forend tip/grip cap?

The sight just makes me shutter...

take that stuff and shove it up your ***

You have to be subtle and quote a price high enough that makes them think it is their idea to abort the thought.

Do you want to make money don't argue do the job ! I had a man who wanted bones installed on a Muzzle loader !

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
You have to be subtle and quote a price high enough that makes them think it is their idea to abort the thought.

YES!!
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
So how do you gunsmiths politelly tell people that it would be a good idea not to go with tacky white spacers and cocabola forend tip/grip cap?

I don't understand! What's the problem???? roger

I think a professional should express the opinion, and then if the client is insistent on something they should go ahead and do it. Of course that is if it is something that although not to their taste they wouldn't be embarrassed to have their name on. If it is something so tacky that they think it could affect their reputation then politely say no.

I'm of the opinion that when you hire a professional for something you should trust that they know what they're doing, and have seen more than you, and therefore take their opinions seriously, often times they will be right. However, sometimes things are just personal preference, and as a customer if you have something that you want badly enough sometimes you have to move on till you find the right person.

I find that if the person doing the work is interested in it, and even better, excited about it, then you get a better end result and more fun along the way.

White spacers are definitely ugly though.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
You have to be subtle and quote a price high enough that makes them think it is their idea to abort the thought.

or tell them you don't wish to do the job, and set price accordingly .. but be honest about it

agree with jeffesso. If you dont want to do the work, just tell them. On the other hand, if you are capable of doing the work, do it for a good price, do top notch work and let him enjoy his tastes in aesthetics, whether or not they are the same as yours. If you do great work he;ll recommend you, if you refuse to do the work even though you can, he may be hesitant to recommend.

Styles come and go. If it does not detract from the value of the rifle then do it with a bit of explaining that the rifle will have more resale value if it doesn't look like a 1970's Firestone Blvd special. But the same can be said for a lot of thing to Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if the beholder is insistent then do what they would like.

Not everyone can own a classic styled english walnut stock with skeleton grip and butt plates.

That said I've seen some damn ugly Monte Carlo stocks with inlays, or just plain gaudy bench rest rifles. Then there's the 29 pound tactical AR15 with every battery operated gizmo mounted to 17 different tac rails. Having so much crap on it, It doesn't even look like a rifle anymore.

what's wrong with white lines and cocabola?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
what's wrong with white lines and cocabola?

They are not politically correct in the view of internet "Taste" gurus. Don't affect rifle performance one way or the other.

Listen to malm

The truth of the matter is that many (maybe even most) custom gun builders have no better taste than their clients.

The gaudy stuff is easy to spot and complain about but there's plenty of more subtle style problems with even some of the best custom rifles. I'm not claiming to some "style guru" and I've made plenty of mistakes on my rifles - even those that might look to be sheer perfection to many folks.

The most common problem is that builders and customers both try to mix style elements on a project. I see a lot of rifles that mix swept cheek pieces with schnable or short English-style fore ends. It might not bother some but it looks horrible to me. The examples are subtle and endless but I hope you get the point.

I think this is one of the primary reasons that custom rifles fetch only a fraction of their replacement cost. Even the best work often has style issues that detract dramatically from the overall value of the rifle. This is most pronounced on the first few rifles a customer might commission; the temptation is to say "this is the only custom I'll probably ever build" and throw the kitchen sink at the project.

Some thoughts to ponder:

A lot of mediocre work is not nearly as nice as a little really good work.

The best craftsmen know exactly when to put down the tools.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
The truth of the matter is that many (maybe even most) custom gun builders have no better taste than their clients.

AMEN roger

I used to tell the bosses "my job is to tell
you not to piss into the wind The decision is
yours"

Regarding cocobolo and white lines...politely explain the era changes in styling and let it go at just that. In today's economy the gunsmith able to turn away profitable work is a rarity. Would one turn away a re-barrel to a cartridge not in current vogue? I doubt so. Do not so elevate yourself as the "style police," it is a lonely pedestal.

There may be myriad reasons emotionally, unknown to you, why this customer wants cocobolo and white line spacers. Not your call. However, depending on your approach, the money is in the client's account, not yours. It may stay so.

My Dad had a rifle like that when I was a kid and I loved it. Can one argue that rationale? If you do you have lost a customer. This customer may be putting you to a test. Pass and many commissions may follow. Not all appreciate Harry Selby's Rigby, plastic stocks, tactical rifles, bench rest, black powder, etc., but do the work because that's what the customers want. Feeding your family is right up there, too.

Just a few observations,

Stephen

quote:

ForrestB: The truth of the matter is that many (maybe even most) custom gun builders have no better taste than their clients.

Absolutely. I sold my first "bespoke" rifles because I let some fairly prominant smiths steer me away from my ideas and as a result I was never happy with the results.

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Frith:
Regarding cocobolo and white lines...politely explain the era changes in styling and let it go at just that. In today's economy the gunsmith able to turn away profitable work is a rarity. Would one turn away a re-barrel to a cartridge not in current vogue? I doubt so. Do not so elevate yourself as the "style police," it is a lonely pedestal.


There may be myriad reasons emotionally, unknown to you, why this customer wants cocobolo and white line spacers. Not your call. However, depending on your approach, the money is in the client's account, not yours. It may stay so.

My Dad had a rifle like that when I was a kid and I loved it. Can one argue that rationale? If you do you have lost a customer. This customer may be putting you to a test. Pass and many commissions may follow. Not all appreciate Harry Selby's Rigby, plastic stocks, tactical rifles, bench rest, black powder, etc., but do the work because that's what the customers want. Feeding your family is right up there, too.

Just a few observations,

Stephen

10-4 roger

I think it's important that a gunbuilder (or anyone in the business of creating consumer products) build a BRAND that establishes expectations for his product. That means turning away business that falls outside the guardrails of the brand. I know its easier said than done when there are bills to be paid. However, everytime a builder turns away business that falls outside his brand, the value of his brand goes up.

I've told Duane Wiebe on a few occasions over the years that he shouldn't be doing some of the work he takes on because it diminishes the value of his brand. A few rifles have left his shop (marked with his name) that are far from being "Wiebe-quality" work or "Wiebe-style". They are detrimental to Wiebe's brand and detrimental to the value of his best work that resides in the hands of his best customers. (This situation is by no means unique to Duane)

Take a look at certain Jerry Fisher or Wiebe rifles from the late 70's and early 80's. The style might look a little dated now but the quality is unquestionably high and the style elements are consistent. Those rifles still look good today. You might look at them and say "that's a 70's gun" in the same way you might identify a custom rifle from the 20's, 30's, or 50's; however, if the work quality is high and the style elements are consistent then they remain highly desireable guns.

A builder should ask himself, "Self, is this something I would be proud to have my name on after I'm gone?". If the answer is no, he should attempt to guide the client or he should decline the project.

I can appreciate a thing of beauty as much as the majority of people. When it comes to rifles I have a problem defining appearance as Quality rather than performance. Who ordained whomever that pronounced white spacers,for example as being poor quality even though the rifle functions flawlessly. I guess I'm showing my lack of sophistication. OH well roger

I periodically got to dinner with clients. If I were a gunsmith instead, I would no more tell a client not to build a gun to his desires than I would tell my dinner guest his wife needs TWO bags, not one. Been tempted a time or two, though.

Forrest, point taken about upper echelon builders.

Tell them you are fresh out of stock of the spacers and cocabola and do not plan on ordering it because no one does that anymore. Normally people go with the trends.

I'm with Forrest on this one. Now days when presented with this situation I plainly tell my potential customer that I do not do that type of work. It usually works out just fine but I do still get "but your a gunsmith right?", and then I explain that I specialize in a different type of work. I want to be proud of the work I do so I pass up the jobs where the customers desires and my standards do not mesh.
Steve Bertram

"Ahh! A retro styled gun! I haven't done one like that in years, as tastes have changed, but I'd be happy to do one for you. I bet you hunted with something just like this when you were a kid."

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I can appreciate a thing of beauty as much as the majority of people. When it comes to rifles I have a problem defining appearance as Quality rather than performance. Who ordained whomever that pronounced white spacers,for example as being poor quality even though the rifle functions flawlessly. I guess I'm showing my lack of sophistication. OH well roger

You guys crack me up.

I'm sure your cows errr wives are beautiful.

Wow, must be nice having the privilege to be so fucking pompous as to turn down a client because it is beneath you to build what he wants. I understand this is America and we all have the right to turn down work (despite the economy- again bully for you).

But to turn down a client because "it doesn't suit your style" is unprofessional no matter how you cut it. I guess that comes with building form over function.....must keep up appearances. Rifles don't work worth a shit, but sure look purty...

What do I know I just work for a living and don't turn people down, not because I don't have the luxury to do so, but because it is the right thing to do.

Be careful Forrest, i tried to briefly explain branding in the custom gun forum last week and it flew over the heads of most responders. No matter what I wrote, most still do not “get it.”

This thread is part of the prime example why almost everyone needs to work for someone else and only a few need to own or business, or at least be their own boss.

FMC-I have absolutely no idea what you do for a living, but sir, your post is ridiculous and shows a complete and total lack of understanding of branding and good business practices. By your post, I can tell that you do not understand a hell of a lot about business, art, or professionalism. It is the clients you accept that sink you.

I have written many times here and in print, when you get a lead you need to do everything you can to disqualify them from becoming your client. I will not even begin to expand on that statement, as almost no one would “get it” and I am too weak to write the volume of words that would be required to get even 10% of the readers where they kinda get it.

If people spent the time studying business and art as they do defending their current beliefs then they would start to “get it” about so much in life and become far wealthier and more satisfied then they are today. But this is why almost everyone needs to work for someone else.

The post may sound harsh, but it is not intended to be so. I literally do not have the strength and energy to expound on any of this. And no matter how much I wrote, only 10% at most would get it anyway. So please believe me when I say I am not trying to be mean or put anyone down. Just stating black and white facts as briefly as possible

BTW-since I am not strong enough to write any more on this thread, please direct any of your anger at me to Forrest. It will give him something to do over the weekend

The problem with branding can be summed up by 2 commercials: the first is the Acura commercials where people throw away $ at "branded" items which makes them unique in their own eyes (phoniness)

....and.....

The Wendy's commercials of the past "where's the beef.......

Again, bully for you if you think so much of yourself to turn down a client who is beneath your "standards." (I was raised different and don't look down my nose at anyone).

Frankly IMHO you are no better than the "athlete" who is under contract and thinks so much of himself he "holds out" and doesn't play/honor his commitment because he wants more money.

If you believe the letters behind your name grant you the privilege to look down your nose at anyone who doesn't build a stalking-type Mauser rifle. Good for you!

I try to not confuse "craftsmanship" with "style".

The are 2 separate qualities and should not be confused.

If something is exquisitely made and looks, well, tacky to you there is going to be someone on the planet that it is going to be the most beautiful thing they ever laid eyes on. And that is what make the world so interesting in a lot of ways.

In general, I'm not a fan of gaudy stuff, but at least I have an appreciation for the well made and designed gaudy stuff and the cheap gaudy stuff is just, well, cheap.

So if a persons craftsmanship is up to par IMHO they can be proud of a project even if they do not personally like the particular style.

I personally turn down a number of small and large jobs. Why, because I don't want to do them. I recently got a package from a person who wanted me to weld a bolt handle to his bolt. The bolt handle was of his own making and to him was probably very nice. I put the package back together with a note saying I would not weld "that bolt handle on his bolt".

He probably does not understand, but I did not want him affixing my name to that job.

I feel that I turn out good work although some would probably disagree with me on that point. The bottom line here is I work with the client as much as possible but when it comes to something I don't want to do, I feel it is my perogative to turn it down. I have turned down a complete stock job just because I did not want to do a Fleur-dis-lis chechering pattern because I normally phuque up the petals.

And, by the way, I am not a "Gunsmith". That is a very loose term. I work on guns and consider myself a Gunmaker.

I was able to talk him out of the cocabola and white spacer look. We are going with just a classic ebony tip and metal grip cap.

As harsh as you people think Marc comes off, he makes a lot of sense. And I hear similar stories from people near me that I respect.


And just so people know I am building this rifle for a friend for no labor costs due to being a student. This rifle is going to be a big piece of my portfolio/resume.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Be careful Forrest, i tried to briefly explain branding in the custom gun forum last week and it flew over the heads of most responders. No matter what I wrote, most still do not “get it.”

This thread is part of the prime example why almost everyone needs to work for someone else and only a few need to own or business, or at least be their own boss.

FMC-I have absolutely no idea what you do for a living, but sir, your post is ridiculous and shows a complete and total lack of understanding of branding and good business practices. By your post, I can tell that you do not understand a hell of a lot about business, art, or professionalism. It is the clients you accept that sink you.

I have written many times here and in print, when you get a lead you need to do everything you can to disqualify them from becoming your client. I will not even begin to expand on that statement, as almost no one would “get it” and I am too weak to write the volume of words that would be required to get even 10% of the readers where they kinda get it.

If people spent the time studying business and art as they do defending their current beliefs then they would start to “get it” about so much in life and become far wealthier and more satisfied then they are today. But this is why almost everyone needs to work for someone else.

The post may sound harsh, but it is not intended to be so. I literally do not have the strength and energy to expound on any of this. And no matter how much I wrote, only 10% at most would get it anyway. So please believe me when I say I am not trying to be mean or put anyone down. Just stating black and white facts as briefly as possible

BTW-since I am not strong enough to write any more on this thread, please direct any of your anger at me to Forrest. It will give him something to do over the weekend

Thanks for letting us all know that you consider you yourself smarter than 90% of those who post here. It's a black and white thing, don't ya know.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
The truth of the matter is that many (maybe even most) custom gun builders have no better taste than their clients.

AMEN roger

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I personally turn down a number of small and large jobs. Why, because I don't want to do them. I recently got a package from a person who wanted me to weld a bolt handle to his bolt. The bolt handle was of his own making and to him was probably very nice. I put the package back together with a note saying I would not weld "that bolt handle on his bolt".

He probably does not understand, but I did not want him affixing my name to that job.

I feel that I turn out good work although some would probably disagree with me on that point. The bottom line here is I work with the client as much as possible but when it comes to something I don't want to do, I feel it is my perogative to turn it down. I have turned down a complete stock job just because I did not want to do a Fleur-dis-lis chechering pattern because I normally phuque up the petals.

And, by the way, I am not a "Gunsmith". That is a very loose term. I work on guns and consider myself a Gunmaker.

<sniff>
Well I just took my money had it welded elsewhere...


And the stock checkering job you turned down is turning out quite well too. It is not finished yet because when I was halfway finished I set my wood-burner tool down on the cord and the resulting fire scorched the stock pretty good, but I'll be ready to put the finishing touches on the replacement stock any day now.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Be careful Forrest, i tried to briefly explain branding in the custom gun forum last week and it flew over the heads of most responders. No matter what I wrote, most still do not “get it.”

You tried to explain Branding" last week? I must have missed it. I recall you telling how smart you were because you had a bunch of business classes that we were all to stupid to understand. And I recall you complaining about the poor reputation of Douglas barrels and that cost you a bunch of $, but they seem to be doing pretty good in spite of there poor reputation. And I recall you doing a lot of bitching about your fingers and hands hurting. (maybe if you did less tying) But I don't recall you saying anything intelligent about Branding. Funny thing is though, what Forrest said made perfect sense to me, and I didn't feel like I was being told I was to stupid to understand.

John

FMC I am in complete disagreement with you. as an employee in a position where I don't get to decide whom I work with, I'm stuck. But professionals that are able to choose their clients, just as clients choose their professionals, and are willing to take a financial hit to do so, have every right to turn down work they don't want to do. For any reason, they don't like the person, they don't like the job, they don't want people knowing they worked on that piece or for that person.

To go further, they have a responsibility to themselves and in many situations to the clients they do work for. Otherwise when they say, "my rifle was built by" the person they're talking to may not know that it means they have a great looking functional rifle. It might mean that they have a well executed dog turd.

While the saying "the client is always right" is great for customer service departments, it doesn't apply across the board. Outside of the government I don't know any business that thinks they should take on any client that comes there way. In fact, many businesses have signs posted with "reserve right to refuse service to anybody".

And I'll repeat, whatever my taste I'd rather find a person that has similar tastes and is going to enjoy working on my project than somebody that will do whatever I ask regardless. Let's say a person can truly do their best work on something they don't want to be doing, still the process will not be as enjoyable in my mind.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Be careful Forrest, i tried to briefly explain branding in the custom gun forum last week and it flew over the heads of most responders. No matter what I wrote, most still do not “get it.”

Marc
I agreed with a lot of what you said in the other thread about branding. I think the reason you "failed" to gain much support is because your impression of the difference in quality between Douglas and Shillen barrels is not inline with the general population's impression of their relative quality.

I am pretty sure several of us wondered if you realized that Douglas barrels are actually more expensive than Shilen, as you seemed to be under the impression that the only reason to go with Douglas was to save a few bucks(which you can't do, because Douglas is more expensive).

I would like to hear your opinion on this. Maybe I could call you... I won't bother you for more than a couple of minutes.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:

that's actually fairly clever.. aint pretty, but i've seen some really accurate nagants ..aint like its any uglier than an original, except the 38 .. the 38 is pretty nice

kinda long LOP

Dang! I was feeling decent this morning and logged on to see what sort of fire and fury was thrown at Forrest. Sorry to see yall let him off the hook. I was serious when I said I am not writing any more on this subject because it would just be a giant pissing match. So if you want to get in a pissing match throw it at Forrest!

Do want to clarify one thing. Know I have to be brief and folks do not remember or may have not even seen things I have written in the past here. Different people are good at different things. Everyone is good at something and has gifts that make the world better. No one is good at everything. We have a well rounded society made up of a lot of pointy people.

I myself suck at almost everything. I always use the example of music when it come to my suckiniess, as that is a glaring example of just how I can do something. My greatest strength is that I have the phone numbers of a lot of really smart people and can ask them the answer to just about any question.
I have written before that I can mathematically show how everyone on the face of the planet is equally stupid and I NEVER claim to be smarter than anyone. I do, however, know certain things that someones else may not know. For instance, I know how taking the wrong client can cost you money. I know how turning away the right prospect can cost you money. I know how taking just one wrong client can permanently affect your brand.

That in no way, shape, or form means I know more than 90% of the people. I am the first to tell people that I am not smart at all. Anyone who would post that either 1. has not actually read what I have written, 2. has reading comprehension issues (which likely means they have some very good skills in other areas that folks who do understand the writing don't have) , 3. is looking to stir up trouble, 4. well, I am not going to write it.

I just wanted to clear that up for any new folks or people who have not read anything I have written in the past. I have never, at any time, claimed to be smarter than a single soul on the face of this planet.


JB-if you were serious, email me via the address in my profile.

When my oldest son was in high school and going through a rebellious stage, he attended a school with a dress code. Among the rules was one which stated that boys' hair should not touch the collar of their shirts. My son went to our local barber and asked him to shave one side of his head and leave the other side normal. The barber agreed to do it, only if my son would agree not to tell anyone which barber he used.

That said, one of the pleasures of owning a Biesen stock, a Shelhamer stock, a Hoffman Arms stock, a Linden stock, a Louis Wundhammer stock, a Griffin & Howe stock, or a stock made by any "name" gun maker is that of owning a work of art by a master who is treating a job the way he thinks it should be done. Who would want an imitation Rembrandt painted by Picasso at the request of a client?

Keeping a album of the work you are proud of to show prospective clients might be a good idea, and if they want something else, another book of other gunmakers' work might point them in the right direction. I what he wants is an Anthony Guymon Streamliner stock (I'm showing my age now--http://jeffersonian.name/g1956/G0156.pdf, page 6), point him in the right direction and wish him good luck. It might cost you a job now and then, but not your reputation.