Okay y'all, I need to gather some informed opinions from some real shooters not just theorists.

Over the years, I have built a number of nice rifles on Ruger No.1, Hi-Wall, P-14, Siamese Mauser,and other actions, chambered for Rimmed cases.

I am feeling the urge to build yet a couple more.

If you folks were gonna build two such rifles, one of .25 to .35 calibre, and the other with a bore somewhat bigger than .35, which currently availble action(s) would you use, and for which RIMMED cartridges would you chamber them?

Object of both rifles is FUN, pure & simple. As such, they need to work reliably, shoot with at least hunting accuracy (whatever that may be to you) and be comfortable(not just "bearable") to shoot at least 50 rounds per day.

Okay, have at it...WHAT? And, WHY those two?

Probably not exactly what you were thinking but if fun is the criteria I'd have a Lewis in .303 and a Gatlin in .45-70.

I've always wanted a Martini & Hagn. Maybe a 416/500?

.307 winchester. Original chambering in the m94 win. Ballistically equal to the .308 win. I think the .307 in any action would be great if you are looking for a rimmed cart. Furthermore, you could neck it down to a 7mm and have a 7mm-07 wildcat!

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Probably not exactly what you were thinking but if fun is the criteria I'd have a Lewis in .303 and a Gatlin in .45-70.

A couple of good fun choices, but not exactly within the realm of current availability to me.

I do appreciate where you're coming from, though.

I really like the looks and feel of a Ruger #1. as for calibers, 30-40 Krag and 45-70 would be my two choices for what you want to do. The 30-40 is easy to load and can be loaded to near 06 level. The 45-70 is just plain fun to shoot. You can shoot it all day and not have any side effects, using factory equivilant loads of course.

For rimmed cases the .303 British and the .45-70 have to be favorites....honorable consideration to the .30-40 Krag and the .444 Marlin.
Action for me is the Ruger #1. This is a beautuful styled action and when properly built will shoot very well.

A Martini & Hagn chambered in 7x75 Vom Hofe

A real Farquharson chambered for something I haven't quite thought of yet.

How 'bout a Ruger #1 chambered in (don't laugh) 7.62x54R or an "Ackley" version of the same. Pretty good case capacity. You could have it throated for longer/heavier bullets if you wanted. The variety of 30 cal bullets is very good. I'm thinkin' it might come close to a sorta rimmed version of an -06. Okay, you can laugh now.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
How 'bout a Ruger #1 chambered in (don't laugh) 7.62x54R or an "Ackley" version of the same. Pretty good case capacity. You could have it throated for longer/heavier bullets if you wanted. The variety of 30 cal bullets is very good. I'm thinkin' it might come close to a sorta rimmed version of an -06. Okay, you can laugh now.

Craigster - Now, that is a GOOD suggestion. I've got several spare Mike Rock barrels available to fit & chamber, loading dies, a ton of bullets, lots of boxer primed brass (Prvi Partisan), the whole nine yards. Even have a couple hundred new unfired Lapua lying here somewhere. And, it IS a heck of a good cartridge. Easily loaded to the same external ballistics as the factory .30-'06.

Might be even more fun if a guy opened it up to take .338" bullets a la the .33 Winchester, or to .358" bullets as sort of a modern-day .35 Winchester.

AC,
Yeah, I thought it might be fun. Sounds like all you need is a reamer. IIRC there's also a Russian 9.3 version out there that is the 54R case necked up, but I can't recall the exact nomenclature of the round.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
How 'bout a Ruger #1 chambered in (don't laugh) 7.62x54R or an "Ackley" version of the same. Pretty good case capacity. You could have it throated for longer/heavier bullets if you wanted. The variety of 30 cal bullets is very good. I'm thinkin' it might come close to a sorta rimmed version of an -06. Okay, you can laugh now.

Craigster...dad-gum it! Now you've got me thinkin', figgerin', conjurin', all that sorta strange (to me) stuff, and it hurts!

How's this sound? How about taking part of Mousegun's idea, and part of yours, and putting the two together? Make a 7 m/m on the 7.62x54 case, with an Ackley-style 35 or 40 degree shoulder? Or even a .25 the same way? I've always really liked the .25 Ackley Krag, and this would be the same sort of thing, only with stronger, bigger brass. In a nice Ruger no.1, with about a 4x16-X piece of glass, THAT should be a far-rock-killer, rock-chucker (hoary marmot to you "eddycated" types) rifle, and antelope gun par excellance.

But now, what can you come up with for a larger than .35 cartridge idea? My own first thought is another Ruger No. 1, in .450/.400 3-1/4"......

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
AC,
Yeah, I thought it might be fun. Sounds like all you need is a reamer. IIRC there's also a Russian 9.3 version out there that is the 54R case necked up, but I can't recall the exact nomenclature of the round.

Now that you mention it, the Russians also had a .35 caliber round on that case (the 9x54-R) which was popular with USSR-licensed professional hunters in Siberia, on an action essentially the same as the Dragunov. I think they called that rifle the "Medved", or something like that. Anyway, the name suppossedly meant "bear" in Russian.

I tried to buy one from the Russian booth at the 1999 S.H.O.T. Show but they got very upset when I even mentioned it...like it was some sort of State Secret or something. I ended up talking with a female interpreter and three VERY unsmiling "Suits" for a while. I took that to be a very firm "Nyet", so I excused myself and ambled on. Would still be fun to have the equivalent in either a No. 1 or a HiWall.

I also think the 7.62x54R is a neat cartridge and am considering it for my next somewhat different long range target rifle. It is, after all, essentially the 7.5 Swiss with a rim and should be a pretty good performer. Just a little more than the 308 and a little less than the 30/06.
For an action I would probably use one of the P14s I have lying around. My 303 target rifle built on a modified P14 has worked out pretty well but is limited by match bullet selection (1). A 30 cal is a bit better from that standpoint with a nearly unlimited selection and the 7.62x54 would be capable of somewhat higher velocities. To me, using "oddball" cartridges makes competition more fun. Regards, Bill.

Gee, Bill - It's been a heap of years since I've seen one of those P-14 purpose-built DCRA target rifles in .303 Brit. My problem in using the .303 at long range wasn't bullets or inherent accuracy, but WAS wind drift! Seems the old .303 round had about twice the drift at 1,000 yards as did the 7.62 NATO, or maybe that just my remembered/rehearsed alibi [G].

Anyway, a P-14 or a Siamese Mauser in 7.62x54-R WOULD be an interesting TR Class rifle, wouldn't it.....?
(Hope your Spring is getting there more quickly than ours.)

My idea of fun rifles is something that will be used for both jacketed and cast bullet shooting. For cast shooting, a smaller case is generally friendlier, and in that case I'd have to build something as a 30-30. Fun is also a single shot, no rush or fuss, just load one at a time. As much as I like the Ruger #1, it just seems like too hefty of a rifle chambered in a 30-30, though that would perhaps be helped by a slimmer stock. The other option would be a browning hi-wall for the 30-30.

Now for something bigger. I'd go with one of the 400 Nitro Expresses. A ruger #1 in a NE is a very classy combo. The 40 cal NE can be loaded with cast or jacketed pistol bullets for mucho fun low recoil plinker loads, and loaded with 400 gr softs or solids to take any game that can be hunted.

Well

Those I would consider are:
6X62R Frères
6,5X68R
7X65R
7X75R
8x65R
8X75RS
9,3X65R Brenneke
450 3-1/4
470 NE

Albert,

If you are going to build something based off the x54r case, why not simply get your hands on a Mosin of some kind and start there?

Granted, Mosins don't lend themselves to scoping as easily as a Mauser or Enfield, but for the price of the Mosins currently on the market, why not try it? These little actions are hell for stout and you'll have a magazine system that works for the cartridge already. Stocks aren't a problem if you look around.

I kind of like the idea of a 9x54r or 10x54r, but I'm weird like that.

Just my $.02.

Tex

The Moison magazines will not be easily modified to allow chambering a larger dia bullet on the same case. Too bad, as a 35X54 would be a slick round.

Perhaps I should list here a few of the Rimmed cartridge rifles I already have on hand...

- Ruger No. 1 in 6.5x53R (basically a rimmed 6.5x54 M/S case...known in the old days in the colonies and later in the Commonwealth as the 256 Mannlicher)

- Ruger No. 1 in 7x65R (basically a rimmed .280 Rem)

-Ruger No. 1 in 9.5x57-R

- Cased double rifle in 9.3 x 74R (w/spare set of barrels in 12 gauge)

-Winchester lever rifles in .25-35, 356 Win, .38-40 Win, .38-55 Win, 45-70 Gov't.

-Marlin lever rifles in .375 Win, .444 Marlin

-Savage lever gun in .303 Savage

-Other single shots in .22 Hornet, .22 Ack Hornet, .218 Bee, .219 Don Wasp, .220 Swift (2), .30-40 Krag (a Ruger No. 3), .32-40 Win

- Engraved Remington M25 original CARBINE in .32-20 (with which, in 1967, my wife killed her first deer)

-Misc. bolt rifles in .17 Ack Hornet, .225 Win, .256 Mannlicher (Hembrug carbine brought back by my uncle from W.W. II), 7.62x54, .405 Winchester (on an '03 Springfield!)

I know I've left some out, but didn't sit down and make a list before I typed this.

Thanks, Paul, for the second on the motion of one of the .400 flanged rounds. I once had an original Farky out of Africa in .450/400 3-1/4" and like so many other guns, have NO idea why I ever sold it. The Ruger No 1 in that cartridge sounds better than ever.

Do you happen to know if there is any reason why a Ruger #3 action wouldn't be as suitable for that as a No. 1 is? I have a friend in K-Falls who likes to put #1 levers on them and calls them a "Ruger #2". I have a spare No. 3 action, so that would save me hustling around for another No. 1 to cannibalize.

AC,
I just filled a 54R case to the top with H335, 68grs. A 308 filled holds 58grs. I would guess that any round based on the 54R case would better the ballistics of any of the rounds based on the 308. You could just start your own little family of wildcat Rooskies.

Thanks, Craigster. I knew the Russians commonly loaded some of their 7.62x54 ammo to (or above) our factory .30-'06 levels, even for use in the Moisin-Nagants, but I didn't realize capacity was a full 10 grains more than the .308, "Veerryyy interesting" as Mssr. Johnson used to say

I never considered the #3 because they just aren't commonly availble. I wouldn't want one with the original stock in a 450 400 though!

I didn't see a 30-30 in the listl, and think it would be a fun round, especially for cast. That said, something off the 7.62X54 case would be neat, especially as I find it a really neat looking case.

I would wait until Karl Webber brings out his Farqy style action and have a rifle built in .450-400-3" to weigh 9.5 lbs. scoped and this would be my "big" gun. My second choice would be a Martini-Hagn rifle in 9.3x74R and I am seriously considering culling my roughly three dozen rifles and buying one of these for most of my B..C. hunting. For a light, inexpensive rifle, a 7x65R on that Miller action from Dakota looks pretty neat.

Paul -

Yes, the .30-30 IS fun, I agree with you. Not only that, used with care and within its range limits it is a very effective cartridge. God only knows how many elk & moose have been killed with it, as well as 100-car trains-full of deer.

The reason you don't see one on my list is beause I stupidly sold my M-54 Winchester 30-30 to somone who wanted it enough to hand me a lot of money once when I needed cash. Rather than build another on a single shot action, I hope to one of these days get another M54 in that chambering. I also had a Contender "Super-14" in that cartridge until recently, but when I got my .30 Herrett Super-14, I sold the .30-30 barrel as pretty much redundant. Have also owned a couple of M-64's in .30-30, one with the shotgun butt, and the other an earlier one with the "rifle" butt-plate.

I also agree the No. 3 buttstock can be a tad abusive, recoil-wise. The bigger problem for me is the danged S-shaped lever on those things. Just mutilates my middle finger when used with healthy recoiling rifles. I've been thinking of making my own levers which would replace trigger guard too, and follow the curve of the pistol grip down to just beyond the pistol grip cap (of a new home-made custom stock), and maybe be capped with a small knurled ball.

Luckily I occasionally have access to a CNC mill AND have a friend who is MUCH more skilled than I at programming it (teaching that is one of the things he does for a living). Have only been intending to do that for 9 or 10 years! Now, if I can ever get around to it....

Kutenay -

Thanks for reminding me of the Miller. I'm scheduled to get one of those from Dakota in early '06 (has been on order for 6 years now). I still haven't decided on a cartridge for it as they haven't made the action yet.

Am strongly considering the .33 Miller Short (.32 Miller Short opened to take .338 diameter bullets.) But, depending on what ideas I end up getting from all you guys, I could put something suggested here on it. Is that action amenable to cartridges as long as the basic 7.62x54 Russky case?

I don't know, just found out about it a few weeks ago, so, I would phone and ask. I have never seen or heard of a 64 with a rifle butt, I just scored a gorgeous '50s vintage STD. rifle with a Lyman tang sight, I have wanted one for close on 50 yrs!

Another rifle that fits in here is Adolph Hagn's dropblock double rifle in say 9.3x74R, lots of money, but a work of genius AND a practical hunter as well. A guy I know hunts with Hagn and has a custom singleshot by him. I quite honestly wouldn't buy any bolt rifle from him that I have ever seen, but, the single and double rifles are superb.

The double Hagn that I saw a few years back at the gunsmith guild show in Reno had both barrels made from one block of steel. I'd be curious to know how that was regulated. Whitworth did the same thing with percussion rifles and I have one which I have never got to shoot right despite having original Whitworth moulds.

AC,

I picked up a blued contender frame, and plan to pick up a 30-30 carbine barrel to start the kids out with. I figure 115 gr cast for mild starters, then work up. Heck, I'd like to use it for our blacktail tail, and really no reason not to use it on Caribou.

AC,
I am planning to put together a 33 Winchester on a Number1 for a Calgary hunter later this year. Will make a neat old timey hunting rifle. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
AC,

I picked up a blued contender frame, and plan to pick up a 30-30 carbine barrel to start the kids out with. I figure 115 gr cast for mild starters, then work up. Heck, I'd like to use it for our blacktail tail, and really no reason not to use it on Caribou.

Paul, I think that is a good choice. If you have the opportunity, you might also consideer a .30 Herrett barrel on that frame. For whatever reason(s), I have found it much easier to get really good accuracy, particularly with cast bullets, from the Herrett chambering.

Cases are easily made from .30-30 ( or .32-40, 38-55, 32 Win Spcl) brass, and ballistics are equal to .30-30 ballistics or a bit better. The .357 Herrett, which is the same case opened to .35, is also a primo blacktail/caribou swatter and does okay on run-of-the-mine black bears, too.

Of course, it is much easier, and usually less expensive, to find a good .30-30 barrel.

Sounds like a real good gun for the youngster, the oldster, or the just plain "woods-loafer" to me. Handy for a canoe/small boat rifle, too, if you guys use those around where you are.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
AC,
I am planning to put together a 33 Winchester on a Number1 for a Calgary hunter later this year. Will make a neat old timey hunting rifle. Regards, Bill.

-----------------


Bill - Another very nice "using" gun.

Better tell him to lay away some Hornady 200 gr. FPs if he can find any. I understand Hornady is discontinuing that particular bullet due to lack of demand...and they may have been one of the only sources for a good quality 200 gr .338 flat-point out there. I have had a couple of .33 Winchesters, including one "transitional" Model 71 in that chambering. Yes, Virginia, right at the beginning of the Model 71, a few did escape the factory, whether in lunch boxes or otherwise, with .33 Winchester barrels instead of the .348 barrels. (The whole M71 .348 idea was basically an update of the M '86 extra light weight .33 anyway.)

I've still got a set of RCBS .33 Win dies, hoping that now that I have better sense than to sell such a fine working gun, I will be lucky enough to eventually acquire another.

Twenty years ago, I knew an old Belgian immigrant here in Vancouver who shot a lovely Westley-Richards-Mannlicher in .375 Nitro Express and his "backup" was a Mod. 71, in .33 Win. I saw and handled this rifle and it was lovely, the WR was not too shabby, either!

A couple others you might consider are the 348 Winchester, 33 Winchester, or 7-30 Waters. I would strongly reccomend a 444 Marlin for the "fun to shoot all day" criteria, but I see you already have one.

Alberta Canuck,

The good old 303 is a fantastic round and if you went bigger, then the 375 Flanged would be a nice round. Bigger ones need to go into double rifles in my very amateur opinion. For an action, the custom sidelevers mae here by Huntingcat would be fabulous and probably among the most exclusive in the world considering their sheer rarity and beauty.

It was nice to see you mention the Medved rifle. The 9x54 R was made on semi auto as well as bolt rifles and though the Russians have recently started going to the 9.3x64 in their Tigr rifles, there have been rumours on some of the Russian forums that the Medveds would be brought back sometime. If they do bring them back, you can be sure that they would get exported to the US. They were beautiful rifles and worked extremely well. I have seen them in Moscow where a friend of mine who was a senior official had one. The Soviets also had some beautiful "Best Quality" double shotguns with hinged front triggers and gold plated inside parts and Carcano 91 gave me a link to a website where some of those are listed http://www.shipunov.com

Best wishes with your project and do let us know what you would decide on finally.

Mehulkamdar -

Thank YOU for the good news that the Russians are even considering bringing back the 9x54 Medved. That rifle on the semi-auto Kalashnikov design like they used to sell in the East (of Russia, that is) was a fine practical hunting rig, and I've wanted an original one for about 20 years. I think the "Saiga" they sell in the U.S. now is basically the same rifle, but isn't available in that chambering.

I did have a Westley Richards sidelock double rifle in the .375 (H&H) flanged, and it was a good rifle. Also had a number of 375x2-1/2" bolt guns, including a REALLY nice Dan'l Fraser take-down on a '98 Mauser, with the "Fraser Patent Trigger" and a Zeiss 2-1/2-X scope in a proprietary Fraser QD mount...express sights on the barrel and a two-bead front sight. That's the sight where you have a small gold bead normally, but can flip up a full 3/16" diameter genuine ivory bead for dim light applications.

Speaking of Westley Richards, I also had a cased WR hand-detachable box lock double in like-new condition, in .450/.400 3-1/4". As you know, that length was originally a black powder cartridge, but they DID make and proove rifles in that .450.400 3-1/4" cartridge length for Nitro powders too, and mine was one of the nitro ones. I had an acquaintance who was a veterinarian from Nebraska but practicing in west Edmonton, Alberta that talked me out of that one (and a couple of nice English double shotguns), not to mention a fantastic Beretta S-4 which once belonged to World Champion trap shooter Johnny Primrose. I sold/gifted them to him for a total of less than $750, because I viewed him as a very good friend. After he got the guns I never heard from or saw him again. Live & learn.

My vote

8,5x63R and 9,3x65R

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Okay y'all, I need to gather some informed opinions from some real shooters not just theorists.

Over the years, I have built a number of nice rifles on Ruger No.1, Hi-Wall, P-14, Siamese Mauser,and other actions, chambered for Rimmed cases.

I am feeling the urge to build yet a couple more.

If you folks were gonna build two such rifles, one of .25 to .35 calibre, and the other with a bore somewhat bigger than .35, which currently availble action(s) would you use, and for which RIMMED cartridges would you chamber them?

Object of both rifles is FUN, pure & simple. As such, they need to work reliably, shoot with at least hunting accuracy (whatever that may be to you) and be comfortable(not just "bearable") to shoot at least 50 rounds per day.

Okay, have at it...WHAT? And, WHY those two?

How about a nice 8X75RS? Pretty close to the 8mm Rem. Mag., and in a nice, LOOOONG rimmed case.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
Twenty years ago, I knew an old Belgian immigrant here in Vancouver who shot a lovely Westley-Richards-Mannlicher in .375 Nitro Express and his "backup" was a Mod. 71, in .33 Win. I saw and handled this rifle and it was lovely, the WR was not too shabby, either!

The M71 was never made BY WIN. in ANY CALIBER except .348 Win........ Was this M71 a CUSTOM CHAMBERING??

Sorry, El D - But the M71 WAS made,(at least a few) in .33 Winchester as well as the .348. It was never catalogued in anything but the .348, but during the couple of years right at the introduction of the M71, a few WERE made in .33 Winchester, and I used to own one such.

It is not clear historically whether such rifles were all Winchester special orders (which was possible for a long while), or simply a way of disposing of already made barrels which had been intended for use on M'86s, but it DID occur. At least one book on Winchester collecting also notes that ocurance, though it doesn't appear to be generally well known.

There's lots of stuff that doesn't appear as common knowledge that DID regularly occur. For instance, did you know it was still possible to get a NEW PRE-WAR M70 action from Winchester as late as 1971? Custom Gun Shop in Edmonton, Alberta, then owned by Erv Heiman and Doug Paul, used to send many old Winchester actions in to New Haven for re-barreling in the early 1970's. Their instructions to the folks at Winchester were pretty simple...put on any of the older barrels which had not sold well, which were lying around in the parts bins and which were appropriate to the bolt face of that particular action. Actions they got back included ones which Winchester rebarreled to .300 Savage (and which I could have bought for $150, sob), .220 Swift, .257 Roberts, and others, all long discontinued Winchester chamberings.

Anyway, one day in 1971 or '72 a fellow brought in a pre-war actioned Model 70 (clover-leaf tang), with the rear receiver bridge cracked its full length...pretty obviously a forging flaw. He was warned that although it would probably be replaced free of charge by Winchester, the action he would get was VERY likely to be one of the later ones, which would have a differently shaped tang and would require some stock work.

He was okay with that, so the barreled action was sent to Winchester. It returned some weeks later, with a BRAND-NEW pre-war clover-leaf tang action!

One of the things a collector learns early on about Winchester, and many other makers, is to never say "Winchester NEVER did so-and-so"....because they probably did, at least a few times.

They DID, for instance make a few M70 FW rifles in .358 Winchester, in 1959! There were 200, to be exact, made for sale only through their dealers in Canada. I owned one of them and brought it back to the 'States with me in 1982.
The idiot (and not too honest either) to whom I sold it yanked the barrel off and put it on a 1955 action he had which was originally a .243, and then sold THAT as an original, which of course it wasn't. He put the .243 barrel on the action which HAD been the original Canadian-sale .358 and sold it back to me. Of course, I recognized the serial number when I entered it in my dealer's book, so what he had done was obvious to me.