The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Opening up a M98 magazine.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
Hello. Does anybody have any thoughts about how much a Mauser M98 magazine/action can be opened up?? I know this is a sensitive issue, but I belive it has been done a lot of times. How much steel has to be left behind the bottom recoil-lug?? | ||
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| one of us |
Arild, I have long thought of cutting the back wall of one box straight across (i.e. the piece removed would include the back wall, plus the rear part of the sides of the magazine) and cutting the center part of the back wall [only] from another box; then welding the 1st piece of metal across the back of the 2nd box. If you get my drift, this would be the same as moving the back wall back, by the thickness of the back wall, about 1/8." You would have to get rid of the 'tab' part of the box that locks into the action. This would allow you to use the maximum rearward length of the loading port. The modification would work easily only with a hinged box, where the rear wall is just flat and there is no locking button mechanism. The front of the magazine box can have quite a bit of metal removed with a dremel tool, some tear-drop shaped bits, and small sanding drums / stones. Tonight when I get home, I will do some measuring and give you an estimate of how much this would give you in total mag box length. What are you trying to fit? I was thinking of this for an 8x68. Todd | |||
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| <G.Malmborg> |
quote:Allen, What does that mean exactly? Malm | ||
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| <allen day> |
A lot of guys who call themselves gunsmiths are under-trained, ill-trained, and/or greatly under-equipped to properly handle fine riflesmithing. They lack the theory, the education, andthey are incapable of the execution. I visted a small-town butcher shop not too long ago that underscored than reality all too well. For these guys, setting up a Mauser properly is simply too much, but they'll bullshit themselves and they'll try to bullshit you to the contrary. The great riflesmiths like a Burgess or a Penrod or a Belk or a Heilman or an Echols or a Miller are the rarity, not the norm, but unfortunately doing Mausers (or Model 70s, etc.) requires that kind of skill if you want a really and truly well-made rifle. If you don't want to spend much, a good factory rifle is a better bargain than a mauser that's been reworked in a half-assed manner. AD | ||
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| <JBelk> |
By Golly, Allen!! First you lump me in with the greats and then you haul off and say something I totally agree with!! Allen said-- quote:This is a great day!! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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| one of us |
There are an awful lot of Mauser sporter conversions out there to cartridges like the .300 Winchester. There must be a lot of other members who have some experience with having the original magazines reworked to accommodate and feed the larger cartridges. Are there any of you who have successfully gotten such cartridges to feed through the original magazines? Or is allan day correct, that it is just a waste of time to attempt it, and that anyone who wants to chamber a Mauser for, say, .300 Winchester had better plan to buy and install a new magnum magazine and floorplate for $415? | |||
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| <G.Malmborg> |
quote:I meant in reference to this particular piece of the quote? Malm | ||
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| one of us |
BigBrass, I'd say it is possible to set up a Mauser 98 military action and mag box to feed belted magnums flawlessly. After a little careful tweaking, I have one, and I'm sure many other members of this forum have one too. It doesn't hold five, it holds three. The follower is s slightly altered one from PME (for belted mags). You don't need to spend a million dollars to have a decent rifle that functions like it should. Todd | |||
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One of Us |
quote:That may be true but the average Mauser in its original form is still twice the rifle that most factory rifles are today. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <allen day> |
I always say that if anyone wants the most rifle for least money, the best plan is to get a pre-64 Model 70, top it with a good scope, and go hunting. Especially in .270, .30-06, .300 H&H, and .375 H&H the pre-64 Model 70 simply can't be beat for the price, and the old Browning High-Power is right up there with it. I should elaborate a little on the magazine/feeding issue. When Paul Mauser came up with his great 98-pattern action, he designed it as a complete system - from the external extractor to the magazine box assembly - and every part of this action was designed to work together for absolute, 100% reliable function and durability under all weather conditions. You can't applaud it's extractor/ejection system, for example, then pretend that the correct dimensions of the magazine box and follower don't really matter - far from it; they are at least as critical if you want the action to live up to the integrity of its original design and to it's full potential. You can slide into denial and pretend it all doesn't matter, but it does.....it surely does. I'll site examples to prove the point. Here's a story of two custom .338 Win. Mag. rifles that two friends of mine own and have for years. Both were built on 1909 Argentine Mauser actions, and both were built as plain-but-best-grade, full-house custom rifles by well-known gunmakers, of whom I'll name only one. Both rifles were commissioned, by intent, to be used as serious hunting rifles, not collector's rifles. One of the rifles was built with an extensive list of metal refinements, but for some reason, the metalsmith left the original 7.65 Argentine magazine box as-is. He opened the bolt face, altered the feed rails and extractor and modified the feed ramp, but otherwise the feeding system was unaltered. You know that something's amiss as soon as you open the action since the original magazine follower juts up into the bolt raceway. The magazine holds three-down, but it's a struggle to fit them in the box, and the cartridges tend to lurch and seize on their way to the chamber. Work the action hard and fast and often all of the cartridges will eject out of the magazine box and through the loading port all at once! The man who owns it hates this rifle bitterly, even though he paid over $6,000 to have it built, and he's never hunted with it, seldom looks at it, and doesn't even want to mess with getting it fixed. He also owns a $400 Ruger in .338 that feeds much better. What an ugly paradox! My other friend's .338 on an '09 action was built by the David Miller Company years ago. Miller threw the original box and follower away and replaced it with a new unit that was built and carefully calculated to provide exactly the correct stack-angle for the .338 Win. Mag. cartridge, plus hold five-down. This rifle feeds effortlessly and with an absolute sureness and reliability that seems like magic. It has been used literally around the world to take over 200 big game animals, and it's good-to-go for the next twenty years of hunting, at least. The owner loves this rifle with a passion and would never sell it. His son will own it and hunt with it someday. Talk about getting your money's worth on a custom rifle....... Proper boxes and followers for Mauser actions can be obtained from Ted Blackburn (I don't have his phone number), the last I heard. Then you'll need a riflesmith who understands it all to correctly install the parts. D'Arcy Echols also makes his own boxes for Mausers and Model 70s, and these are machined from soild, heat-treated stainless steel, but they're only available if you order a complete rifle. If the magzine issue wasn't an issue, guys like Blackburn and Miller and Echols wouldn't bother with new boxes, believe me. AD [ 02-12-2003, 20:29: Message edited by: allen day ] | ||
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Moderator |
I've long held the sentiment that Allen does in regards to that if one wants to make a hunting rifle on a mauser action, for the same price as a new factory rifle, you'll end up with an inferior product. I do think the mauser action makes for a fine hunting rifle, but you'll have to invest the coin to make it a fine rifle. | |||
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| <JBelk> |
To further demonstrate what Allen said about the M-98 being a total system remember this--- When Mauser Werkes made a sporting rifle for the 7x57 cartridge, the action and magazine were DIFFERENT than the exact same rifle made in 8x57. It absolutely flabergast me that people with a M-98 in a cartridge other than what it was originally made for thinks it "feeds perfectly" with the new round. It DOESN'T. The fact that it feeds at all is a tribute to P. Mauser's genius.......and luck. I also agree with the most economical, dependable, and valuable pure hunting rifle readily available to US shooters is a pre-64 M-70 in a caliber made from the -06 case or H&H. They can't be beat for double the money. | ||
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Malm, Allen was actually talking about my shop! He has it backwards though. It's actually my wife who trips over toolboxes, shooting rests, welder and old barrels and stocks, on her way to the clothes dryer and washer! Regards, Bill. | |||
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| <G.Malmborg> |
Whew! I was getting a little worried. I thought perhaps that he had strolled through my shop. There is so much stuff to trip over, I purposely keep laundry laying around to provide padding for when I fall. Thanks Bill.... Malm | ||
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quote:Paul H: is it the feeding problems in particular that cause the trouble; or are there other problems as well? [ 02-12-2003, 21:34: Message edited by: BigBrass ] | |||
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one of us |
JBelk, Since I wasn't able to cover feeding issues in the claases I took, and God only knows when I'll be able to get back into another class, are there any resources pertaining to Mauser feeding that I can use as a guide. One of the projects I had slated was a .338 Win Mag. Getting five down isn't as important to me as reliable feeding. Three down is enough for me but hangups are unacceptable. Is getting the Blackburn metal the only option? Thanks in advance, -M | |||
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Whatever happened to Whitetail Mfg? They were making either a box and follower or complete bottom metal to do M98 conversions to belted mag. I believe it resolved issues by being single stack. | |||
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one of us |
Interesting thread. I completely agree with the M98 magazine boxes requiring appropriate dimensions for proper stacking and feeding. This gets all the more critical the larger the cartridge. Luckily this math isn't very complicated. The problem is the manufacture of a complete new box and bottom metal to these dimensions. I personally don't have this level of skill yet. Schuler solved some of these problems with their single stack magazines for the 500 Schuler/jeffery. I've seen a few of these and they are works of art, although they do extend below the floorplate. I'm currently discussing remanufacturing them for use on the CZ550 as a basis for really big cartridges like the 600 OK. On a CZ550 you basically run out of action room once you exceed the dimensions of a 500 Jeff. For example, a 585NYATI or 600 OK is essentially a two round in the box system at max. Forget about stacking, it's nearly a single stack as is. I've looked at the whitetail single stack stuff and seriously doubt it will feed a 30-06 properly. The followers were made of sheet steel without even basic bevelling and shaping. No thanks.-Rob | |||
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| One of Us |
Allen, Please don't take this as a disparaging remark, but with all your experience you must be 7 feet tall and bullet-proof; or is it 5'4" and bul$hit. Damn, how can one man be so damned opinionated? | |||
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EXCELLENT THREAD! You all made Paul Mauser proud! Allen I'm going to print out your post & whenever folks ask about a mag on a M98 done on the cheap I'll just hand it to them so I don't have to stand there explaining this to them. Three mag cases held together with two little rubber bands really gets the message across. Most folks just need a little education. | |||
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| <JBelk> |
Doug--- I use groups of three dummies epoxied together to check rail and box dimensions. It's also good to show a customer the BIG difference there is between what he wants in the box and what the box was made for. Just hand him a bundle of 8x57 and the bundle of his xxx super magnums. "You want to put what, where??" | ||
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| <allen day> |
Jim, evidently I said something you didn't like. Maybe we'll bump into each other at a hunting convention sometime and you can find out if I'm '5'4" and bullshit' first-hand...... How'd I get so opinionated? The answer is simple: When I was younger and knew a whole lot more than I know now, I ended up with about three too many disappointing custom rifles that were poorly put together, plus I've seen several similar flops that my friends had hired built - my friend's turkey .338 being one of them. As a client, if you've been on the receiving end of expensive, disfunctional custom work, you can either get out of the custom rifle world altogether, or else you can get to work and figure out how to avoid future disappointments, which is the route I chose to follow. AD | ||
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| Moderator |
quote:Just run the #'s. Take a $100 donor action, have it d/t'd for scope mount, weld on a new handle, put on a new safety, and do some clean up machine work, You are now looking at a $300-400 action, that will feed the 7 or 8X57 that it was designed for well, but still needs the mag lengthened for anything based on an -06. Even if you go with a Midway or Shaw barrel, you are still adding $200 to the $300-400 action, and it isn't even blued yet. With the cheap barrel, and factory magazine, you have a barreled action that will cost as much as a factory gun, and accuracy will be on par with a factory rifle. Now, if you factor in $500 for the action, $500 for a good barrel and blueing the whole job, you have a $1000 barrelled action, that definately will be better then a factory rifle. But, you still need to figure on new bottom metal, so you are up to $1400. Adding a plastic stock is a sin on mauser, so a fair piece of wood wittled to size will set you back say $1500. You now have a $3k custom rifle, something you will be proud of, something that will be much better then a factory rifle, but also something that costs much more. | |||
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one of us |
Jim, evidently I said something you didn't like. Maybe we'll bump into each other at a hunting convention sometime and you can find out if I'm '5'4" and bullshit' first-hand...... I certainly hope that wasn't a threat to one of the members of our boards. [ 02-13-2003, 19:52: Message edited by: alvinmack5 ] | |||
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| <allen day> |
Alvinmacks, I don't make threats, but I don't back away from any either. Nor do I let some transparent (and self-incriminating), back-handed slap slide, especially when I let it go the first time around, and you know exactly what I mean by that. Now if you want to jump into this somehow, shoot your mouth off, and dump fuel on some long smouldering fire, by all means, proceed Sir. My advice it this: Don't trouble Trouble, 'til Trouble, troubles you......... AD | ||
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Gentlemen, gentlemen. We are all brothers in a shooting fraternity; there is no need to exchange insulting or threatening personal remarks. I appreciate the information that you have all provided on this thread; but it is very discouraging to me, because I am waiting to receive my first custom-made rifle, based on a reworked VZ-24 Mauser action, with a Shilen barrel, chambered in .300 Winchester. The 'smith who is working on it is simply reworking the original magazine for the .300 Winchester cartridge. No one said anything about needing new bottom metal for $400. The 'smith is quite experienced with Mauser conversion projects, and has a good reputation; but I gather from this thread that I am probably going to have feeding problems after I receive the rifle. What a bummer! Of the shooters who posted, only Todd Getzen seems to think that a good 'smith can make the rifle feed this cartridge with the original magazine. I hope you are right, Todd. | |||
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| one of us |
Big Brass, You may or may not have feeding problems. If the gunsmith is indeed familiar with doing 98 conversions and does a good job on them then it may work out just fine. I would rather work at getting the M98 to feed well with a cartridge for which it was not originally designed, than I would most modern actions. Quite frankly, I have always enjoyed good success with the 98's( and their commercial variations)and the pre-64 M70s. This in spite of (in recent years)having a shop in close proximity to the washer and dryer! I don't like to open up the 98s for 375 length cartridges anymore preferring to stick with the 2.5 inch brass as a practical max. I love the 375 Chatfield-Taylor (375/338)in a 98 and would do it for myself in preference to a 375H&H in a 98. Likewise, I like the 416 Taylor and dislike the 416 Remington in the 98. If one want to build a 98 based rifle in one of the long cartridges then a lengthened action is the way to IMO. Regards, Bill. | |||
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| one of us |
At last!! I was about to give up any answer to my question now, but at last someone (Bill Leeper) took the discusion back on the right track. I know there is A LOT of knowledge about M98's out there, and thats good!! Thats why I asked, but some of you missed the question. And YES!, the reason I ask is about the use of heavier bullets in a 8x68S. [ 02-14-2003, 01:10: Message edited by: 460wby ] | |||
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| <JBelk> |
460 Weatherby-- To directly answer your questions--- How much can they be opened?? I've put a shortened 500 Jeffery in a military '09 box twice. I had to cut down all four corners and reweld with the box nearly square top to bottom. There are Jeffery rifles on military actions in 404 and I've see several 350 Rigbys on standard actions . How much metal to leave?? More that FN and Mk-X leaves and as much as possible. | ||
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| Moderator |
My 350 Rigby is on a std action 98, and there appears to me to still be sufficient metal behind the bottom lug. I've found the case feeds fine with just work on the ramp, but I really do need to change the follower. | |||
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| <DBKING> |
I have asked this before, but this seems to be the right place to ask it again. I have a circa 1950's FN mauser in 30'06 and was thinking about opening it up to a larger caliber. What would be the largest caliber I could open this up to? Thanks in advance. | ||
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| <JBelk> |
DBKing--- It would be so much easier and a week faster to answer a question like "What would it take to fit this caliber in this action?" Nothing is impossible to a good gunsmith.....except maybe collecting the bill! How much are you willing to spend? | ||
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| One of Us |
Allen, I find myself in a position that I have to post this after your diatribe and tell you what I think. After biting my tongue for some time reading your irate threads, I no longer care what you think about me, gunsmithing or anything else for that matter. You start off saying that few gunsmiths understand Paul Mauser�s original concept of the magazine box design. Within the last two to three years you put a post on HuntAmerica saying that D�Arcy Echols had come up with the mathematical solution to the magazine box and went on to describe Paul Mausers design. I posted on that thread and informed you that it was not D�Arcy�s method but a 100 year old design by Paul Mauser. You said nothing at that time and now you announce to the world that most gunsmiths don�t even understand it. Nothing is further from the truth. You may find the backyard smith who are without that information but any gunsmith I know is well aware of it. You seem to feel it is your duty to denigrate any craftsman who is not your Gunsmith du jour. But none of that is even important. What is important is treating people with some dignity and respect. You use the excuse that these people are ill trained and undereducated for the task at hand. You know little of the education level of the gunsmith around the country but you make this broad brush demeaning remark to the industry. You choose your champion and then bad mouth everyone else and every other method of building a firearm. You are caustic to anyone who disagrees with you and feel you have some god given talent to ferret out what is wrong in the firearm world. You fabricate stories such as the leather covered pad tale and think no one should call you on it. When they do you get incensed that someone would doubt your word. I find little of value in anything you say anymore and most often it is to glorify your internet reputation. I am certain that D�Arcy shop is no where near his laundry or you would not have stated what you did. In truth a stockmaker does not need a lot of room and an area off the laundry would work very well. In my mind that does not diminish what a person can do or accomplish. His surroundings may be limitations to his production but not to his skill. Yet you persist in this attitude to make one believe that a person in that situation is somewhat inferior to anyone on your chosen list. I can not believe that your support of Echols does anything but harm to his business. If you think people hang on your every word and look at you as some kind of rifle guru you are mistaken. I am disappointed with myself in this relationship. I have always been a good judge of character and I thought you were a person worth knowing. I feel I was very mistaken. | |||
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| one of us |
Customstox- Don't waste your efforts. Allen Day is just a jerk-off wannabe! Your not gonna do anything other than start a fight with this moron! I doubt he has the education or intellect to even understand the math beind Mausers design much less do anything more than buy a gun from someone who does. Hey Allen !-Please post the calculations for a .416 Rigby magazine if you can calculate them. It should be no problem for a "expert"like you-Jim | |||
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| one of us |
Guys, I'm pretty new to this board, but I am amazed at all I have read in the posts about the mythical mauser magazine. It just isn't very hard. Can it be screwed up? You bet! Is the job botched a lot? You bet! But so is the simple act of mounting a scope base. I have seen some incredible metal work by good smiths. I have also seen hundreds of quality rifles built by local journeymen which work flawlessly. I do all my own work because its what I like to do. I don't do it for a living because that would take the fun away and, frankly, I make a lot more than I could as a smith. Can I modify a magazine so it works correctly. You bet! I just did a Brno in 416 Taylor. It functions like a bank vault, fast or slow. It was crap when new. Polished the inner mag box, opened the rails slightly with a Dremel. Polished the feed ramps, bolt raceways and inner ring edges. Cleaned up the back inside of the mag box. No work to the follower. Total time, abut 45 minutes. It's not magic, just common sense. Incidentally, the box is about a quarter inch longer than is needed for Taylor rounds crimped into the cannelure on all the bullets I have checked. The same appears to be true of three VZ 24's I checked in my shop (out past the lawnmower). | |||
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| one of us |
quote:..............................................................................................Hey there 470nitro - in another post you state that you were "only asking about Axel" - this post of yours is just like buttmunch Axel/Judy/ToddE/Etc. - why don't you go play with your gi joe action figures - you, a lawyer, yeah right !!!! Or as others have said ESAD / STFU  | |||
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| one of us |
Back to the topic, what would it take or is it even a good idea to open up a mauser to feed and shoot 375 H&H? Also what would it take to rechamber from 7X57 to 7X57 inproved and make it feed right. | |||
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| <G.Malmborg> |
Howard, There are probably thousands of Mausers chambered for the 375 H&H including the Ackley version. Most probably feed well and are safe. The design of the right hand lug mortise in the receiver (the one where the feed ramp is located) is such, that any lengthening of the magazine or action, to feed and house long cartridges, be done, out of a concern for safety, by removing material from the rear of the magazine well rather than the area behind the feed ramp. To rechamber to the 7X57 Improved, the barrel must first be set back, chambered and headspaced so the bolt will just close with a slight amount of contact on standard ammo. The 7X57 Improved is a blown out case with little body taper sporting a steep 40 degree shoulder. The steep shoulder angle may necessitate altering the feed angle or cartridge release angle, so that the case will align with the ramp as the cartridge is advanced from under the feed rails. There is no way to describe what is needed to make the cartridge feed correctly without having the actual action and round in hand. Successful feed modifications require experience, or some knowlege, in how rounds feed in a particular action. If you wish to learn how to do this, the best way of course, would be to learn under the watchful eye and guidance of an experienced gunsmith. This probably won't happen, so, the second best way to learn would be to carefully study your own weapons feeding system. To do this, "REMOVE THE FIRING PIN" and slowly feed live, or preferably, "dummy ammo" through your action and study the relationship between the cartridge, the feed rails, feed ramp, bolt face and extractor. If you are mechanical in nature and you understand the relationship of all the various pieces of the feeding system and how they interact with each other, then you stand a fair chance at success. Or, you could hire it done. If you decide to try this yourself, then you must always keep "SAFETY" in mind. Before you apply any tool to the work, think ahead and make damn certain that what you are about to do, does not jepardize safety... Good luck, Malm | ||
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| One of Us |
quote:I agree that it is wrong to judge a gunsmith's work product by whether he has spent significant amounts to present a fancy image. What matters is the work product. If someone wants a flashy presentation, they can go down to the local BMW dealer. If anyone has looked at Browning's original tools in the Browning museum, he can see that there was nothing fancy or flashy there. Just lots and lots of brains and skill. | |||
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