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http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=2344 Just thought you guys that love these little rifles would want to check it out. I know nothing about them.   | ||
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Isnt that a brno 47? I need some of those  | |||
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How does one tell the model number of a commercial Brno sporter? Regards, Brian  Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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It looks like a Brno 21H carbine model... | |||
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The reason I asked about model number identification is that I have an opportunity to buy a mint late 50's early 60's Brno 7x57 sporter. The seller called it a lightwieght but it has a full length manlicher stock. I'd like to understand the model number identification so that I can determine and compare the value to the asking price. Any thoughts, ideas? Anyone have one of these? Regards, Brian Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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That one is nicer than the 21h that I got on a auction a couple of years ago. I paid $630 and got the original scope mount also. Mine also has a pad and single trigger like that one. The one in the pic does has the original bolt which is going to be very high and not clear a scope very well. Too bad these guns were not developed more as they have some very nice features.  Join the NRA | |||
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Brianbo, I would have to know more about it. As to this series the 22f is the full stock and 21h is the half stock and they were made in carbine and rifle barrel lengths. Here is a 22f thats almost original except the bolt was cut and welded to lower it at the root.  Join the NRA | |||
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From an earlier post: Approximately 40,000 Brno 21/22s were manufactured by Zbrojovka Brno from 1946-1954. The first 20,000 were made with round top receivers, from 1946-1948. The subsequent 20,000 were made with integral "square bridge" receivers for scope mounting, from 1949-1954. Most of the round top versions do not have bolt guide ribs, as do the later versions. Most came with double set triggers but a few (like the one posted at the top) came with factory single triggers. Two barrel lengths (21.5" & 23.5"), Mannlicher full stock (the model 22F) & half stocks (model 21H). All are dated on the barrel & receiver. Most popular metric calibers. Nifty rifles. Prices usually range between $800-$1500, depending on condition, originality, configuration & caliber. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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Savage99 & fla3006, thank you very much for your pictures and information. It is greatly appreciated. According to the picture above, the one I'm looking at is a 22F, 7x57 and has a 21.5" barrel. I don't recall if it's a square bridge or round bridge though... if round, then it's older than I thought. Mint condition though. Regards, Brian Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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PM Kurt C who posts here... He is extremeley knowledgeable Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Nice rifle, appeals to me more(more class) than a pre64, for the same sort of money. | |||
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The Brno 21's and 22's don't have more class. In fact they are not on the same page class wise with a pre 64 M70. Join the NRA | |||
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Savage, Ive never handled a 21 or 22, but wonder why you say they arent even on the same page as a m70. | |||
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Savage bases his opinion about every rifle that was ever made by the example he owns. I've seen him do it with a Wincherter model-88 too. His Winchester didn't operate smoothly therefor they must all be this way. He'll get on these boards and state it as fact. Both of his BRNO's are modified and who knows what all was done to them, so everybody else's must be junk too. You just can't buy a 40+ year old rifle and evaluate the entire line by the example you own, but he thinks you can. The build quality of these rifles are amazing. Winchester made a good rifle back in the day, but never the same consistant quality as these BRNO's. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I have to say, the two examples I saw at Cabelas (Buda), though used and abused and certainly overpriced, were not on the same page as the M70 CRF. Neigh, they were at least a page or two ahead. They suited me fine though I can see where some might object to the stock style. However, where it counts, as in how the action functions and in fit & finish discounting of course, the the affects of bubba, they were a page or two ahead of both the M700 and M70.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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I have a 21H in 7x57 (just like the one you posted, but with double triggers) and have used it extesinsively. I love the litte rifle. I would ask that you please don't change the bolt handle. YOu can buy Warne rings that are high enough to clear the bolt handle. It works just fine, and is how the rifle was intended to be used. Teutonic rifles are meant to be shot with your head and neck more erect that American rifles. For some reason, American styles of shooting are greatly different and gun writers have braiwashed peoeple into thinking that unless a scope is touching the barrel then it is waaaaaay to high to be used in the field. This is total non-sense, but is often quoted as gospel. Look at the latest scopes Leupold is making with the cut out in the objective!!! If you want a lower scope, then I would ask that you have another bolt fit the the rifle. It will not cost you that much more and you may actually come put ahead when you sell the original BRNO bolt. Most have been butchered and there are not many factory ones for sale these days. The only thing i don't like about the rifle is the safety. I have no problem with the location and operation, I just like a safety that locks the bolt. When going through thick stuff, it comes open all the time. If you change bolts, then you can add a 3 position safety at the same time you are having and AMerican style bolt handle added. | |||
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and trust me, the 21H is miles ahead af the typical pre-64 M70. The old M70's are often pretty rough and way out of square. I have one in the shop I am restoring for a guy and this one has tooling marks deeper and more prevelent than all of the 21H's I have seen added together. Not that the M70 is a bad rifle, I am just saying the BRNO's I have handled have been better finished. I have only seen on 21H action in a lathe to be measured for runout and squareness, and it was excellent. A lot of pre-64's M70's are way out and crooked. THe newer M70's are (were) manufactured to tighter tolerances. Start measurieng a bunch of old ones and a bunch of new ones and you will see what I mean. And finish is often better now too. Again, this is a case where the gun writers brainwashed people into believeing the pre-64 M70 was the ultimate rifle and was perfect. but FWIW, I like both actions. Just trying to put it into perspective form some one who has seen and measuered both | |||
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Do those 21s and 20s have a third locking lug and extractor like a mauser or are they more like a newer CZ 550? | |||
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GSP7 They are like the mauser in all aspects. Cheers /JOHAN | ||
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All I can say is the one that I'm buying just feels and cycles wonderfully. The metal finish is nicer than any pre or post 64 Mod 70 I've seen and I own several now and have owned many over the years. Marc, I appreciate your comment and recommendation about the bolt. I dislike high scope rings but wouldn't butcher the original bolt. I like the Model 70 actions, old & new but I prefer a well tuned mauser action. Regards, Brian Meet "Beauty" - 66 cal., 417 grn patched roundball over 170 grns FFg = ~1950 fps of pure fun! "Scotch Whisky is made from barley and the morning dew on angel's nipples." - Warren Ellis NRA Life Member | |||
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Where can you get another bolt (not an origianl but a replacement to mount scope lower) for a 21H and the estimated cost? Thanks for your help! | |||
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Terry, How many Brno 21-22's have you owned and how many pre 64 M70's? I have two of the Brnos and have owned eight pre 64 M70's. Your statement of how I evaluated the M88 Win is not correct. In the first place the one I have is smooth! It does have a design problem however in that it cocks itself way and the far end of the out stroke where there is the least leverage and that can also intefer with the ejection. All in all the M88 Win is a nice gun but I prefer the 99 Savage to it. As to the modifications of my guns they are so misiscule and not to make any differance in an evalutation. Be specific. Join the NRA | |||
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Any standard length 98 bolt will fit, although the lugs may have to be fitted to ensure proper headspace. It is difficult to fit a low handle on a Brno without cutting into the wood, which would be as offensive as modifying the original handle. You can take a standard VZ-24 bent bolt and dish out the top of the handle. Brno does it for their current large ring commercial 98's. | |||
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GSP7, The Brno 21-22's have been hailed as the best sporter ever by some and that includes Ray Atkinson. I bought a couple of them, as you can see, to find out what they were talking about. I have extensive shooting and tuning experiance with other M70's, 99's and some Mausers. The Brno gun was made on Communist Yugoslavia and is so marked "NARODNI PODNIK" on the receiver which means something like national peoples indication a state owned mfg. Due the blockade of Berlin by the Communists the rifle did not have much of a chance in that only free people can own firearms so it died out. The gun was made just after the second world war and left off many features. 1. Many of these guns have no guide on the bolt like other Mausers do. They must have forgot it. 2. The safety is just about impossible to use with a scope. 3. The safety does not lock the bolt shut and here is no detent or way of holding it closed. This is a serious defect in design. 4. The rifle has double set triggers which are of course no longer common or favored. 5. The floor plate is almost impossible to open. 6. The height of the left bolt lug and the subsequent raceway is too large in diameter for the 7mm and 8mm Mauser case and they get stuck in there. 7. The stocks were made of some cheap soft wood and the checkering falls off. These stocks are junk. 8. The comb is way too low for a scope. 9. The root of the bolt handle sticks way up too far from the bolt body and therefore a low scope is impossible. The bolt handle should cut thru the stock like very other sporter. 10. The barrel has some cheap sleeve over it to hold the express sight and therefore the barrel diameter over the chamber is very small. 11. The express sight, like some others, gets in the way of the ocular of a normal scope. 12. The 22f carbine that I have in 8-57 weighs way too much for only a 20.5" tube. For example a pre 64 M70 featherweight weighs a half pound less and it has a longer barrel! 13. The finish on the rifles is not all that special at all. 14. They have spoon bolt handles which are hard to work fast. 15. The LOP is about 15 1/2" to the front trigger which is ridiculous. On the positive side they are cute and narrow. I like narrow rifles but the other issues keep them off the page of acceptable sporters. Join the NRA | |||
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Brno is in Czechoslovakia, not Yugoslavia. Production of the 21/22 series rifles began in 1942, possibly earlier. The first Communist government in Czechoslovakia was elected 6 years later in 1948. | |||
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If your M88 was right it wouldn't be hard to cock at all! Your criticism of the safety goes back to exactly what I said in my 1st post about you judging the entire line by two modified examples that you own. If the bolt handle on yours wasn't modified and you hadn't mounted the scope so low (you couldn't have done it if it was original)you wouldn't have any problem using the safety as there would be plenty of room. The lack of a bolt guide bothers no one but you. I've never noticed it being a problem. The double set triggers and low comb stock were favored when the gun was built I'm sorry they weren't thinking of you when they built yours. The floorplate on mine comes off with the push of a button. Again you seem to think every one of them has trouble because yours does. "The stocks were made of cheap soft wood and the checkering fall off"  ?  I guess the m70 pre64 wood was superior? I think not. I could go on down the list but I don't see the need to. Besides, Kurt already set you straight on the history. I hope that's specific enough for you. Savage, I don't dislike you, but I think you're way off base with some of this stuff you write. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Not way off base at all. It was a communist country with the same result. Nobody has rebutted any points either. I have more points if need be but that sums up the guns. If they had seen the light of freedom we would all be better off. Join the NRA | |||
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I rebutted six of your points and could have gone down the line, but you obviously refuse to read or take in any of them. When the guns were produced it was a free country so you are wrong about that too. People I consider to have a lot more knowledge than you about guns seem to like them just fine. As long as that point is made for the benefit of people that don't know how you evaluate things when this subject comes up. Well, I'm fine with it. babble on. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Czechoslovakia was socialist after WW11 and there was little market for sporting rifles behind the iron curtain. Czechoslovakia is a small country in Eastern Europe less than the size of NY state with the climate of Southern Canada. After the Berlin blockade and Communist takeover of all goverment and commerce in Czechoslovakia starting on February 1948 all trade was within the Soviet block for decades to come. History You wrote "The lack of a bolt guide bothers no one but you. I've never noticed it being a problem." Then why did they add it later? It's as if you interviewed everyone on earth and they like the Brno's better when they forgot the bolt guide. Come on. You wrote "The double set triggers and low comb stock were favored when the gun was built I'm sorry they weren't thinking of you when they built yours." Of course they were favored by those who did not have a clue of what made a best sporter. Double set triggers, very low combs and a LOP of over 15" to the front trigger are old hat. The rifle was not mainstream. You wrote "The stocks were made of cheap soft wood and the checkering fall off" Confused? bull I guess the m70 pre64 wood was superior? I think not." Yes I know it is. I own both kinds of guns and I still have not heard from you on what you have. Join the NRA | |||
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I would want a bolt guide rib on a mauser action.  | |||
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The bolt guide rib comes in handy on slop-fit military 98's. The small ring Brno's had the guide rib until 1945, lacked the rib 1946-48, then had the rib again 1949-54. I have not noticed a difference on the 21/22, as they are all hand fitted and smooth as silk. Oddly enough, the nicest figure in the stocks can be found 1946-48, when the guide rib was left off. The checkering pattern was also more elaborate, as well as the shape of the comb. The communist era (49-54), saw military grade stock figure, but brought back the guide rib and introduced the poplular square bridges for scope use. | |||
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Kurt , whats the scope on the zg 47? Was it made the same time the 21,22 or is it a later model? I know it has that distinctive right side safety and sq, bridge reciever | |||
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Hopefully Alf will stop by and give you the complete history. The ZG-47 was a large ring commercial action with mauser features. It's double square bridge scope bases infuenced all post 1948 model 21/22's. | |||
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