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| One of Us |
Not sure this is the proper forum but thought I would give it a shot. While working on research I sometime find out more than I think readers want or need to know about the people I write about. I learned about the last minutes of Tom Shelhamer in a phone conversation. I have a two page single spaced letter from Alvin Lindens brother-law telling about the last hours of Linden’s life and how he found him on the shop floor. One gunmaker had a string of wives and a many children. More than one had a ongoing battle with the bottle. For the most part I leave this kind of information out but after a few folks heard about the Linden info they all wanted copies. If a gunmaker dies early in life I try to include the reason. Where does historical information stop and bad taste begin? It’s become obvious to me that some people what to know more than I have been comfortable in providing. I made a copy of an A.O. Niedner taped interview available to the ASSRA, he had some strong feeling about another famous gunsmith a held back nothing, If it ever is transcribed I would be interest to see if it gets edited. My outlook has been don’t write anything about someone I would not want written about myself. What say you? | ||
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the truth is never in bad taste; consider the notion of never doing anything you wouldn't want to tell your grandmother or wife or the police. I have used that basic guideline for nigh on to sixty years and it has worked well to date. Rich | |||
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The Golden Rule is a pretty good yardstick to go by. "There always seems to be a big market for making the clear, complex." | |||
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I think the problem lays in the fact that it is still one person's opinion or observation about another who happens to no longer be around to rebut the opinion or give it context. I understand why that kind of detail sells in so many celebrity cases but in the world of gunmakers, I think it matters less than the sum of a man's work. It might be different when talking about public figures that had an influence on public discourse or policy. A contradiction in their public efforts and private lives is fair game. But a man that never sold himself as anything but a gunmaker ought to be judged on his gunmaking contributions alone. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I agree. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Michael, you probably already know that I try to live my life by The Golden Rule. At the same time, however, the truth is hardly ever A Bad Thing, really. There are things I've done that would be awkward or embarassing if told while I was still alive and if presented in an adversarial manner, but I hardly think that you, Michael, would exhibit such crudity. IMO it would be interesting for the rest of us to be told a little more about the folks who have brought us all so much artistic accomplishment to admire, while at the same time making no attempt either to sensationalize or to minimize their behavior. A perfect example in my mind is Harry Pope, I'd absolutely love to hear more about his rudeness and estrangement from some of his family. Another famous curmudgeon and supposed heavy toper was James V. Howe who apparently couldn't get along with anyone for very long but who IMO produced some of the best gunsmithing and gunsmithing writing ever done before WW2. Further insights into these gunsmiths' characters and histories via authors' accounts of their behaviors is IMO quite appropriate if given no more space than any other non-firearms-related facts told about their lives. JMOFWIW, and I'm really looking forward to your next compilation! Best, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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If I wanted to read bad things about other folks' personal lives, I'd buy National Inquirer. I don't. Even less do I want to read old hearsay gossip from some person who may have had their own axe to grind in badmouthing a gunmaker. I have no objection to reading if a current gunsmith is being dishonest with his customers or suppliers, but other than that, I want to know about his work, his thoughts on what makes for good shooting, how his gun-making ideas evolved and changed over the years, that sort of stuff.... No good end was ever furthered by ANY evil act, regardless of motive. To work is to pray. | |||
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I'll have to go with Tiggertate and Alberta Canuck. Butch | |||
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If someone wants to post details of someone's life, write a biography... discussing personal details here is a no-no. In other words, its none of our business. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I'm not shy when it comes to telling the truth. I'm sure it's irritated many in the past. I still can't understand why. Having been one of the cast members at a certain shop in Western SDak that ran lake a bad soap opera, I've been chastised for providing some truth to discussions when the story was about someone who couldn't defend themselves because they were dead. "Have you no respect for the dead?" were the gist of many of the responses. My feelings were that it was more important to tell the truth than let the masses keep believing the lies. Many didn't want their precious bubbles popped and weren't swayed by any facts. Most that could be easily corroborated. I slept better after offering a grain of truth and in a way relieved by bringing some accuracy to the discussion. The crime isn't in providing the truth. It's in suppressing the truth and letting others keep believing the lie. As an historian, you kind of have an obligation to provide the historical records you've unearthed. Unless you want to be considered on par with the evening news where they provide only the part of the truth that pushes opinion in the direction they want. Regardless of how out of context their journalism is. The real trick is providing the history you've found and trying your best to provide the proper context to the material. Saying "Joe Blow was a drunk." is a little different than saying, "Many friends of Joe expressed concern about his battle with alcohol. On one occasion Joe's friend said this.............." Adding a little tact blunts some of the strong feelings that will come when someone gets their bubble popped. I'm still working on learning some tact. | |||
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I think Jeffeosso has caught the essence of respect and good taste. All men struggle with their own demons, to publically detail them after death in a second or third hand manner is to show a blatant disregard for the good that the man may have lived for. Let the dead (those that cannot answer gossip) rest with the best possible memory from those fo us left to remember them. Classy writing is highly valuable. Aspire higher than to wallow in the pitiful details of a dead man's life. josh | |||
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I could look at a 500 page book full of custom rifles and never bore of it. I like to know the name of the riflemaker and maybe a paragraph or two, but its the body of work that smith put forth / would be all I need. _____________________ Steve Traxson | |||
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I think this is very good insight and a very worthy view. None of us know the inner battles another man may have fought and lost. So who of us is the braver, better man....the one who faced no particular inner demons and therefore had no need to fight those battles? Or the one who put out great and prolonged effort to improve himself and the lives of those around him, but failed none-the-less? It is not about truth, but about ignorance. The plain truth is, we are ignorant of the internal battles others have to fight, often daily. So why, pray tell, display our ignorance where such a demonstration is not essential or required? To work is to pray. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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I firmly believe it is showing disrespect to the dead to let the truth die with them. What if overwhelming evidence proves that the late Jacko was really just a kind loving soul and he never touched a kid. Wouldn't it be the right thing to do to out the evidence? Forgive me if I'm not sure why it's not appropriate to shed ANY negative light on the deceased. Only positive. Blame my education but to me it feels dishonest and incomplete. While the ramblings of certain past smiths have been preserved by recording or pen, isn't it showing them respect by letting their words be known? Of course presented in the proper context. How many here want their descendants to read in a history book 100 years from now that our current POTUS actually walked on water? Overwhelming evidence (because of the lack of anything negative written about the dead) clearly shows that it was really the second coming. Not just another opportunistic politician. However, I do believe that here on a public forum may not be the proper place. In book form the customer would have the choice weather or not to indulge. Didn't Hemmingway die in a hunting accident? | |||
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James, re-read my post .. i didn't say positive or negative. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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People are people.........hell, look at some of our Presidents. I don't see where one's chosen profession has much to do with it. | |||
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If we actually KNEW the inner truth of the man, rather than just what we think we saw, you might have an argument. I would still question how appropriate it is to a book about his work. What Mr. Petrov asked us was whether we want that sort of material in a book about various gunmakers. I, for one, do not. It is not germane to me whether they had a mistress, got falling down drunk at a high school reunion, or once pooped in their own bed. All might be true, but need not be recorded. If they want that sort of thing passed on to later generations of his family, then his family needs to put forward a combo personal biography/family album. Who else has a legitimate need to know? My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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If you ask yourself whether to print it or not, then DON'T. If you don't ask yourself questions like that, then please switch and start writing for "Star" or the "National Inquirer". This not to be construed to mean don't tell the truth, do tell about ones warts and such, but a true writer knows when to ask themselves and the answer is . . .IF I ASK MYSELF,THEN DON'T. Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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When one speaks the truth, its most often a case of pearl before swine. Graveyards are full of headstones which tell of the wonderful people, wonder where all the bad folk have been buried.... | |||
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I think that's a pretty good comment, 'If you have to ask yourself whether to print it or not then don't ' is a pretty good general rule. I,for one, am not particularly interested in a gunsmiths personality or personal quirks. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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Maybe I just feel cheated when I'm provided with only part of the story. I feel reading about someone's troubles on the road through life gives me greater appreciation for all the good things that has come from it. Brings them down to earth and less idolic. Human, just like you and me. Makes me think we all have faults we can overcome and contribute in our own way. Think about it. Just because Hemmingway shot himself doesn't make his contribution to the world any less important. Leaving out the cowardly (IMHO) act of ending it just seems pointless. Doesn't make me like his work any less. Not knowing a few of the details just paints an incomplete picture. It's paint by numbers with a few #s left unpainted. It takes all shades to paint a good picture. | |||
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IMO a deliberate suppressioon of the truth is the same as a lie. I, for one, will not lie about anyone just because they're dead. IMO the truth is NEVER a bad thing as long as it's presented in a non-biased and informed manner. Those who would always 'show respect' for the dead by never criticizing them are mistaken IMO. The truth is still the truth and should survive. And I speak as one of those old fogie gunsmiths who don't suffer fools gladly and who has had problems with women, money and whiskey over the years. Certainly not in the same artistic & professional class as the folks Michael is researching, but similar dirty linen. I personally don't care if or what anyone writes about me as long as they tell the truth. And that's while I'm ALIVE! I gotta ask myself why should I care what anyone says after I'm dead? I certainly am no saint, not even a particularly good person, so why try to put up a false front so to speak? If the reader knows that the author has deliberately not told the whole story then the truth & authenticity of the entire article is thrown into question. Make the biographical facts known and let the reader decide. What would you think of any research on, for instance, Adolph Hitler's painting, that didn't also mention his other significant life experiences? How about W.C.Fields' genius comedies without his drinking and compulsive hoarding? Howard Hughes' aviation triumphs with no mention of his personal devils? It's not gossip, it's history. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Pure dirt without a purpose doesn't really interest me. What I do find interesting is common duality of genius and madness. Some of the greatest artists (including gifted gunmakers) battled real demons. One great but now deceased gifted gunmaker was afflicted with a severe case of attention deficit hyper-activity disorder. He really was a genius and I often wonder what he would have accomplished in life had he been born a little later when a daily dose of medicine could have helped him to channel his genius. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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Personally, I only drink when I am alone or when I am with somebody Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I think there's a line between someone who's chosen a very public profile like Hemingway, Lindbergh or Michael Jackson and some regular joe that ended up making guns well enough to be remembered for his work. Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor put themselves on the celebrity side of that line. Others didn't. Your posts about your previous employer were in a different context altogether. They were insights into an ongoing concern selling to the public and you had information a buyer might want to know. Others were discussing the ethics of that investor which is also fair game, considering he canvasses the public for capital. Mike, I only drink in public and then way too much. Always good to be underestimated. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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After reading all of the excellent posts on this thread, I guess the best I can offer is, Unto Thine Own Self, Be True. I personally think you do a great job of being true to you. | |||
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I think it all depends on what kinds of a thinker you are. Intellectuals always want all the information they can get their hands on. They will be the judge of what is important or not. The more information you have the better. The romantics prefer to see the world with rose colored glasses. They are only concerned with the good. Personally I have a thirst to learn everything possible about a person, thing, or situation. To me, this information is the only way I can understand fully. A direct example might be varying quality levels of a gunmaker’s work, if he had a big problem with the bottle this might explain it. If he had a gambling problem and rushed out some work to pay debts that also adds a layer to understanding the man. If he was divorced many times because he was so meticulous about his work that he spent 12 hours a day finishing projects that adds a layer. I think we prefer to think about greatness without thinking about the sacrifices made to accomplish it. This is a mistake and a road map for disappointment IMO. | |||
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Thanks for all the feedback, I found it all interesting. Many things to consider after reading all the post. The Linden letter is very interesting but not sure how much if any I should publish. I do not believe that anyone should re-write history so maybe the place for all this is in my files where folks in the future who have an interest can find that information. I’m at an age where I understand that others will be looking at my research files someday and I think about how it will be used. They way things are now I have about 2-3000 words to get out the information I feel is important about any given maker and his work. On some makers such as Niedner I have a full filing cabinet drawer of information. Years ago I was as guilty as anyone of hero-worship regarding some of the better know custom makers and as I got older and learned more than most about them I found they were just human with all the good and bad that go along with it. I have on tape, where one maker (not Niedner) is saying another maker murdered someone so you can see how far out some of this stuff can get. About Howe, I have been chasing James V. Howe all over the country, the guy just could not stay in one place very long. I have found no evidence of him not getting along, more of him having to get along to someplace new. The grass is always greener Howe. | |||
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dont censor the truth. ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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Well, if you folks want to read that kind of thing (the bad sides of people), have at it. I don't want to. I don't know what good will come of derogatory info being spewn about, but it is a way to sell books these days. It is not a question of censoring history, or painting people as something they weren't. Nor is it a question of trying to make heros of them by not telling all the dirt one can dig up. We all know that ALL human beings have imperfections and/or dark sides...or at least we all should by now. I don't want a rag list of those imperfections on everyone I read about. I buy books like the ones Michael writes to find out about a man's work, not his weaknesses. I don't want to poke about in his dirty laundry. I have my own laundry to try to keep in order. Finding I am (maybe) holier than him, or am not, won't teach me a darn thing about his gun work. Enjoy yourselves with whatever rows your scow. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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If all we wanted to read about was the work, then it wouldn't matter WHO did it and all the reader would need is the pictures. IMO the entire idea of the biographical info is to flesh out the man behind the work. But as always, YMMV. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Joe, I don't think a picture book would provide what I want to know at all. I want to know "why" he made his rifles to the dimensions and in the styles he chose. What calibers he prefered, if any, to work with, which barrel makes he preferred and why, which action types and makers he felt were best or worst and why, if he changed his views over the years, the kinds of uses he preferred to make rifles for, and all the history of his work, including production and the dates of that production. Good books can provide that kind of info, while photo books generally provide none of it. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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The basic problem is that much of the negative perspectives on a dead man's inner demons come from others. The full truth of the situation is NOT known. If the man cannot answer specific questions about his life, especially questions about things that might be printed for the public, the full truth is hidden. We are left with speculation or gossip from some man with all his attendant flaws about another man's inner character. Geoff, with all due respect your post about intellectuals and romantics was one of the more arrogant (and incorrect) I have seen in recent memory. You do realize you are trying to catagorize huge numbers of people that you know nothing about. My perspective on the question comes from a basic respect and value for the lives of other men. That is neither intellectual nor romantic, just respectful. josh | |||
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When it gets down to two, who can tell who is crazier than who? | |||
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Very well said! Knowing the story of the men behind the work adds a layer of understanding that increases my appreciation for the product and the man. The fact that Ruark, Hemingway and Ruth could produce such great work while saddled with alcoholism makes their greatness even more impressive. Judging another man on his weaknesses says as much about your character as his. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I kinda feel like this. When I sell crap on Ebay I just flat refuse to give negative "feedback" for any reason. Reason? Life is too damn short for this NEGATIVE kind of stuff. If a guy screws around I just block him!! Let him figure it out when he bids on something of mine again and finds himself blocked it`s just Gods way of paying him back for being an asshole! Everyone here has someone out there that will be more than happy to slam-dunk them for whatever reason--real or conceived. I won`t do that. Just like triggertate and the rest? Let them have a bit of dignity! Aloha, Mark When the fear of death is no longer a concern----the Rules of War change!! | |||
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"'My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.' "Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong." - 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 | |||
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I have a degree in English Lit. It wasn't entirely a waste of time. For a while, the assumption was that an artist offers up his art for criticism, ergo, criticizing his art is appropriate. An artist's personal life was, well, personal. As we all know, that has changed. I don't believe in Original Sin, but I do believe that all humans are weak. Falliable. And I also firmly believe that if you spend a lot of time looking under rocks, you'll find dirt. I've seen enough dirt. And isn't the temptation to think, "Well, he was a drunk just like me..."? Because no, he wasn't a drunk like you. He created beautiful rifles. And you didn't. In my books on antique and classic speedboats, I never mentioned money. Yep. These boats cost a pile of discretionary cash. And as usual, the folks that built them were paid too little, and those that bought them had too much. flaco N.B. And who says suicide is weak? I am no longer a fan of Hemingway--I don't call shooting sharks with machine guns sport--but I am absolutely certain you're not qualified to judge. And isn't this the heart of the matter? | |||
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Funny, huh? I've judged Hemingway on his personal life, and not his creations. Perhaps I've illustrated my own point? To be honest, I don't care. About shooting sharks. It's just that Fitzgerald's work has stood the test of time so much better. flaco N.B. Did you hear about the time they both took their shirts off in Perkins' office to compare chest hair? A couple of morons, huh? | |||
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If you don't like the personal parts then don't read them. I don't obsess that anyone committed suicide because I don't know the reason and it could have been a good one for all I know. But I DO want to know about any unusual event or characteristic or action that may have influenced the subject's life and works, things that may help to shed more light on their artistry. BTW your posts would be more enjoyable to read if you didn't double-space. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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