Okay, I dreaded removing the barrel and then returning it back to match the witness mark on the receiver.

I'd done this once before, after I blued the barrel--I had sweated on a barrel band stud and front sight--and it took me forever.

On this project, the job was... to remove about .003 from the muzzle diameter to fit the barrel band.

The options were (a) fit the barrel through the headstock of the lathe with the receiver attached, which didn't really expose an adequate length of the muzzle; or (b) remove the receiver and put the barrel in this dandy whizz-bang wood lathe that my boss has set up--with a hand held belt sander--to polish barrels.

Okay, I finally capitulated, and followed the boss's advice.

Off with the receiver, onto the wood lathe, about five minutes of polishing with the belt sander, and she's done.

"We have the technology...," the boss says.

Now... how to torque the barrel back on the receiver?

Into the barrel vise, on with the action wrench, and... it took about three minutes to perfectly match the witness mark.

I don't know how everyone else does this--I expect caustic blue guys blue the barrel and receiver together, but slow rust blue is best with them apart--so here's the boss's technique:

When we're close to having it on, I'm at the action wrench handle with a rather large persuader, and he's staring down a bore sight that's snugged right up to the receiver ring.

You know, that real tight space between the receiver and the barrel vise?

"Once more," the boss says, and I bop the action wrench handle.

"One more and we've got it."

I bop it again.

We did two today, both with way better than RCH tolerances.

I love working for a real gunsmith.

flaco

It takes two of you to align a witness mark?

Just quicker with two, malm.

How do you do it?

Mainly, I think the idea of using a bore scope is a flash of genius, and I wanted to share it.

flaco

Not to mention having a wood lathe dedicated to barrel polishing.

Here's the setup, as I understand it:

There's a three jaw chuck--aluminum jaws--in the head of the wood lathe, and a live center in the tail.

The hand-held belt sander and the lathe are both controlled by one foot switch. Ergo, both hands free to operate the sander.

As I see it, this accomplishes a couple of important things, in addition to efficiency and convenience: (a) no abrasive particles on the metal lathe!!!; and (b) no need to mess with the setup of the metal lathe.

flaco

Addendum: Ooops! Almost forgot the aluminum bushings that go between the muzzle and the live center.

Wouldn't want to hurt that muzzle crown, huh?

LOL.

I'm curious why the belt sander? Since the barrel is spinning in the lathe, why not just use Sandpaper with an appropriate backing block.

Weagle

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:

On this project, the job was... to remove about .003 from the muzzle diameter to fit the barrel band.

.....
I love working for a real gunsmith.

flaco

AH, well... yeah...

two other fixes come to mind.

put the barrel band in the 3jaw, and get some sandpaper....

or use a boring bar...

But, to be REALLY honest with you, you should have been able to get the band hot and have it SLIP .003, or drive on .005....


all I am saying is that if you feel cutting the profile of the barrel is a good thing, you simple MUST think cutting the inside of the band (that's going to get soldered) is the greatest thing since al gore invented the internet.

jeffe

quote:

On this project, the job was... to remove about .003 from the muzzle diameter to fit the barrel band

As Jeffe said open the barrel band ID. It will make life much easier.

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
Just quicker with two, malm.

How do you do it?

Mainly, I think the idea of using a bore scope is a flash of genius, and I wanted to share it.

flaco

If I have to index a barrel because of sights, lugs, extractor cuts, flutes etc., I leave enough room between the receiver and barrel vise to where I can watch what is happening. It doesn't take much. And please put that "persuader" away. You really don't need to apply "that much torque" when assembling a barrel and receiver. Unscrewing them is sometimes a different matter.

RE: cheater pipe - on those @#&%$^$##^$* CZ's you do need one if you don't modify them. I take a little off the shoulder of the barrel and am always surprised at how much metal has to be removed to make screw together with normal force. The first one I had apart and in 100% factory condition, I could not get it lined back up with a 4' cheater pipe. One thing I can say about the CZ's-they made me redsign how I had my barrel vise set up and it is much better now, so I guess I do owe the sorry bastards a word of thanks for that.

It is totally rediculous how they put those things together. This may even be worse then their wonderful trigger design. I know I have written both of these rants before, but I could go off on a tangent about the barrel fit and trigger design every day. And twice on Sundays.

I have re-read the post and still don't see what the bore scope does. I use the calibrated eye ball. On cone breach custom barrels I look through the back of the action and get the extractor slot lined up juuuuuust right with the right bolt race way. All of the factory barrels I have seen had the extractor cut made a good bit larger than the action way, so it can't be used for "RCH" precision. But for non-nuclear plant gun work, it works pretty darn good. If it is a skosh before or skosh after the original position, it really does not affect a slick barreled rifle. Assuming you did a nice, tight chamber, it would take the barrel being off a pretty good bit to make the "no-go" drop in.

Easy, boys!

Remember I'm an English major who didn't really know what a milling machine was three years ago. This is all a voyage of discovery for me, and if I'm enthusiastic about techniques that differ from your own, remember there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[Please spare me the cat skinning lectures, okay!!!]

My love of rifles brought me into this, and it all seems great.

[As an aside, one of the worst features of this forum is the destructive internecine battles. I guess we all know that they offend a lot of folks, and drive some that may really have something to contribute away.]

Malm, you're a working smith who's contributed much here, so I always read your posts with attention. I used a Brownell's punch that marks the barrel and the vertical side of secondary torque shoulder all at one whallop, and I can't imagine being able to see the receiver witness mark while the whole setup is in the barrel vise.

Admittedly, Jim Wisner, who cut the barrel band sights for me, advised trimming the inside of the band. Still, the metal lathe was set up for something else at the time, and the barrel benefitted from being polished anyway.

One advantage of the bore sight technique is that the bore sight has a magnifier; this meant we could match the two pieces with utmost accuracy. (Not to mention my old eyes ain't that good, anyway!)

As to heating the barrel band, we considered that. And spoke about it. Clearly, the spring for the sight hood retainer would have to be removed, but that will have to be removed for soldering anyway. But I just can't see juggling a hot barrel band and trying to find TDC with any accuracy.

While you may be correct in your advice in this case, jeffe, and I'm reluctant to say it, but please add me to the list of those who approach all your posts with the utmost skepticism. It didn't help when you PM'd me to say that I shouldn't refer to the Dakota as a "side swing safety". Brownell's refers to it as a "side swing safety", both in their catalog and on the net. What's up with that?

Malm, I'm interested in your torque advice. Actually, my boss--who is not a Mauser guy--has a couple of fittings to adapt torque wrenches to receivers, so all the barrels he mounts are torqued on accurately. I originally torqued this one on myself, using about a 30* windup and not to much pressure on the action wrench.

It is supposed to be a "crush fit", isn't it?

I know Kuhnhausen advises 75 ft/lbs for Mausers.

In the event, I just tapped the action wrench handle enough to get the receiver in the absolutely correct place.

Anyway, I hope to continue to make posts that I think will be of value to those still learning, as I am. And hope that the neophytes will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Dialogue, and knowledge of a variety of techniques can be useful.

flaco

N.B. And think of the fun you'll have when I post about sweating on the barrel band at TDC. More grist for the AR "Gunsmithing" mill.

I'll bet you can hardly wait!!!

LOL.

flaco,

I was taught that the final seating torque is that which is applied when you give the handle a downward chop with the fleshy side of your closed fist to create the “crush fitâ€. Not exactly a real high tech solution but it seems to work just fine.

I’m glad you posted though, I was thinking that I might be the only one that got those “instructional†PM’s from the moderator. I feel better now.

I appreciate your comments, Mark_Stokeld-

Obviously, being a little off will have negligible effect on headspace. Remounting with the sight on will be more critical.

Still, after having gone to so much trouble to fit for a tight chamber, it was nice to match the marks as perfectly as possible.

More importantly, I think, it appeals to my sense of the custom rifle, and the ethos of "the best gun".

Given my inexperience it may be unrealistic, but if I fail, it will not be for lack of effort.

"Good Enough" is never good enough.

flaco

N.B. I just reread that, and sheesh, I have a long way to go to live up to my own ideals.

LOL.

I generally use a pencil and straight edge to make my mark, in plain view, on the outside of the barrel, receiver and lug if separate. It doesn't damage any finish and makes things soooo much easier. I hope this helps.

What Malm said, or use soap stone, which will also aid when you are soldering it on, as the solder tends to not stick to soapstone.. there's a wide and smooth "welding" visegrip set that you can buy... radis the leading edges, and unless you kingkong then part, won't mark it, nor will there be any juggling of a hot part...

quite a few ways around the problem, without dismounting the problem.. pick one.

as for a "side safety" the jargon is 3position safety, as described in the private message, to actually ADD value to what you were trying to sell. the wisner safety, while a great tool, to most, does not have the same $$ value, due to it not being a KNOWN quality, due tot he vagarities of installation

Your quote of

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
"Good Enough" is never good enough.

should be related specifically to the safety... unless a couple of the very good metal guys install them, they are generally then just "good enough" and NEVER as nice as the 3 position safeies.


jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
What Malm said, or use soap stone, which will also aid when you are soldering it on, as the solder tends to not stick to soapstone.. there's a wide and smooth "welding" visegrip set that you can buy... radis the leading edges, and unless you kingkong then part, won't mark it, nor will there be any juggling of a hot part...

jeffe

Jeffe, so you solder the barrels on, or, is it just the witness marks you solder? What the hell are you talking about??? You ain't dippin into the eggnog this early are you?

Hey flaco,

Considering some of the practices I have recently read about on this “gunsmithing†forum that seem to be totally acceptable to allot of the posters it’s refreshing to hear someone talk about going the extra mile to assure things are done right.

There is no shortage of “bubbas†out there working on rifles, so take pride that you’re actually learning to have some exactness in your work that you can be proud of.

Jeffe,

On Dec 8th you wrote "rub bar soap everywhere you DO NOT want solder or the surface etched, and keep going"

And now you say, " or use soap stone, which will also aid when you are soldering it on, as the solder tends to not stick to soapstone"

So which one is it? Or is soap used just like soap stone (talc)???

You also stated that "as for a "side safety" the jargon is 3position safety". Page 11 of Brownells describes the Dakota M-98 safety as the "three position, side swing safety" and on page 12 it describes the N.E.C.G. Model 98 as "Machined steel, side swing safety" and on the same page it refers to the Gentry Model 700 as a "Side Swing Safety". On page 11, it also refers to the two position Wisner as a side swing safety. So it is apparent that they are both referred to as a side swing safety, whether you agree with that or not.

And I have seen ham fisted bubba installed 3 position safeties a lot more often than the 2 position ones. In fact I have never seen a poorly installed 2 position as it needs a mill and someone qualified to install it. There are folks that think they can do the 3 position without a mill but it never works out. The 2 position does not add the value but then it does not cost the same. There are a lot of customers out there that prefer the 2 position and the original mauser shroud. And they are not uniformed people. The two position safety will add value to the product.

Malm,
you can hone a soapstone to a point and make a center line.. then you can use it to mark around where you don't want solder. sorry, if that wasn't clear.

Chic, you can use bar soap to rub around on the metal you don't want solder on, or you can mark it clearly with soapstone (yes, they aren't related) ... but you knew that already.

Lets take a look at flaco's actual post on side safety, and you tell me which one it is

quote:

Drilled and tapped, commercial bolt shroud with side safety, and adjustable trigger.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=263100075#263100075


Wow, that reads like a wisner safety, doesn't it? Doesn't even SAY dakota or 3 position safety, on a daly action for $300 bucks? since the daly's are going for 250-275 TODAY, only a fool would assume that price included a $150 safety. and other than is originaly saying dakota, there's no way to know what it was anything but the daly trigger safety (as some trigger makers call their "slide" a "side safety")

almost all the 2 postion side swing safeties, and 3 position side swing safeties use that text...

remove that phrase (as it is a wash and non-specific) what do you get?
2 position
3 position

wow, this is a pointless discussion on Christmas Eve.


Merely Chirstmas, One and All

jeffe

“At times, it is amusing to read "opinions", if only to recognize the experience of the poster.â€

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Malm,
you can hone a soapstone to a point and make a center line.. then you can use it to mark around where you don't want solder. sorry, if that wasn't clear.

Chic, you can use bar soap to rub around on the metal you don't want solder on, or you can mark it clearly with soapstone (yes, they aren't related) ... but you knew that already.

jeffe

Bar soap??????

I just went out in my shop and took a piece of flat steel and clamped it in the vice at a slight downward angle. I took a bar of soap and rubbed about a ¼ inch wide strip at the lower end and painted Swiff 95 silver solder/flux paste right next to it on the uphill side. Heated it from below with a torch and as soon as the solder melted it ran right over where the soap had been without even slowing down. I let it cool down and scrubbed it hard with a wire brush and the solder is still sticking quite well to the area that had been rubbed with the bar soap.

Where does this stuff you post all time come from? Are you now going to say I used the wrong kind of soap or the wrong kind of solder?

“At times, it is amusing to read "opinions", if only to recognize the experience of the poster.â€

Oh, how true it is!

jeffe-

You must be having a very Merry Christmas, as... I'm certain that everyone who read my Mark X post noticed I did not refer to any side swing safety.

It was in this post, about my current project, that I mentioned the Dakota side swing safety.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=611109085#611109085

Your PM specifically referred to the Dakota safety I mention there, which Brownell's continues to call a "side swing safety."

Merry Christmas to all, and may Santa be very generous as he visits each AR house tonight.

flaco

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
jeffe-

You must be having a very Merry Christmas, as... I'm certain that everyone who read my Mark X post noticed I did not refer to any side swing safety.

flaco

Flaco .. actually, you did. please read the bolded print, from your mark X action.

Now, which do you mean? 3 position safety, 2 position safety, or slide safety on the trigger?

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
For sale this Interarms Mark X Action, new in box.

These are preferred over the Charles Daly and other later models by virtue of their better overall finish and floorplate release in the triggerguard bow, a la Argentine Mauser.

Drilled and tapped, commercial bolt shroud with side safety, and adjustable trigger.

This one is very clean, but with the floorplate release just a little proud of bow (see image) easily remedied with a small file.

$300.

Please PM me for further details (as my #&%** email is acting up. LOL).

flaco

N.B. Obviously, this must go to an FFL.

since i am easily confused by misuse of jorgon, which one did you mean, which time.

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:


Action is an Interarms Mark X, floorplate release in triggerguard bow, barrel 6.5x55 Lothar Walther, trigger Dayton/Traister, side swing safety by Dakota.
...
flaco

Which is why I sent you a PM, that a dakota safety is referred to as a 3position safety

Brownells says "three-position, side-swing safety of the Model 70" and "two-position, side swing." represent entirely different items,(dakota and wisner) $150 vs $28 bucks.

i sent you a helpful PM.. you didn't like it.. well, consider it a present you can send back.

jeffe

“since i am easily confused by misuse of jorgon, which one did you mean, which timeâ€

That’s no wonder. If you can’t even spell it (jargon, NOT jorgon) I guess it would be pretty confusing.

I am upset totally that you guys have hijacke this thread. Jeffe, you know better.

Regardless. Here is my take on these barell/receiver witness marks. I have never had occasion or need to use them. If I reinstall a barrel with sights, I use a level on the front sight, level it up and tighten in the barrel vise, then tighten the action so it is level with the front sight. On a Remington, I put a scope base on it to use as a leveling reference point. On the flat bottom ones, a parallel across the bottom. If it has an extractor cut, I do it like Malm says. This ain't rocket science here. On a smooth, no sight barrel, who gives a $hit if the marks don't line up as long as you get the barrel tight to your individual torque specs. Try the level method and don't look back. I use the Starret 3" one.

Jim

THanks for getting it back on track Jim. I wish Saeed would make a "Pissing Match" forum to keep this on eon the track of helping people with things. God only knows I need a ton of help!!!

I posted how I look at the extractor cut if it has one, and basically go by feel if there are no sights or extractor cuts and a slick barrel. With sights, I eyeball it and then put a 6" rule on the flat of the sight to get a more accurate eyeball. I have put levels on the flats too if I was not obviously spot-on.

Flaco-

I applaud your attitude. It takes a serious devotion to quality to turn out good work and always imrpove your work. One thing that comes with some experience is knowing where to spend your time, and what is less important. I know what you meant when you said "good enough" is never good enough and were not literally saying that. Otherwise we would all be working on our first rifle because we could never say it was good enough to finish!

The actual dimension you headspaced the rifle to was an arbitrary number. It was no better or worse than any other number within a specific range. Think about that one and understand it before reading further....

Just to pick a number, let's say you called the camber "finished" at .0012 over the "go" gauge. Your comment of "Still, after having gone to so much trouble to fit for a tight chamber, it was nice to match the marks as perfectly as possible" is totally understandable and I am glad to see you being so worried about quality. What you need to remeber is that if you are a few degrees off, you are only moving the chamber in or out a few ten thousandths of an inch. Your original +.0012 chamber is no better or no worse than a chamber that was cut +.002 or +.0002. They are all acceptable chambers that are equally good.

I remember the first time I was working in my mentor's shop and I was fileing a piece of metal and David looked up and saw what I was doing. He said,"You know, you can do that on the mill right there," and he nodded at a milling machine 4 feet away from me. I told him something about wanting to do it "the old way" by hand or some other rookie foolishness. The look he gave me was pricelss and I wish I had a camera with me. He just shrugged his shoulders and went back to working on what he was working on and I pissed away a lot of valuable shop time with a file in my hand.

That was about like your desire to get your marks just right. They are good experiences, especially when just starting out. We all need to learn the fundamentals and lear how to do things correctly. We only have a certain amount of time on this Earth, so we need to prioritize how we spend it. With experience you will learn where to spend your time.

Again, I applaud your attitude, because it is always better to have some one too devoted to quality as opposed to trying to churn out work as fast as possible. It is also great you have some one that will teach you in their shop and show you their way of doing things. I suggest doing it all "their way" on the first project, even if it is not how you read or heard about it from others. Posting here and asking others how they perform functions will help you develope your own way of doing things in the future.

Keep up the good work!

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
I was taught that the final seating torque is that which is applied when you give the handle a downward chop with the fleshy side of your closed fist to create the “crush fitâ€.

Please don't do things like that. In my medical specialty I see people all the time with a condition known as 'hypothenar hammer syndrome.' Your hand is NOT a hammer, and if you insist on using it like one you may run into real trouble - as in cold ulcerated fingers, or digits falling off from no blood supply.

Stockmakers are at particular risk, when they drive a chisel or other wood shaper with the palm of their hand.

Please be careful.

quote:

Originally posted by TMG:

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
I was taught that the final seating torque is that which is applied when you give the handle a downward chop with the fleshy side of your closed fist to create the “crush fitâ€.

Please don't do things like that. In my medical specialty I see people all the time with a condition known as 'hypothenar hammer syndrome.' Your hand is NOT a hammer, and if you insist on using it like one you may run into real trouble - as in cold ulcerated fingers, or digits falling off from no blood supply.

Stockmakers are at particular risk, when they drive a chisel or other wood shaper with the palm of their hand.

Please be careful.

I‘m not qualified to debate medicine with you, but the force used as I describe would hardly do much damage to ones hand. The wrench handle length is supplying all the mechanical advantage (leverage) and it doesn’t take much force to do it. I guess if a guy was worried about having his fingers fall off he could always pad the wrench or use a soft mallet instead of his fist.

Jim, I am glad to see you got the holier than thou kit for Christmas. I will buy the first beer at Reno to help wash away the aftertaste.

I'm in and out of this stew fast-

bar of soap to resist solder- I've used borax bar soap as soldering flux, and powdered borax soap (yep, Twenty Mule Team) for brazing in a pinch.

so, ya might wanna check your soap before you use it as a resist, see what kind you have.

soapstone works as a resist.

*poof*

tin can,

Borax is the primary ingredient in brazing fluxes, so your use of Borax soap “in a pinch†isn’t that far fetched.

But as you have noted, it ain’t gonna stop solder from flowing and sticking, in fact just the opposite is true.

SOAP

"soap" (ivory or dove) is some fatty oil (palm oil, for example) fatty acid and/or gylcerol.
in essence, a modified oil. i bet most of us did the "Soap making" experiements in high school... rendering fat, adding a caustic, and bang Lye soap.
As we all know, solder wont stick to a contaminated surface, unless you use LOT of acid flux and heat

any soap that has moisturizers probably has gylcerol in it.

borax

speaking of acid flux - boric acid, crystalized, is borax. Yep, it works like a flux. an acid flux. borax, not to cut a fine line, at all, is a detergent.

detergent

Yep, if you want to use borax as a flux... heck, i've seen borax and wirehangers get trailers back on the road (roadside brazing) ..

jeffe

Boy, now there’s a profound statement.

“As we all know, solder wont stick to a contaminated surface, unless you use LOT of acid flux and heat.â€

I wasn’t aware that solder would stick to much of anything unless you used HEAT.

I come here to learn about guns. What a waste of bandwidth.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:


I come here to learn about guns. What a waste of bandwidth.

You got that right.

Seems we have a group of folks that think they can look good by making others look bad.

quote:

Originally posted by duikerman:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:


I come here to learn about guns. What a waste of bandwidth.

You got that right.

Seems we have a group of folks that think they can look good by making others look bad.

There are a few of you that certainly don’t need any help from anyone else to look bad since you seem to do a fine job of that yourself.

Coming to Reno are you, Mr.Duikerman???

quote:

tin can,

Borax is the primary ingredient in brazing fluxes, so your use of Borax soap “in a pinch†isn’t that far fetched.

But as you have noted, it ain’t gonna stop solder from flowing and sticking, in fact just the opposite is true.

No kiddin'? thanks for the lesson- while I'm at it, you and some other know-it-alls have the fucking soap thing covered- and you've blown several chances to keep your yaps shut in the process.

it's tiresome.

grow up.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
Coming to Reno are you, Mr.Duikerman???

Been there for the last many years. Wouldn't miss it!
but for you;