If a person was building a custom std.98(30/06) with std.Blackburn Bottommetal, with the idea of having less depth in the stock, would it be as simple as just performing a decking cut parrallel to the exhisting line/top of the magbox to reduce the depth?...or does other geometry ideally need to change ie;
Do we ideally, need to reduce?/increase?/maintain? the angle between the bottom metal and the recievers main(bore) axis to keep things looking correct,thus requiring the building of a whole new specific botton metal unit?

Look at these photos to get a general idea of what I mean by slimming an m98.
May not take it to that extreme.

http://www.kesslerin.info/klassik.html

Okay...that is a good looking, trim rifle.

I'll be interested in hearing how it's done.

Garrett

Do you mean you want it thinner (shorter), from magplate to bolt?

If you wanted that done, you would place the bottom metal into a jig, with the top of the mag box perfectly horizontal, and remove whatever depth you wanted from all engagement surfaces... front screw well, reshape the mag box entirely, and the notice/hump where the new trigger (assuming replacement style) would interact with the floorplate release, if you go that far.

you would then have to part and reweld the trigger, to prevent interference with the bow of the triggerguard.

The metal work would be the cheap part.

the stock would cost serious coin, as it would be a bespoke pattern.


The rifle you offer pictures of is NOT shorter from floorplate to bolt... the stock is cut to be amazingly thin, in all profiles. It is about 1/16 or 3/32 low along the action (it's below midpoint of the radius of the action and barrel) .. it is severly reduced in weight by the panel/wrist interface... it must drop nearly 1/4 of an inch on this side, making the wrist VERY (i like it) then.

the stock is then shaped for the bottom of the stock to SLOPE into the bottom of the trigger guard rather than roll into. this makes the stock look EXTREMELY thin

I am holding an interwar year stock in my hand, that the same "trick" was done to match the bottom of the stock. at the front shoulder of the magbox, right at the bottom, the stock is not 1/8" thick... this makes it look and feel VERY VERY thin.


But it also makes it look shorter, when it is not. Here's why. Normally a stock "rolls" into the bottom, nice fat curve, that ends in something like a flat, where the mag box goes in. This makes the stock look about 1/4 to 3/8 taller. The roll is generally a complex curve, that slopes from mid point on something like a 24"r, and then picks up to like 1/2 to 3/4r right at the bottom.

This sporter style is still a radius, but much flatter. I would guess it's more like 60 to 75"r, and this section goes from mid line to 1/8 of an inch off the bottom metal, rather than ~1/4 to 5/16. Then the radius at the edge is far more abrupt.. like 3/16... not quite fully round.


jeffe

Woodjack, you would need to make a parallel cut to accomplish what you describe. You do need to maintain the angle between the bottom metal and the main bore mostly because of the fixed ocnfiguration of the front screw. If the angle gets off even a little bit, the bottom metal does not want to mate up with the recoil tang screw hole stub extension (stub and extension are a bit redundant but done that way for clarification).

I don't necessarily agree that the stock pictured would cost any more as it could just be built from the blank or a person could modify any pattern that they have. It does not have to be that time consuming.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
The rifle you offer pictures of is NOT shorter from floorplate to bolt... I am holding an interwar year stock in my hand, that the same "trick" was done to match the bottom of the stock.


jeffe

I think it's more than a "trick" or an optical illusion with the stock. After taking some eyeball/brain measurements based on a couple of "key" landmarks, I would have to say that the mag box appears to be no longer capable of holding the same number of rounds as it once did. I believe it's been chopped.

And, Woodjack, outside of addressing the usual things like readjusting screw length, trigger lever etc., if you follow Chics advise and keep everything square to the front screw, you should have no problem "squashing" it.

Woodjack,

Take a look a Gun Digest 2000, pg. 38 is about a STALKING Rifle by Ken Ide. He makes reduced capasity Mauser 98's and Springfield '03 by reducing the depth of the mag. box and shortening the trigger.
There is a gunmaker in Austria, I can remember the name, that makes reduced capicity (3 shot) Mauser 98's. They show a 98 triggerguard that is reduced and swiss cheesed and a production shortened 98 trigger. I have one of their triggers and just need to get the mag box reduced when funds are available. They look to be a nice handy carring gun. There is also a reduced capisity Rem. Model 7 that uses a 1/2"shortened Rifle Basix trigger and a blind magazine stock.
Good luck with your project.
Bob

Woodjack,

As posted by the last three gentlemen.....this is quite easy to accomplish. Grind or file off surface of the magazine box that mate or insert in receiver. Make sure this is a parallel surface to original.

You will likely need to grind a bit off the end of the trigger where it bottoms in the trigger guard.....not a big deal.

1/8" is a huge amount to relieve.....it really slims up the depth of a stock. I've seen that much relieved on Springfields without problem....even with their angled rear screw.

If inletting to a semi-inlet stock, you may wish to take up the "slack" in both bbl-action and bottom metal.....depending on the configuration of the grip area. If there's enough wood in that area to do what I want.....I just inlet the bottom metal deeper until it mates with the receiver.

GV

Just as an example this intermediate98-7x57 would be an even dandier little rig if done in a trimmer version.
If for a stalking rifle, mag capacity would not be an issue,but if it was a concern to someone, then when making the bottom metal,they could make the magbox wider at the same time making it shallower, maintain magazine capacity.
I have seen this done in other examples. Blackburn made/makes bottom metal for std98 stdmagnum cartridges, that is wider in the box, offering extra capacity like a dropbox, but maintaining the trimness of the std bottom metal.They came complete with a dedicated wider follower.


this is bastardised photo where i have reduced the depth of stock,shorter bolt handle, lower rings and lower bases.

Taking measurments from this picture.. the front depth of the mag well is 5/8" ..
on a M98 it's 1 1/16"..

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Just as an example this intermediate98-7x57 would be an even dandier little rig if done in a trimmer version.
If for a stalking rifle, mag capacity would not be an issue,but if it was a concern to someone, then when making the bottom metal,they could make the magbox wider at the same time making it shallower, maintain magazine capacity.
I have seen this done in other examples. Blackburn made/makes bottom metal for std98 stdmagnum cartridges, that is wider in the box, offering extra capacity like a dropbox, but maintaining the trimness of the std bottom metal.They came complete with a dedicated wider follower.


this is bastardised photo where i have reduced the depth of stock,shorter bolt handle, lower rings and lower bases.

Woodjack,

you cannot just make the mag wider and expect it to feed. It don't work that way.

The link to the other rifle is very interesting in dead. Now I need to refresh my German, but nice rifles on that page.

My point is that the rifle in that link is PROBABLY standard, but a tiny, delicate sporter stock, like a guild or cigerette or sauer sporter.

a scratch built stock shouldn't cost more..

but to copy a pattern, then have it modified and then dupliated would cost more than a standard duplication

I have chopped and channeled the original pic, in the second pic, about 3/8.. had to rotate the pic to get a straight line through it


jeffe

Page 13 of David Wesbrook's book has pictures of his personal Mauser 7x57 that has had the magazine cut down to three round capacity. It's a very trim-looking rig.

The Kesslerin rifles are very nice to look at.

They sure look out of balance to me.

This last stock was a beautiful stock
before it was trimmed up.

I'd be afraid of breaking them off at
the wrist.

When I was a kid, wanted to lighten my
'17 Eddystone. Left the iron original
other than taking the rear sights off for
a scope.

The stock was thinned much like these only
the whole buttstock was also.
Thickness at butt was 3/4"x4" high.

About all that accomplished other than
ruining a fine original Enfield stock.
Was it made the gun a vicious kicker.

Didn't take very many shots to junk that
idea and round up another full sized stock
for it.

Many times my opinions insult and make others
mad. But, I must say thinning these have made
beautiful stocks plumb damned UGLY.

Eye's of the beholder guys!! Just MY opinion
IF you like 'em like that, more power to ya.

George

According to the info on the web site under the section "magazines" it has a 3 round mag, so they trimmed something off.

The full stock carbine gave me little quivers and shivers... When the picture popped up it was love, or most likley LUST. It quite honestly took my breath away.

How do you gents feel about the wooden bolt knobs shown on a couple of their samples? I think its a wonderful touch, but I worry about the practicality on a business gun. I would be worried it would break off; there isn't much wood there to support the forces generated in a "OH Shit!" moment.
Maybe its fine, that's why I'm asking.

Wow, nobody has an opinion on the wooden bolt knob?

Here is another example of a trimmed98.
This is ForrestBs' 6.5x55 g33/40 that I have shortened to intermediate length(maybe even a little less),reduced the depth of stock and shortened the fore-end. Below that is the original rifle for comparison.






And what do you think of this, its a HartmannWeiss magnum mauser, that I have trimmed in action length,reduced depth of stock, but retained the dropbox, sounds weird but I kind of like it.



Original rifle;


Here is an intermediate that I believe benefits from slimming also;

Woodjack,
When do you start? This is something like the 2039422340983438029th "best quality" "cost not the object" project you've inquired about, and I was wondering what the status on the other 2039422340983438028 is to date?

dodn't mind commenting on projects to be, or kicking the can about on a cool project, just wondering if you have started any of these projects?



thanks
jeffe

You go Martin!!!

Then you have to take into account why you are slimming the rifle up and ask if you have that accomplished. Sometimes in smithing we spend so much time wondering if we could do something that we forget the real question, if we should. If slimming it any more than that is required, go for it. If just because you might like it better, risks might outweigh the benefits if anything doesn't work out. Just my observation and .02 worth from the post so far.

Jeff,

Some exaggeration on your part there.Learn that WMD technique from GW did ya? I have not propopsed many projects at all maybe 1/2 dozen. The "cost no object"minature mauser is the one I remember most, is not going anywhere at the moment. HartmannWeiss were not interested.
Secondly, I have owned typical bestgrade98s' already which now belong to other guys who also have other best quality 98s' and pre64s' in 6mmRem upto 458win (about 20 or so rifles)which I am free to borrow if need be(unfortunately no doubles ). Obviously my situation is different to most. Accordingly,I have the luxury to play and figure different ideas, that I run through on this forum that may interest some people.There is no hurry,they will get done when they get done.

Now,
Do you like the extratrim 6.5 above? a .250/3000 would be fantastic looking something like that.
Just to be different,What about that extratrim HW with dropbox in anything from30-06 to 9.3x62 ??

Rusty Marlin,
I kindaike the wooden bolt knob, though personally, I would not have it done. I would say the knob has steel insert that screws onto the handle> I would not worry too much about it comming off if just a small cal.stalking rifle. a nice bit of ebony would be neat.

You guys need to see the rifle that Lee Helgeland had in his booth at the guild show this year. Was so slim you had to look at for a few minutes to convince yourself it was a full size mauser. Wish I had some pics of it.
gunmaker

Definitely like the looks of the color case on that receiver...

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
You guys need to see the rifle that Lee Helgeland had in his booth at the guild show this year. Was so slim you had to look at for a few minutes to convince yourself it was a full size mauser. Wish I had some pics of it.
gunmaker

SDH posted a photo of it in this months Sports Afield magazine along with his articles on custom guns.

To me, choppin a rifle like that is a total waste of time and just bubbain it. I have a m30 someone did that to , what a mess.

Get ya a old steel 33 coupe body all dented up if ya wanna chop somethin...