I have a very nice H. Doumolin 30-06 on a commercial FN action. The barrel seems overtimed as witnessed by the rear sight looking slanted compared to the scope bases. At first I feared crooked base holes but they lined up using my scope drilling jig. Im quite sure that either the sights were put on crooked or more likely had some excess head space and was fixed. The only witness mark is about 25 degrees top dead center. No other witness mark observed. I am no gunsmith... but is there a remedy other than taking the barrel a whole turn and rechambering? It wasn't too noticeable at first. Im going to use a scope and I don't think it will matter much either so i'll likely live with it.

Bottom line; live with it.
To make the sights plumb you would have to do one of three things.
1: Re-locate the sights.
2: Loosen the barrel a bit, which might or might not make it too loose.
3: Go one thread around, rechamber and re fit the barrel. Then it wouldn't fit the stock and look like crap.
Ignore any witness marks; make sure the barrel is tight. Likely whomever fitted it did not care that the sights were not square.
Oh, option 4; remove the sights and plug the slots. Then you wouldn't notice that they aren't square and you aren't going to use them anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
There's another fix I read about years ago./..may have been in Roy Dunlap's book...anyway, you remove barrel, Using about a 3/8" wide cold chisel, the tip ground so it fits in the thread at about a 60 degree angle. Using a moderately heavy hammer, start at the shoulder end, and you'll slightly move the thread toward the muzzle...work around the entire thread,


Sounds like body and fender work, but by Gawd it works

Sounds like real smithin’

It works very nicely and the bbl will draw up nice and snug.
Just don't over do it with the hammer wacks.
Be sure and work your way all the way around the thread. Don't skip around and just place a few hits here and there.
I've used a much smaller faced punch, more of a square face and just big enough to contact the height of the thread when layed in at the angle so it contacts the entire side of it.
You can ride the punch right around the thread with a little practice and not have to do individual strikes.
Grind the punch shank right behind the face with some relief to the face so it doesn't get in the way of setting the face down into the bottom of the thread.

Y'all beat me to it, been there, done that. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
There's another fix I read about years ago./..may have been in Roy Dunlap's book...anyway, you remove barrel, Using about a 3/8" wide cold chisel, the tip ground so it fits in the thread at about a 60 degree angle. Using a moderately heavy hammer, start at the shoulder end, and you'll slightly move the thread toward the muzzle...work around the entire thread,

Sounds like body and fender work, but by Gawd it works

Thats a mighty good tip, thanks. I have used a hardened roller tool in the lathe at 1 or 2 degrees to swage the shoulder back but this sounds like it would leave no visible marks. Definitely going to try it next time the need arises.

Forgot about that one; I have done that too.
Also keep in mind that swaging and moving the threads forward does not affect headspace, but swaging and moving the shoulder back, will increase headspace by ten thousandths per 45 degrees of travel. Something to keep in mind, but usually were are only talking a few degrees.

One more method; drill and tap your receiver for a set screw and mill a recess for it into the barrel threads; then you will have a switch barrel rifle.

It works well to tighten up the occasional TD rifle or shotgun that is loose and with no other immediate inexpensive option.
I do however recommend that the joint be put back together and left that way,,no further TD

Repeated TD on that swaged thread isn't going to take long before you are right back to the orig problem once again.
No reason to keep taking those old TD guns apart over and over again anyway.
The days of riding the trolley with your leg-o-mutton cased TD Savage 99 over your shoulder seem to be in the past.

Many places now you'd be lucky to get it from the house to the family suburban w/o someone calling the SWAT team out for a crazy gunman.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
There's another fix I read about years ago./..may have been in Roy Dunlap's book...anyway, you remove barrel, Using about a 3/8" wide cold chisel, the tip ground so it fits in the thread at about a 60 degree angle. Using a moderately heavy hammer, start at the shoulder end, and you'll slightly move the thread toward the muzzle...work around the entire thread,

Sounds like body and fender work, but by Gawd it works

I agree that this fix is permanent.

I wonder how the reaction to Mr. Wiebe's suggestion would have been different if anyone of lesser experience had suggested it....

What about a bit of plumbers's hemp?

NO.
But you can solder the threads to build them up.

You can shim between the barrel and the receiver. Need to cut the barrel back a bit to allow room for the shim.

quote:

You can shim between the barrel and the receiver

A recommended fix for revolver barrels

Again, do not forget that if you shim, you increase headspace. which may or may not matter.
Moving the threads, or applying solder to them, does not.

True, but at least they are decreasing headspace instead of increasing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by 2152hq:
It works well to tighten up the occasional TD rifle or shotgun that is loose and with no other immediate inexpensive option.
I do however recommend that the joint be put back together and left that way,,no further TD

Repeated TD on that swaged thread isn't going to take long before you are right back to the orig problem once again.
No reason to keep taking those old TD guns apart over and over again anyway.
The days of riding the trolley with your leg-o-mutton cased TD Savage 99 over your shoulder seem to be in the past.

Many places now you'd be lucky to get it from the house to the family suburban w/o someone calling the SWAT team out for a crazy gunman.

I have built a fair number of TD's. I agreee that ANY thread will wear, but thread wear is not the boogey man that some think it is. I offer to re time any TD I've built for my working lifetime. I was asked to do it once!..and then it was not needed...just the guy getting his money's worth, I guess.

Even those old Model 12's went 15-20 years or more without adjustment and that is a very fine interrupted thread.

One of your custom built TD's is most likely a bit better set up and precision built than say a Savage 99 TD.
Once one of the latter goes limp, there is no adj to take up. The thread swage can bring the bbl back and set the shoulder firmly against the frame once again in assembly.
But these I advise to put together and leave them as such. They will (should) be assembled tight enough so as not to be a hand disassembly TD anymore anyway..

The Winchester Leveraction TDs I do the same thing,,swage the thread.
Yes they have the adj system inside the bbl extension, but that is the most rinkydink thing W ever came up with I think.
Three set screws tightened up to push out (dent) the metal out the back of the extension so it bears against the frame again.
Great idea on your premier product.

Swage the thread and leave it together as a non TD rifle. Save the gun from having excess HS from the bbl pushed forward,, the muzzle canted upwards and a gap showing the bottom of the joint betw the bbl extension & frame.

The Model 12/97/42 can go a lifetime w/o ever having to have the bbl assembly collar adjusted. It all depends on how much it's used/taken down.
Some oldsters are still in their orig factory #1 setting.
Others are way out near the end of life on the first collar.
Winchester sold 5 different barrel collars of increasing index to make up for loose bbl assembly on the Model 12 and 42.
Somebody there knew the joint would wear out somehow and needed a compensation fix.
It all depends on how they are used and treated.

Boys my stones ain't large enough to start whacking away on the treads... any of you with good experience willing to do it?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
There's another fix I read about years ago./..may have been in Roy Dunlap's book...anyway, you remove barrel, Using about a 3/8" wide cold chisel, the tip ground so it fits in the thread at about a 60 degree angle. Using a moderately heavy hammer, start at the shoulder end, and you'll slightly move the thread toward the muzzle...work around the entire thread,

Sounds like body and fender work, but by Gawd it works

I agree that this fix is permanent.

I wonder how the reaction to Mr. Wiebe's suggestion would have been different if anyone of lesser experience had suggested it....

yep -- had a 20 post barrel plumber said it, with a direct quote from the book, it would have been derided -- (or the guy what used to sell on ebay/gunbroker his services for installing adams and bennett barrels)

having been a professional painter, I'll use this as a JOKE ---

what's the difference between a DIY painter and a pro? When, and they will, they paint themselves into a corner, the pro knows how to get out

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Forgot about that one; I have done that too.
Also keep in mind that swaging and moving the threads forward does not affect headspace, but swaging and moving the shoulder back, will increase headspace by ten thousandths per 45 degrees of travel. Something to keep in mind, but usually were are only talking a few degrees.

One more method; drill and tap your receiver for a set screw and mill a recess for it into the barrel threads; then you will have a switch barrel rifle.

I believe some older English rifles had a screw in the receiver that could be loosened to allow removal of the takedown barrel.
Can you make a switch bbl. using a set screw in the bottom of the receiver and into the bbl. thread that allows the bbl. to be easily removed by hand or a strap wrench? I am not looking for a takedown but simply a rifle that could occasionally have a different caliber bbl. installed..

just saying -- if you "unwind" the barrel this way, it WILL increase headspace.. making the datum longer

Head space is determined by the contact between the barrel shoulder with the front of the receiver. As long as these surfaces are unchanged and the joint between them remains tight, head space is not changed. Tapping (moving) the threads allows this contact, and tightness, to take place slightly sooner when turning the barrel into the receiver. It is still the same contact between the same two surfaces and produces the same head space.

Too many words. Sorry about that.

quote:

Originally posted by gwahir:
Head space is determined by the contact between the barrel shoulder with the front of the receiver. As long as these surfaces are unchanged and the joint between them remains tight, head space is not changed. Tapping (moving) the threads allows this contact, and tightness, to take place slightly sooner when turning the barrel into the receiver. It is still the same contact between the same two surfaces and produces the same head space.

Too many words. Sorry about that.

I get what you are saying, but not in this case, as you are CHANGING this relationship .. headspace is from the datum point to the bolt face -- and of you retime the barrel, you would retime headspace .. whatever liner distance that the barrel has changed in thread pitch ..

Heck, let me try another way .. if you have index marks at exactly 12:00 on the barrel and receiver, hand tight, and zero headspace .. if you move the barrel in harder on final setting, you would have negative headspace (-0.001 for example) and might not now close on a headpsace gauge .. if you hand tightened, but not as tight, you would increase headspace .. again, might be 0.001 ..

if you EFFECTIVELY turn back the timing, you add .. so, if at 0, then 0.001 is no big deal .. if it was as 0.0045 (assuming a no go is 0.005 longer) then adding 0.001 would allow you to close the bolt on a no-go .. thereby increasing headspace ....

i think your assumption is returning the barrel to "zero" without modification, but what is happening is you would be modify the threads to be fully engaged with the barrel in a "short" position, increasing headspace...

but this might be just fly specs

The point of contact, whether on the shoulder or the c-ring, remains the same. The distance between the face and the shoulder remains the same; only the location of the face of the threads has changed. This means, if the shoulder was .002" away from the receiver face before the threads were swaged, it will be .002" away after.
On one Winchester take-down, I installed a sleeve onto the barrel tenon by turning the tenon down and thread it to 28 tpi. I then installed the sleeve and threaded it to the original specs. After this, it was a simple matter to orient the sleeve so that the barrel indexed as the shoulder tightened up on the receiver. The orientation of the barrel had changed but the headspace was unchanged. Just like on a Model 12 or '97.
In another case, I cut the shoulder back to correct the headspace on a '92 and used a similar sleeve to get the sights back on top. If the shoulder had been moved a little less, I might have swaged the threads as described to accomplish the same thing.
The point of all of this is to illustrate that it is the contact surface at the shoulder or at the c-ring which establishes headspace. The orientation of the thread is meaningless except regarding the indexing of the barrel. I have, of course, not said anything everyone here does not already know. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The point of contact, whether on the shoulder or the c-ring, remains the same. The distance between the face and the shoulder remains the same; only the location of the face of the threads has changed. This means, if the shoulder was .002" away from the receiver face before the threads were faced, it will be .002" away after.
On one Winchester take-down, I installed a sleeve onto the barrel tenon by turning the tenon down and thread it to 28 tpi. I then installed the sleeve and threaded it to the original specs. After this, it was a simple matter to orient the sleeve so that the barrel indexed as the shoulder tightened up on the receiver. The orientation of the barrel had changed but the headspace was unchanged. Just like on a Model 12 or '97.
In another case, I cut the shoulder back to correct the headspace on a '92 and used a similar sleeve to get the sights back on top. If the shoulder had been moved a little less, I might have swaged the threads as described to accomplish the same thing.
The point of all of this is to illustrate that it is the contact surface at the shoulder or at the c-ring which establishes headspace. The orientation of the thread is meaningless except regarding the indexing of the barrel. I have, of course, not said anything everyone here does not already know. Regards, Bill

Good post Bill. I struggled a little to see how the headspace wouldn't be changed but can understand perfectly now that headspace is not changed one bit. Simply put, if a barrel was blank with no index marks and external attachments and had a tenion with interchangeable threads, provided it was headspaced correctly with the point of contact in the receiver being on the shoulder or c-ring then the tenion threads could be interchanged at will, the only thing that happens is that the barrel will screw up to the contact points with more or less rotations depending on the TPI of the tenion thread and with no external attachments on the barrel, sights, sling hangers etc., no one is the wiser as to the type of thread on the barrel tenion, it is immaterial in so far as headspacing.

Modifying the pitch of the threads as per Duane's suggestion just brings the barrel into battery where it was originally headspaced a fraction sooner on rotation thus leaving the iron sights properly level as the original OP wants, brilliant.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Wish I'd never brought it up...By the way...it's been proven that bumble bees can't fly

I for one, am terribly glad you did bring it up. I have an integral rib octagon barrel I picked up cheap and I've been wondering how I was gonna deal with it.

Now I know!

Thank you.

Don't pull a Speerchucker!

.

Duane, like JTEX said. I have a Farquharson with an octagon barrel that will get the treatment! Don't know for bumble bees though.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Wish I'd never brought it up...By the way...it's been proven that bumble bees can't fly

I for one, am terribly glad you did bring it up. I have an integral rib octagon barrel I picked up cheap and I've been wondering how I was gonna deal with it.

Now I know!

Thank you.

Don't pull a Speerchucker!

.

It is guys like Duane and Speerchucker who make this place so worthwhile.

Now Duane has deleted his posts on this thread.... I wish that some people would keep their opinions to themselves and others would be thicker skinned.

No twisted knickers...just decided to take myself out of the loop

Keep in mind a mauser should bottom on the shoulder simultaneously with the shank. The only ways to maintain that desirable situation is to cut both back something less than one thread; or to "move" the threads as has been suggested. The former is correct, the latter is something of a "bodge".