The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing ATF's backdoor registration scheme...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
I did not know this, but the ATF requires all FFL holders to maintain a log book. Any firearm that stays overnight, even if you just wanted to have bases and rings installed, and a scope mounted. My guy told me that if the company changes anything in their name even, like converting to an LLC, the old book has to be turned in. wonderful... | ||
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Do you have a concealed weapons license? Ever bought a hunting license? Ever taken a rifle out of the country? Bought ammo on a credit card? Filled out a 4473? Joined the NRA? Subscribe to "prepper" magazines? There are plenty of ways you already self-identify as a gun owner. If you fear the government coming and taking your guns, you are barking up the wrong tree. And don't play the "from my cold dead hands" routine. No one in CT fought back did they? And you won't either. No one can outgun the modern US government. In the meantime, make more friends than enemies. | |||
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BUT.... the logbook (called a bound book) and 4473's if used need "only" be maintained for a period of 20 years. Soooo, if you bought a gun in, say,1990 AND the dealer discarded records over 20 years old, then you would be home free. Unfortunately a lot of dealers see the ATF staring back at them from their bowl of breakfast cereal. I know a few who won't even do multiple handgun sales because they are afraid that the required report will somehow,"red flag" them.... So I imagine that a lot of dealers have all their records going back to1968... Yes, we are well and truly screwed.. A good job is sometimes just a series of expertly fixed fark-ups. Let's see.... is it 20 years experience or is it 1 years experience 20 times? And I will have you know that I am not an old fart. I am a curmudgeon. A curmudgeon is an old fart with an extensive vocabulary and a really bad attitude. | |||
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Nothing new about the "overnight rule", been there for as long as I can remember. | |||
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Not exactly correct. Log or bound book must be kept for ever or turned in to ATF. It's for the purpose of tracing. I had last year a trace that went back to my grandfathers book for a sale in 1948. We found the record. 4473's can be distroyed after 20 years. | |||
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27CFR ss478.129: e) Records of dealers and collectors under the Act. The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors under the Act of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained through December 15, 1988, after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be discarded. A good job is sometimes just a series of expertly fixed fark-ups. Let's see.... is it 20 years experience or is it 1 years experience 20 times? And I will have you know that I am not an old fart. I am a curmudgeon. A curmudgeon is an old fart with an extensive vocabulary and a really bad attitude. | |||
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If things were that cut and dry, the Marxist bastards wouldnt be so afraid of our 2nd amendment rights. Would they.. | |||
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So...who's going to outgun the Gov't? P.S. They aren't using guns to restrict your rights. If you think guns are the answer to keeping your guns, you are already fooled. There does not exist a body with enough cohesiveness nor determination to stand up - with arms - against the gov't. The fight is political, legal, social, and cultural. | |||
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That is true for the most part. But sometimes things change. And if things ever did change that much then how many "Government employees" do you think would really stand and bear arms against their own? They are not mindless clones you know. That Government body that you hold in such high regard is made up of everyday Americans too, many of whom just happen to believe in their Liberty! There are already numerous county sheriffs that insist that they would not enforce a gun ban. Like I said, sometimes things change. The bottom line is that we have our 2nd amendment rights for a reason and a whole lot of us recognize the gravity of that. And THAT is not something that ANYONE should take lightly. | |||
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The 20 year rule applies to 4473"s. My last ATF audit the agents wanted to see the past years records back to the gun control act of 1934. We've been selling firearms since 1926. We often get traces why beyond the 20 years. Just try to tell the ATF tracing dept. that you can't find a records. Guarantee a audit. If I wanted to not keep the book after 20 years, I have to turn it in even if it was records from 50 years ago. Just went through my annual audit about 6 months ago and they were adiment of perminant record book/log keeping. | |||
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...a want to add. I know that the 20 year rule is kind of up to interpretation. In the past I've asking about the "book" and the ATF wants it preserved for traces. That state it is because of most traces are for firearms over 20 years. That also want it turned in if we choose not to retain it. My opinion is, I word rather keep it than trust it to big brother. | |||
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WLW, I don't doubt for a second that what you say is true, and those things actually happened. However as I read it, section 478 is very clear, and 20 year old records may be discarded. While the ATF or individual agents may "want" you to keep them, or "send them in, " or "think it is a good idea" to "have" them, their thoughts are just that, thoughts. They don't change the regulation or legal requirements. I've encountered "thinking" too, and I simply ask to see it in black and white. Can't show me, too bad. I worked with federal regulations and such for 30 years. (Which doesnt always make me right btw). They say what they say. And I often had times where some of my people would misinterpret or make things up as they go along. This needed to be corrected, needless to say. Some would act as if they "were" the law instead of merely enforcing it, and it could be easy to fall into that trap. There are a lot of those types out there, and they are the ones who make you see the ATF in your breakfast cereal and hiding under your bed. There are a few sections that refer to record retention. One says that records from before Dec 16, 1968 may be discarded (the effective date of GCA 68), another deals specifically with 4473's, and then there is the one I quoted which deals with acquisition and disposition records in general. Now this does not leave out the possibility that there may be additional individual state requirements that differ from what is on the federal books. Next time you encounter the ATF with one of these issues, just for grins, ask the agent to "show it to you in writing." They are supposed to be able to do this. If he won't, his supervisor surely can. You might both be surprised. A good job is sometimes just a series of expertly fixed fark-ups. Let's see.... is it 20 years experience or is it 1 years experience 20 times? And I will have you know that I am not an old fart. I am a curmudgeon. A curmudgeon is an old fart with an extensive vocabulary and a really bad attitude. | |||
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The "from my cold dead hands..." thing really only applies to those who believe there are principles worth dying for. Or, to make a point. Are you willing to go all the way. | |||
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Agreed, Rich. And I don't think any of us are willing to be the "test case...." A good job is sometimes just a series of expertly fixed fark-ups. Let's see.... is it 20 years experience or is it 1 years experience 20 times? And I will have you know that I am not an old fart. I am a curmudgeon. A curmudgeon is an old fart with an extensive vocabulary and a really bad attitude. | |||
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The least worry I have in my life is that the ATF will go thru a bunch of handwritten "Bound Books" to register my guns. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Wstrnhuntr, don't put too much faith, if any, in those government folks just being normal people. They do what they are told, when they are told and how they are told. If the "government" says you are a terrorist and tells them so, rightly or wrongly, that is EXACTLY how they will act. I don't forget things like Ruby Ridge, Waco or Kent State. Those government employees were told those folks were bad people and acted accordingly. I have been involved enough with the military and police to know they will do what they are told and kill whomever they are told. Part of the Army thing, "go where you are told and kill who you are told. Don't question, just obey orders". And like I have said before, they will not come for the guns en masse, they will drag you out of your house individually, handcuff you on your lawn for all the neighbors to see and take whatever they damn well please because they KNOW that NONE of your neighbors will do a damned thing to help you. Same with the notion that H47 has. Are you going to be the one that says, "No, I don't have to retain those records according to XXX?" You will do that right up until they come back with the Marshall and arrest your ass and lose your business and house and everything else while you wait for trial (if there is one) in Leavenworth, just to make an example of you. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Backdoor registration is probably already a fait accompli. Just like NSA not having to clutter their hard drives with phone records (they just get them from the phone companies as needed), they will collate credit card records, hunting license records, and internet search history. A little data-mining and voila, the deed is 99.4% done. There may be a few Kaczinskis off-the-grid, not enough to worry about. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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I actually asked the others that attended different ATF seminars and they also were told it a forever or until turned in, in regard to the A.&D. book. I did look up the statue and it does talk about 20 years. The common question from all the guys was, why are they calling for traces, that are older than us, if there is a 20 year rule. With that, I fired off an email to the Los Angeles ATF chief paper checker to let him clarify. I'll keep you posted on what he says. Will | |||
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I suspect that there are more databases than we're made aware of, it took only a couple of hours to find the guy who bought the San Bernardino shooters' rifles. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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Old records... so IF you need to keep them for ever.. DO NOT buy archival quality acid free bound books. Buy the cheapest chi-com import stuff you can get. Use a fountain pen for entries in your log book. SHTF, and all of a sudden, your roof leaked.. right onto the cheap paper books filled out with fountain pen ink.. Have fun sorting that out fellas! NRA Benefactor. Life is tough... It's even tougher when you're stupid... John Wayne | |||
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I got a reply from our local ATF auditor. You guys are correct. Dealers only need to keep 4473's and log book for 20 years. Manufactures have to keep records for ever. I asked why they call on traces over 20 years and expect data. He says, "Because they know you will not discard the book". He also implied that there was a time that they lead dealers to believe, it was in the dealers best interest to have what ever the ATF wanted available. " It looked good for the dealer". I stand corrected, and going to do some file cleaning. | |||
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WLW, that is why the ATF made the clarification to classify gunsmiths as "manufacturers" a month or two ago in the purposefully nebulous regulations. My guy told me he tried keeping the records in a loose leaf binder, just so he could destroy them after 20 on an annual basis. That is illegal as well, according to ATF. | |||
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ATFE has made no changes concerning who is a manufacturer and who is a gunsmith. The US Deparment of State, under the International Trade in Arms Regulations which regulates the export of items on the U.S. Munitions List, 'clarified' their definition of what specifice activity constitutes manufacturing of firearms. | |||
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.......which begs the question, "Who gave the State Dept the authority to regulate gunsmith activities in which nothing is exported??" A mechanic who improves engine performance is not considered an auto manufacturer, but a gunsmith who uses a lathe to improve a rifle's performance IS considered to be a gun manufacturer. No common sense there, just more control. ************************ Our independence is dying. | |||
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How about the Arms Export Control Act (enacted 1976) which gives your President the authority to control exports of defense articals and services. Regulations get changed and ammended every day without the approval of the Congress. Hell, if Congress had to approve regulations or changes made to regulations it might make someone mad who then wouldn't vote for that representation which approved or dis-approved of the regulations/changes,, and they couldn't have that! Hence, "over reach' runs rampant and at the will of the executive branch of government. So, in essence, the people are,,,,, for electing a congress that will allow regulation without sufficent over sight and for electing a President who is more than willing to take advantage of that and use 'regulation' when he can't get 'legislation' that agrees with his agenda..... The point of my post quoted above is, point your finger in the right direction. ATFE hasn't made any changes, the DoS has, probably under direction from the executive branch. Makes the 'cool-aid' drinkers all that more anxious to get out there and vote for HRC, don't it! | |||
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slivers, if the state dept says shit, the ATF says where and how much... | |||
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Ignorance is bliss! | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing ATF's backdoor registration scheme...
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