ok a serious question that I wasn't able to find anything in the archives.
is it acceptable for you, to adjust the sear engagement so that when the safety is off...you can get the hammer to drop by slamming the rifle butt on the ground?
this may sound stupid, but on my own gun(classic 300WM) I have adjusted the trigger to the point that I really like the crispness and weight, but, when the saftey is off I can get the hammer to fall by slamming it butt down on the floor. I was a little uncomfortable with that and adjusted for a little more sear, now I cannot get the hammer to fall(safety off)with rough handling. It is still a nice trigger, but I want to know what you do with your personal guns.
to be clear, it will not fall when adjusted light when the safety is on,
I'm am not a certified gunsmith, but, have all the mechanical skills to do the fine work. what is the benchmark for a well done trigger job, vis a vis safety off, banging it hard off the floor?

please no flaming about lawsuits. There are too many lawyers. Just a simple question

thanks

LT

In my opinion your rifle is unsafe. Either the weight/ sear or both needs work. I will set my triggers in the 3# range. With the safety off I will slam the butt and hit the bolt shroud etc with a mallet. If it goes off then I will adjust it until it doesn't

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
In my opinion your rifle is unsafe.

Yup...I agree and it needs a fixin.

fair enough, and I did adjust it back towards the safer side, regardless of how hard I bounce it off the floor with the safety off, it will not drop the hammer.
I don't have a force gauge suitable to measure that low, so I'm guessing I'm in the 3-4 lb range now. (It's just that it was really nice at something less) With a trigger that won't fall due to external force.

LT

i agree with vapo and ramrod... imho, unsafe..

quote:

Originally posted by low_tech:
fair enough, and I did adjust it back towards the safer side, regardless of how hard I bounce it off the floor with the safety off, it will not drop the hammer.
I don't have a force gauge suitable to measure that low, so I'm guessing I'm in the 3-4 lb range now. (It's just that it was really nice at something less) With a trigger that won't fall due to external force.

LT

You really should be able to safely achieve a 2.5 lb trigger pull on a M-70....or dern close to it....if you can't then it's possible that someone has dinked with the mechanism and rounded the edges with a stone or emery or similar.

quote:

You really should be able to safely achieve a 2.5 lb trigger pull on a M-70....or dern close to it

Per "my scale" I've never gotten that low. But I've never had trouble getting to 3-3.25# hey that is the range I prefer anyway. I had set my wife Daly to a clean 4# when she shoots mine she complains about it being to light.

I will take a little weight vs creep anyday if needed for safety.

When you adjusted the trigger to the point you liked it, did you still have spring tension on the return spring, or was it not in tension at all?
I have not been able to get one of my Model 70 to less than close to a 4 lb pull, using a Lyman trigger gage to measure. Less than that and the firing pin would fall when I dropped the butt on the floor.
That is not safe in my opinion, so I put a little weight back on mine. Otherwise, the only thing holding the pin when the gun is off safety is the sear friction. That is not a good idea for me at least.
I have found the answer to any of my trigger problems, and you spell it Jewell......pg

Interesting topic for me. These aftermarket triggers that can be adjusted down to a few ounces, can they safely be thumped onto the ground?
A Smith got my M70 at about 2.5 lbs (I only have a spring scale to measure it). I can't remember if I bounced it off the cement floor,
I mean, just how hard does one go at it.

For me safety is relitive, I'm never going to be 100% safe in bed, driving, or shooting.

So just where am I going to be ready to shoot, safety off etc. and then bang the but hard on the ground. I suppose it could happen but by then my finger would be on the trigger, and I might also get hit with some space junk.

And I'm not even going to mention THAT trigger that can go off as the safety goes off.

So if fast cycleing of the action, releasing the safety and some LIGHT taps on the ground don't set er off, well then we keep the thing pointed in a safe direction don't we?

JAL
that is really the place I'm at mentally, but it is in conflict with the years of safety training I have, hammer NEVER falls unless you pull the trigger.
Vapodog
I'm the only one who has dinked with this assembly, and it's my first one. But I understand the physics involved, and if any surfaces get rounded off, it's because I screwed up.
Piongear
to be honest, I don't remember, this was done some time ago, and I had it out of the safe the other day and got to thinking about it.

LT

If you need a safe 2.5lb trigger pull on your Model 70. Send it to Mark Penrod for a complete trigger job. He has done 5 of my Model 70's.
He will re-surface the trigger & sear engament surface (at the correct angle), install new pins (that fit very good). You will have a nice crisp SAFE trigger pull at 2.5lb.

Penrod Precision
312 East Colledge Ave.
North Manchester, IN 46962-1141

260-982-8385

Just figure what will happen if the Worst Case situation happens. Then you can usually answer the question for yourself.

Generally speaking, if you happen to drop a firearm(from enough height), the heaviest portion will impact with the ground first. If there is enough room for the Barrel to turn Muzzle Down, it would then hit first. And set-up as you describe, it would blast into the ground.

A variation on this is if it happens to make contact with anything as it is headed downward, or begins rotation as the person loosing control of it imparts a slight spin. That would cause mid-air rotation and perhaps the Muzzle would be pointed directly at you as the Butt made Ground Zero Impact.

Additional Bad variations of this are if you are walking along and the sling slips off your shoulder. It might end up with the Muzzle Down, but probably not. In that situation, whoever happens to be aligned with the Bore can get Blasted - including yourself if you hunt alone.

Cross a fence and the firearm gets klutzed to the ground, and another Blast in which direction?

Trip on a root, rock, weed, or your other foot and perhaps the muzzle can end up under your chin or in your ear.

I prefer a nice light Trigger myself, except when the weather gets miserable cold, below 60deg or so. Then I add a bit of Weight to my Trigger Pulls. Sure don't want an Accidental Trigger Yank with cold fingers.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Just figure what will happen if the Worst Case situation happens. Then you can usually answer the question for yourself.

Generally speaking, if you happen to drop a firearm(from enough height), the heaviest portion will impact with the ground first. If there is enough room for the Barrel to turn Muzzle Down, it would then hit first. And set-up as you describe, it would blast into the ground.

A variation on this is if it happens to make contact with anything as it is headed downward, or begins rotation as the person loosing control of it imparts a slight spin. That would cause mid-air rotation and perhaps the Muzzle would be pointed directly at you as the Butt made Ground Zero Impact.

Additional Bad variations of this are if you are walking along and the sling slips off your shoulder. It might end up with the Muzzle Down, but probably not. In that situation, whoever happens to be aligned with the Bore can get Blasted - including yourself if you hunt alone.

Cross a fence and the firearm gets klutzed to the ground, and another Blast in which direction?

Trip on a root, rock, weed, or your other foot and perhaps the muzzle can end up under your chin or in your ear.

I prefer a nice light Trigger myself, except when the weather gets miserable cold, below 60deg or so. Then I add a bit of Weight to my Trigger Pulls. Sure don't want an Accidental Trigger Yank with cold fingers.

Best of luck to you.

This may very well be true but most of us do not take the safety off "safe" until we are about to or already have the weapon shouldered to shoot.

Under reasonable firearms handling, a gun should never discharge in an unsafe direction regardless of the mechanical condition of the safety.

Having said this, it's just not a good idea to have a firearm discharge with simply a "slight thump" to the butt. (An eight pound gun dropped on it's butt from 3" is about a 2 ft-lb hit)

Trigger design/geometry will greatly affect how low you can "safely" adjust a trigger. Heck I've seen people with the spring basically backed off.

MY BR rifle was set for around 6oz. Never tried to slam the butt. Only time there was ever a round in the chamber it was on the rest pointed down range.

Hunting rifle is far different. Besides just slaming the butt down like Hot Core posted there are plenty of other things that can make a light trigger go off before it was meant to. So I try and eliminate what I can control.

I've had one rifle go off(loaded round) without the trigger being pulled. It was 25-30 years ago. No one was hurt or even close to being hurt but I have not forgotten it. My rifle nor anyone I've trained to hunt will ever have a round in the chamber until it time to shoot. Shot option goes away the bullet comes out. Those rifles are still treated and handled as if they are loaded.

Bottomline it is your rifle, your decision. Some risks in life you can't control, some you can eliminate and some you can just minimize.

The last aftermarket trigger I installed specifically said to test by whacking the butt on the ground.That's always a good test for trigger and safety.

3 1/4 lbs. on a model 70 is a decent pull.After you put a couple hundred rounds through it,re adjust the trigger Pull.The trigger nose and sear will have seated themselves by then and you should be able to go down another 1/2 lb. safely.Never,ever depend on a safety.It is better to do what another gentleman wrote and not put a round in the Chamber untill ready to shoot.

Good thoughts,
I appreciate the reasoned responses....
there are times I will chamber a round while in a stand, or on a thick cover stalk, but the safety does not come off until the rifle is on the way to the shoulder for the shot.
Like I said earlier, even when it was very light, and on safe, the hammer would not fall even after a serious thumping...way more than a few foot fall.
By the way, thanks for the heads up on the lateral/vertical play in the bolt,I didn't smack the bolt to check, I will try that next time also.


LT out.

quote:

Originally posted by Displaced Texan:
If you need a safe 2.5lb trigger pull on your Model 70. Send it to Mark Penrod for a complete trigger job. He has done 5 of my Model 70's.
He will re-surface the trigger & sear engament surface (at the correct angle), install new pins (that fit very good). You will have a nice crisp SAFE trigger pull at 2.5lb.

Penrod Precision
312 East Colledge Ave.
North Manchester, IN 46962-1141

260-982-8385

How much is Mark charging for his trigger work?

The reason I ask is the fact that very shortly we'll have a fix for your trigger problems on the model 70 at what I believe is a very reasonable cost.

The problems I have with all factory and aftermarket triggers for the model 70 is simply they fall into one of two categories:
One, they're heavy, with excessive creep, but very reliable in harsh conditions, or two; they are very crisp and allow low weights, but have too many small working parts to be considered dead-nuts dependable in serious hunting conditions.

If you could get a reliable model 70 designed trigger that allowed trigger pulls down to 2lbs or even less on some guns I'd say that would fit the bill for most folks, wouldn't you guys?

quote:

If you could get a reliable model 70 designed trigger that allowed trigger pulls down to 2lbs or even less on some guns I'd say that would fit the bill for most folks, wouldn't you guys?

Yes, but please get the new bottom metal out first I'm ready for it.

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:

quote:

If you could get a reliable model 70 designed trigger that allowed trigger pulls down to 2lbs or even less on some guns I'd say that would fit the bill for most folks, wouldn't you guys?

Yes, but please get the new bottom metal out first I'm ready for it.

We have the Model 70 long-action and Pre-64 shipping currently.

The pre-64 started shipping last week and we've been moving the long-actions for a little over 3 weeks.

The short-actions are next on the list, but we're playing catch up with our Remington customers.

I'll start a new thread and snap some pictures so you can see what we've got.

Thanks, I'll order a pre-64 right now

The Model 70 trigger will fire when it is set too light and when the the butt hits the ground for one reason; it pivots at the top of the trigger lever. All of the weight of the trigger lever is below the pivot so the weight of the finger lever will allow the rifle to discharge. A lighter trigger lever reduces the tendency.
On another forum I posted some important safety tips for those M70 owners for whom this is a concern. You may decide which is serious and which is said in jest.
1. Set the trigger to a minimum of 3 pounds.
2. When throwing the rifle into the back of your pickup, with the safety off, don't throw it butt first.
3. When you are standing around bouncing the butt of your model 70 on the ground, don't look down the muzzle.
Seriously guys, the fact that the M70 trigger can realease when bounced on the ground is an idiosycracy of the design. It may or may not limit the weight to which you set the trigger. Sako triggers, because of the angles employed in the design, don't tend to fire when bounced on the ground but will fire if the cocking piece is rapped with a piece of wood. I once wnet down the rack in the store and tried 9 Sakos. All would fire if I rapped the cocking piece with a hammer handle. This at the factory setting. Since few guys stand around beating up their Sakos with a hammer handle, it's probably not a major concern.
I have one M70 "F" class rifle which is set at 14 oz. I can slam the bolt 'til the cows come home (this is quite some time since I have no cows) and the striker will not follow down. I can put the safety on and off and open and close the bolt. It doesn't fire. It will fire if I bounce the butt on the floor. Try as I might though, I can think of no situation where it is likely I will be standing and bouncing my loaded prone rifle on the ground. Therefor, I consider it to be perfectly safe. To others, the fact that it can fire when dropped on it's butt is an issue of major proportions. Take your pick. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
...This may very well be true but most of us do not take the safety off "safe" until we are about to or already have the weapon shouldered to shoot....

Completely agree.

In fact, when I posted, I really thought he had said the Safety was "ON". Thanks to your post, I went back and reread his initial post and he did say it was "OFF". Thanks VapoDog.

Hey Low_tech, With the Safety "OFF", my original post is Full-of-Beans. But, it is never a good idea to rely on a SAFETY actually working. I use mine, but trust it as much as I do a democrat saying he will reduce TAXES.

It is still possible to get the rifle to survive a bounce at a relatively light weight, with the SAFETY OFF, but not everyone can do it - in the beginning. Some Most trigger assemblies I've delt with eventually need to be taken apart and Fine Tuned. This takes a bit of experience, but you can't get that experience if you don't try.

Doesn't hurt a thing to go in and adjust it as much as you want, it can always be re-set. And even if parts get hosed-up, there are replacements available.

With the Safety OFF, I'd rather have a Trigger Release (that I can't feel creeping along) at 4# on a Hunting rifle than a Trigger that measures in the ounces. Most of mine are around 2.5# right now, but go up as the weather cools.

Darn shame about the confusion on my part, I misread your original post.

Thanks again VapoDog for pointing my reading error out.

HotCore, no problem,
reminds of a time I was pheasant hunting with a guy I kind of knew...we were crossing a fence and he handed me his gun, I reflexively checked his safety, found it to be off, and put it on safe, and handed it back. 5 minutes later a bird jumped in front of him and.....nothing.....he didn't fire. cause he didn't try to take the safety off.
I never understood people who walked around with the safety off.

LT

quote:

Originally posted by low_tech:
I never understood people who walked around with the safety off.

LT

I wouldn't hunt with anyone who walked around with the safety off!!!!

I should have mentioned that was the one and only time I was afield with that particular fellow.
It's too easy to have safe gun manners not to.