Are there Remington Lemons?

In discussions with the local gun stores they claimed that the cheap Model 710 had been taken off the market. However, Remington�s website is still promoting it. They haven�t sold any and one store wouldn�t order any.

http://www.remington.com/magazine/preview/rc009004.asp

They also said they had not sold ANY EtronX rifles and had not heard of anyone hunting with them. But they did hear that there were some benchrest shooters using the EtronX. Remington claims excellent accuracy. The EtronX seems to be available in only 3 - .22 calibers. The stores haven�t ordered any EtronX.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/700etronx.htm

These two models seem to be dead in these parts�

Does anyone have current news about these two rifles?

Bill Tibbe

Take your antics back to benchrest.com. I saw you posted this identical question there. Not happy unless you're stirring it up huh?

I thought you were gone. Can't say I've missed you.

William E. Tibbes

After your dishonorable and deplorable behavior and continuing refusal to address the issues you caused on the Second Amendment, Legal and Political Issues/ More Trouble in Zim thread-

http://www.huntamerica.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB19&Number=221209&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1&vc=1

I'm surprised you would post again on this or any other forum.

You are a poor excuse for a man.

This will be appended to every post I find you've made until I get a very public apology. You also need your ass kicked.

Jack,

Thank you for the link. I haven't laughed that hard in a long while!

Hmmmm, seems I've been missing something.

Since my primary focus is on bowhunting, I'm not surprized. I've seen Mr Tibbe's posts around from time to time and seem to recall him stuck in a hole before and blaming his son(s). hmmmm.

Guess as I have time I'll search out Mr Tibbe's scribblings and form an opinion.

I have read JBelk's posts for some time and have built a good deal of respect for him. To read a post like above from Jack makes me think Mr Tibbe has tried or is trying to pull the wooly booboo.

tsk, tsk, going to be tough staying on the boards with a pack of running junkyard dogs on your heels.

William E Tibbe, impressive sounding name.

I had a friend that makes excellent first impressions also. Once you get to know him though, you find out he is a crackhead.

Hmmmm.

You guys need to cut Tibbe a little slack here. He's just your typical Jackson hole transplant buttfuck.

Wow, that Tibie guy is a long winded dude.

Jackson Hole?
Must be some kind of ski Xpert.

If he thinks Africa is bad,try walking around Oakland CA at night.Or DC for that matter.

Get a life Billy boy.

Last call to serious people with an I.Q. higher than a golf score.

Does anyone have any first hand experience or knowledge about the Remington EtronX? That's an electrical ignition system in lieu of a conventional primer.

I posted on three other forums and did not receive even one informed answer. Apparently noone knows anything about the EtronX even though it has been on the market for some time. Remington is claiming some degree of accuracy. The interest is in determining if there is really some advantage for $1919.00.

There were about three responses about the Model 710. Some dealer had sold a few and the buyers apparently did kill some animals. The question there is - who would actually buy and keep such an inexpensive item and for what rational purpose?

Thanks, in advance, for any intelligent input.

Bill Tibbe

WET, you have to understand a few things...

Since Saeed prefers the hands-off approach to managing this board, and the moderators are moderators in name only, the members are given the job of policeing the boards.

Some members, such as myself, ignore persons such as yourself, Todd E., Buell, or Russell E. Taylor. This insures that I am controling the type of people I "associate" with, and with luck, your ilk will get bored and go away.

Other members police the site by calling you a sorry son-of-a-bitch, or some such, in an attempt to drive you away.

Either way, TAKE A HINT, YOU'RE NOT WELCOME HERE!

Now, you have a good day, Joe.

JMac-

What have I ever done to you? Or anyone that you won't ascociate with me?

Buell

JMAC:

I have no idea at all who you are. I can't recall ever hearing from or about you. However, for the record, a couple of years ago, or more, I was a moderator on this forum. I was invited by Saeed and agreed.

Hunt America was then infested with all sorts of loonies and there were many problems and complaints there so it was without remorse that I agreed to come here and assist Saeed. I think I was one of the first two or three moderators.

Back then the format was quite different. There was only one long thread and any subject could be posted at any time. Frequently the posting would degenerate into an insulting, name calling melee which Saeed frequently has to become involved in. At times Saeed became so exasperated that he wanted to knock heads. He was certainly capable of making his own decisions then and I believe he still is. Then the format was changed a couple of times. When Saeed first began this forum he wasn't certain that he would have a dozen people participating. When I started we counted about 600 members. We rapidly zoomed right past Hunt America and within a year we had ascended to over 6,000 members.

I was , and am, operating a private business. I have time constraints and other things to do. When I agreed to help Saeed I never intended to remain in perpetuity. After a couple of years it became evident that there were some very unsavory characters who thought moderators were punching bags. Unfortunately the moderators were restrained from defending themselves or engaging in retaliatory "strikes".

Last year I had some travelling to do and I asked some other people to "help out". Saeed was satisfied with me as well as some of my surrogated until Ray Atkinson, typically, rekindled old feuds, began stepping on people and throwing his weight around. He tangled with someone who doesn't take XXXX from anyone.

Upon Saeed's return from Safari he asked that the surrogates post on their own computers under their own names.

I personally have NEVER been banned from this forum. I have friendly E-mail from Saeed which DOES NOT in any way insinuate that I pesonally am not welcome. In fact he has said that I am welcome to post any time. My personal relations with Saeed are quite amicable and he persists in signing each E-mail with the clause "my friend". That means he considers me a friend. And I agree.

It is, therefore, with trepidation and great embarrasment that I read your comments. I'm assuming that you are an American. Probably many of the other respondents to this post are also. I lived in Arab and Muslim countries and know that they can be very hospitable and gracious hosts. Therefore, your supercilious and highly repugnant comments are an insult to me personally, to Saeed, by insinuating that he is a negligent administrastor who isn't taking care of his site, to ALL of the other moderators insinuating that they are esentially worthless mannequins and additionally to Buell and Russell E. Taylor.

Essentially you are shouldering Saeed aside - in his own house - and attempting to speak for him on his behalf and eject his invited guests. I repeat. I was invited by Saeed, not you. YOU MUST BE DRUNK!

Talk about ugly Americans! I am really mortified that some of my fellow Americans can act in such an uneducated, uncouth, moronic manner. I am tremendously embarrased for my country that you dropped your skivvies and showed your face! It isn't any wonder that foreigners hate Americans. Even I hate some of them!

So far as Atkinson is concerned he is a fake, phoney, fraud, con artist, charlatan, 5% fact and 95% fiction. He started up a booking business to have something to do in retirement. It hasn't been operating all that long. Serious booking agents should have a minimum of 15 years experience to be considred at all. Some of his claims are so preposterous that only the village idiot would believe them. Yet he is a charmer. He has a following that he has hoodwinked.

The difference between Accurate Reloading and Hunt America is that Hunt America is a commercial enterprise. They take money, they ask for money they beg money. Their advertisers pay a fee. In return the moderators typically circle the wagons and put up a protective shield. Forum member posters are essentually held hostage. If they dare say anything derogatory the moderators harass, intimidate and threaten them. However, the paying advertisers have a free reign to insult, defile, curse, embarras the member posters. It is absolutely a double standard enterprise of unequal treatment. This has resulted in many disillusioned members, many who have quit the site, many complaints. Hunt Americas membership has changed from being far superior to Accurate Reloading's in the old days to dropping to half as many. The posting activity is only 1/4th of Accurate Reloading's.

So far as Jack Belk is concerned, he is a run down, poor boy loser, beggar gunsmith, starved for attention, who lives close to Atkinson and is a "buddy". Belk is anothe "Bum" with a hand out taking money from the membership for medical payments because he isn't capable of making a living on his own. Birds of a feather hang together. When Atkinson rekindled an old feud, Belk butted in uninvited. It was bad enough that he rabble roused on Hunt America but now he has exported this absolutely disgraceful repulsive garbage onto Saeeds site. Essentially he has defecated on Saeeds rug and vomited in his punch bowl. Again I am mortified that my fellow Americans are so insensitive and oblivious. These uncouth hicks are Bulls in a China Shop.

For my part in more than a year I haven't posted more than three posts on this site. They were innocuous and non-inflamatory. Two were legitimate questions for which I sought answers and one was my honest opinion in response to a question posed by a member. One question was politely answered by a moderator ( Don G ) and the other question was an appaling series of idiotic insults.

I frankly do not understand what prompted you to assume the role you did nor where you thought you obtained the authority to try to enforce your will on me. I can't recall ever tangling with you. I don't see any objectionable posts that I have personally made. But I can tell you that I categorically reject your comments and I will continue to post here any time I feel like it.

So far as your answer to my question about Remington EtronX, it was absolutely worthless as were all of the others. It is a waste of time to expect you and them to be able to answer since you so obviously are not capable.

Bill Tibbe

geez Tibbe, can we get your life story next. We all are so bored we need half a page of drivel. Just think, anyone who ran out of toilet paper could print it, read it and use it.

Oh and back to what Jack said. Yes you are a pile of shit after reading your stunt regarding Ray. Atleast Ray and Jack show up and help out unlike yourself. All you showup to do is stir shit, may i suggest you buy a pig farm and enternally stir.

Bill - You have removed all doubt that you are a true POS. Your actions around AR & HA are defenseless. Get a clue, learn how to tell the truth, and grab a little class and integrity.

[ 07-30-2002, 17:24: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Canuck, your point was well said. I know you guys put in alot of time and effort on this board. The great thing about this forum is the freedom to say what ever you want to. I dont care about the pissing contest between Ray and this Tibbe guy. That is between them. But then again he seems to have pissed off a whole lot of other people also. Not only here but on the other boards that Ive gone back and searched. Some people arent happy unless they are causing trouble. Even if I dont like what this guys says or stands for, I do support his right to say it. I would suggest that it be done privately however. I cant imagine why anyone would want to make such a thing public except to cause trouble.
Anyway thanks for the work you do. Not bad for such an "anal " dude.

Here we go again

Buell and Bill Tibbe start shooting off their keyboards again and the pissing contests start up again. If you answer these clowns you give them all the power. Buell and Bill Tibbe have got some folks trained just like Pavlov's dogs. If we do not respond at all they will have no choice but to go someplace else to play.

Think about it Gentlemen.

ZM

I really have no clue as to what Tibbe has said in the past. I have only remembered his name from the rare occasions I saw it, and the link someone provided above. I may be naive in this but all the posts I have read from Tibbe and well manored compared to the majority of the posters. Maybe what he writes is hitting people in a sore spot? Words are words, but when I myself have people like Atkinson who are vowing to track me down, and people egging him on to do so, is that not stirring the pot? Is Atkinson going to show up on MY doorstep with Belk and beat the shit out of me? I hope for their sakes that they do realize this is a hunting site and the majority of people on here are armed, and they had better know just who they are going to go hunt down.

I cannot stand these people that like to go around here threatening people with physical violence.

As far as Saeeds wants for this site, I was rather enlightened by an email correspondance I had with him today, and his policy as he told me was that he will not delete any thread on this site, and if you have a problem with someone deal with them. That is pretty much member policing is it not? Not in the sense of moderators/members deleting posts like on HA.com, but deal with your problems.

Tibbe is right in that there are many people here who I feel are being quite rude to Saeed. This is not some site for the sheep to go around telling people to leave, ect... I have just as much right to be here, and I always will until Saeed says otherwise. Simple enough.

I think Tibbe has laid out some ideas about Atkinson that deserve some thought. For instance, on the other site, HA.com, under the link that was provided above, Belk admits that atkinsons first safari was atleast four years ago, but being a self admitted friend of atleast 12 years would give some light into the possibilty of someone going to Africa previous to that, no? There has been no one who can verify the claims laid down by Atkinson. Ray is a career DEA man, a job I would think to be rather a hinderance to gaining as much knowledge as has been touted. I am not saying anything, but giving another angle. I have no information other then what has been said today about wether Atkinson is the man he says he is.

I came to this site to learn as much as I could. It is wrong of the sheep on here to assume I am only here to cause problems. I do not think I have caused any more problems on this site then Atkinson has. Its just that the sheep follow him so I am out of the mainstream. No one will ever say anything about when Atkinson f- up in his arguements, but the sheep will be all over other people such as myself at the slightest move of myself. That is not right and is not subjective to the intention of this site. Atkinson and his flock have scared more people away from this site then I could imagine. There are plenty of people on here who know a great deal more then Atkinson, but due to the fact they do not post on every thread they can, Atkinson has developed a sort of cult following that has made him nearly impervious to any allegations or questioning. I know of several instances where he has been proven wrong, and yet he is still touted by the sheep as a Zeus like figure.

"bah, bah, bah...."

I remember the posts from "William E. Tibbe" before the "traveling days" and they are quite different from these I read now. Whoever was posting as "William E. Tibbe" was a gentleman, not a name-caller.

These posts simply have an immature air about them. I cannot belive they are the same individual.

When idiots are ignored, they soon go away.

Tibbe,

I sincerely hope your posts are being made by someone else but until that is proven I can only assume it really is you.

Jack is my friend and as far as your comments about him, you have shit in your lunch bucket.

I consider Ray a good guy also. Your lunch bucket has turned into a #3 washtub and I'll enjoy watching you chow down.

Someone once posted that I was a sharp cookie. We'll all see how well you can handle chewing the edges because time permitting I intend to see you get your just desserts on the boards I frequent.

Be careful with all the high and mighty words because when you get em twisted up enough, I'll be there to cut you down.

You have the entire English language at your disposal. Use it well. I will.

Canuck,

I read JMAC's post to mean is that it is down to the individual to maintain their own standards which reflect their own character rather than conventional and sometimes heavy handed "policing". You refer to "free speech" while I interpreted JMAC' s post as talking about, and accepting, the personel responsibilities that an honerable man associates with free speech to avoid abusing the system...sort of being a good "cyber guest" in Saeeds "virtual home" if you will....

I too left Huntamerica at the time of the troubles there, but I have never seen anything on that scale here. As far as I know Saeed has always maintained a hands off apoproach and it would surprise and dissappoint me to learn that he felt he needed to intervin in someway, almost that we as guests had abused his good nature and let him down.

Regards,

Peter

[ 07-30-2002, 16:19: Message edited by: Pete E ]

You have hit the nail on the head Pete.
I would add that of late there has been a tendency to use the Gun Control and Politics Forum as a sort of Hard Core Chat Anything Goes area, where people make a point of using the most offensive language but the same people will be polite when they post on the Hunting Forums for example. Shame. I think it puts people off having a political debate like adults.

I do not think I have ever seen Saeed use offensive language, and while I myself may have occasionally let slip I aspire to use civilised language while a guest in his “cyber house”. The Politics forum is no different.

After Atkinson threatened to hunt me down I emailed Saeed about it.

Flat out he told me if I have a problem with Atkinson I deal with it.

So I think if there are people threatening to hunt other people down on here and cause them physical harm, cussing each other out is childsplay...

I am not condeming or condoning anything... Just what was presented before me, personally...

I did apologize to Saeed about partially causing some recent battles...

Delectably,

Buell

Hey'
It is for this very reason,that I elected not to have forums on my site.
some we we lose the purpose of forums.That is to pass on helpfull information.I am glad that quite a lot of you,do help others with your posts.I just wish there was less acromony.
1geejay
www.shooting-hunting.com

Buell, in life some people do need a good kick in the butt to understand things. If some of the people on these forums act like this is real life, i would suspect they would get their butt kicked. I know for a fact i would not put up with some of the crap here if it was face to face.

And as far as Saeed, its not his problem someone is being an idiot. And on the free speech stuff, thats for you in your own home. You are on someone elses server being abusive and you have absolutely no free speech rights. Free speech rights are another noble way to protect your ass when your mouth over extends itself. They rank right up there with false descrimination claims and all that other crap. Go yell fire in a movie theatre and tell me about free speech rights while you are being arraigned in court. Or tell someone you are going to kill them.. see you in court again. Bottom line: You can blubber free speech all you want, but it does not apply when you are using someone elses resources.

Whats the next debate? global ecomony? hopefully something usefull.

FWIW i consider anyone who resorts to profanity in any situation as a Total loser intellectualy. When a person can't defend his or her beliefs in a logical and compelling fashion, THEY HAVE LOST. Sorry to offend others here, but you know this is true! I frankly find the swearing and cursing amusing and write off the intellect of the person at that time. If you can't agrue based on fact your a fool and don't believe for a milli-second it's not obvious.-Rob

I have never said we have our first ammendment rights on this site. This is an international site for heavens sake.

I dont even care about that for this site.

Robgun-

Your loss... Not to me personally, but I could probably prove, if I wanted to, that the vast majority of people on this site have cussed on this site before, and therefore I don't understand what you are doing on here if you discredit people because of a few cusswords. You must have very few people who are still considered intellectual on your standards?

I will remember to look at your posts in the future in scrutiny, and if I catch you with a cussword, I will call you on it.

Thanks,

Buell

Firstly, Saeed can delete or edit, but chooses not to. Think about that. It is his choice. Nothing is perfect. Saeed uses a 375/404, but a 375 H&H has to be easier.

Secondly, if you post like Buell does and Atkinson is copping it, then many of the normally weak kneed people come out all agressive because they feel they have everyone behind them.

I have had some with Ray in the past and same as now, all the normally weak kneed people get excited as they feel they now have a go.

If you post up, as I have done on both this site and HA a topic like Is Osama Bin Laden a Hero? then you really draw in some character changes.

However, at the end of the day, it is the "hot" threads that get all the traffic.

Mike

Buell- You can review my posts, forever, and you won't ever document me cursing. Sorry, Bro but that isn't my style. I will tell you that I think your wrong ( FWIW I don't even care), but I won't resort to using offensive language. I respect clear consise and logical proper english sentences to demonstrate my facts. People who use profanity particularily on websites where there is a"how shall we say a certain immunity" from a good spanking don't impress me at all. Frankly,I know how to curse in 10 different languages, but I don't do it because it think it demonstrates the lack of intelligence of the person doing the cursing. Sorry if this offends you. Finally, give this guy a break he at least can spell.-Rob

[ 07-31-2002, 09:20: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Rob,

In my business I deal with a range of people, although the largest section is the medial specialist.

Now this is what I find. In the middle of the education area, such as lawyer etc. people go out of their way in how they write and speak to support their position.

However, at the top of the education pile, which is the medial specialist, it all gets very basic. Now some of that is a case of them being inverted snobs.

But in general I do find the number of "fucks" dramatically increase once the big education level is reached.

As I said, there is some inverted snobbery there which is also seen in their letters. A bit of "I am only a cardiothoracic surgeon etc."

Mike

Tibbe

Are you insulting my golf score!

RR

Holmes:

I did want to acknowledge your reply and thank you for the input. I am interested in the Remington EtronX which may be ahead of it's time in technology. As the gunstore clerk pointed out, suppose Remington discontinues the EtonX. Then what do you do for primers. It is a single source procurement and so fas as anyone knows isn't reloadable.

Canuk:

You have my sincerest sympathies, brother. As a moderator, you know full well that it is a thankless job to say the least. 24 Hour campfire is a website up and running, owned by Rick Bin. He won't have moderators. Still not too much activity comparatively but so far it is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY devoid of the types of contentious arguments that are seen on other sites. Not too long ago another site went out of business and the above mentioned picked up many of it's members. Ken Howell has a special section called " Ask Ken Howell ". As you may know Ken is the designer of hundreds of cartridges and has written a book about them.

So far as policy on this site is concerned, whenever anyone logs on here the HOME PAGE is displayed and this message is displayed:

" This site was started by a group of shooters, whose interests include hunting, target shooting and plain plinking. The idea was to share what we have learned from hunting, reloading, gunsmithing and any other shooting related ideas. We are not affiliated to any company involved in the shooting and hunting sports. So what you will find here are our actual experiences, good or bad. If you have any interesting ideas, or if you have come across anything you think might be of interest to other fellow shooters, please consider sharing it with us, we would love to hear from you ".

I posted a gun question and out of 35 replied only one single answer actually addressed the gun issue.

Buell:

I find it ominous that you were threatened and intimidated. Actually I also received the same kind of personal personal threat that you did. And there was a lot of fishing around to try to get me to disclose my location.

Coincidentally my computer protective softwares alerted me three times that someone was trying illegally to break into my computer during that same time frame.

Bill Tibbe

Tibbe-

I think there are more people on this site who are only interested in filling a couple hours of their time each day. I don't think most people are capable of taking an internet chat site seriously from the begining.

I think if you really wanted to in your situation that you could indeed request a restraining order against Atkinson and JBelk. Wether or not you feel that is needed is up to you. But just something to think about if things get much hairer for you. There is plenty of evidence on this and other sites for that purpose.

I dont know exactly what went on between you and some people but I would be intrigued to hear about it. Email me if you wish.

As it turns out in Atkinson's and my debate he thought I was you under a different name, but he now knows I am not, and so the threat was actually directed at you more then me, even though you had nothing to do with those threads.

Buell

I don't want to get involved in all of this bickering, but make a comment on your question.

I don't think the concept of the etron x is ahead of it's time. I think it is something that did not need to be invented. I have handled these rifles and I am unable to tell the diference in lock time. Also, who wants a red light on the pistol grip of their gun and who wants to carry an extra batteries on a hunting trip in case your batteries die. I have enough to worry about on a hunting trip, with out this. Also, I have always wondered how it would hold up during wet weather. Water and circuit boards dont get along and a gun is not exactly somthing you can stuff under your jacket like a gps or laser rangefinder. Then there are those primers used to reload. I have never seen them for sale, but have heard they will be very expensive.

As far as the Remington 710, I think it Remingtons way to try to take some of the market from Savage. I am not a fan of Savage but I know the great accuracy these rifles are capable of. I don't think the 710 has a market and therefore won't last. The niche it is trying to fill has been filled by a good company for years.

FWIW,

Jim

I pretty much agree with Jim on this one. The Etron-X trigger group would seem to me only to be an advantage to a select group of benchresters (no slurs intended). It doesn't seem to have any advantage at all for hunters, and a lot of disadvantages already posted. As for the 710, well, they're inexpensive, and they say Remington on the side, so that might sell a few of them. For the once a year, don't want to spend much hunter, I can see where that would be attractive, but for a rifle fan, no way. Unless you collect Remingtons and want one to make the collection complete. FWIW - Dan