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Hello all: I have learned some interesting things on this site so far. Could someone please explain to me the differences/similarities between the following: 1. The Mauser 98 and the Model 70 2. How/why current makers (e.g. GMA and Hein) are producing them, or clones, and 3. What causes a person to prefer one over the other if the Model 70 is a Mauser pattern action, unless this is inaccurate and in that case we've rounded back to question 1! I greatly appreciate the learning. Jeff | ||
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I obtained my first of many M98 Mauser actions in 1950 the first of many and recieved my first Mdl70 action in 1953 again the first of many. I have come to the conclusion that the M98 was concieved by superior beings and was personally certified by the Lord himself. This I have learned from these forums. The Mdl70 on the otherhand was done by ignorant MIT enginneers and was cursed from the beginning. The Mdl98 has gotten better thru the ages though none of the ACTUAL M98's have been manufactured since the end of the second world war while the Mdl70 was nothing but junk and greatly deterioated in quality until it's demise a year or so ago. AS to why some prefer one to the other who knows as you get almost no reasonable explanation on either side. I wish you luck in your quest, but you would have greater expectations of success if your searched for the holy grail. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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Dear Zim, I was actually intested in hard data so I can improve my understanding (see Q.1) while you provided me with commentary/opinion (see Q.s2 & 3). Honestly, I'm interested responses that offer insight into the minds of other enthusiasts who know more than I rather than sarcastic remarks that don't particularly contribute to the thread's intended purpose. | |||
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I would say that zimbabwe probably knows more about both actions than he is letting on and by reading between the lines you might deduce that there is nothing wrong with either. I, for one, enjoyed his levity. For my serious take on your questions: Features of the M-70 that are actual improvements over the M-98 are a more solid bedding system and a better trigger - at least as far as accuracy goes - and a shorter firing pin fall - again for accuracy. The safety is "better" as far as mounting a scope goes. In the M-98's favor is it's stronger breaching system and gas protection for the shooter. It's Undercut extractor offers a more solid grip on the case. it's one piece magazine and trigger guard are a definate plus as well. One could argue that it's trigger and safety are more rugged than the M-70 - they probably are - but on a sporting rifle the M-70 trigger and safety have certainly proven to be enough. The long. strong firing pin fall of the M-98 is not as condusive to accuracy but certainly is more reliable. In a nut shell the M-70 is a better target rifle and the M-98 is more rugged and reliable. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Nice analysis, 458Win- flaco | |||
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Thanks for the help. Now, taking it to the level of actions like GMa and Hein it becomes a matter of preference for the most part? | |||
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When I went to gunsmith school in 1952 I carried with me a M98 byf action barreled to 257Roberts. The barrel was a Pfieffer. Most here have probably never heard of them. The first rifle I built in gunsmith school was a 220 Swift on a NEW FN action that cost a whole $60 ( and then that was a helluvalot of money) I have built many rifles in the ensuing years on both the M98 and M70 actions and really don't find a tinkers damn difference between them in REAL features. You pays your money and takes your choice. I might say I Have had 2 rifles built FOR me. One a 7x57 several years ago by Clayton Nelson a classmate and the one currently under construction a 275Roberts. The 7x57 is on a 1909 M98 and the 257 is on a Mdl70 Classic. BOTH have had the bolt handle altered with new straight handles and both are TOP grade rifles. I don't know which I like better if that answers your question any better. Thanks Phil for understanding what I was sayin. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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As a sporter, the M70 has a better: 1) scope mount 2) bolt shape 3) safety 4) magazine bottom [the 1909 Mauser is even better] 5) trigger 6) no thumb cut 7) long enough for 30-06 [3.34"] 8) extractor face chisel cut for push feed option 9) Sporter stock 10) sporter barrel They are the same with respect to: 1) flat bottom receiver 2) general extractor design 3) receiver has built in recoil lug The M98 is a little better with respect to: 1) third bolt lug in the back 2) gas containment [but M70 is still very good] All of the Mauser's problems can be fixed. With prices of Mauser 98s at $150 and pre 64 M70 starting at $600, the M70 may be cheaper if someone else is doing all the work. | |||
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M98 is more globally & impartially respected and recognised and has been for sometime. M70 reputation-image comes more from American culture marketing ideology. If your talking new manufac. m98 actions, much of whats listed by tnekkcc (1-10),are a non issue. Less bedding surface&thumb cut dont really seem to effect a well put together m98. This twiggy chicken leg barreled Argentine.270win whacks em into 1/2-1" groups quite regularly,pending how good the guy is on the day... and Who knows,with all the possible load combos,due to the variety of components avail,there could well be one that will do better,have not bothered to find out. This custom tubed Mcmillan pre64 7x57 does about the same as the mauser. So what can we deduce from that? The 3pos. safety I believe is way over hyped,but sure is fun to play with when viewing a rifle. Id be happy to have no safety at all. If Im after something, its bolt down and ready to put finger on trigger.If not, its bolt up. Nothing could be simpler. The real safety you count on is where your pointing the muzzle. If your talking older actions ie; less modern metalurgy,the pre64 has no advantage.Its hardening process can be quite dubious. If I wanted a 9.3x62 on a military m98 and was concerned about its strength for high end loads, I would simply chamber 9.3x64B and run her at 9.3x62 velocities. | |||
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From a custom gunmakers standpoint, I like them both. When I make a rifle fo myself, the system 98 wins hands down! The 98 allows far less case exposure then the M-70 (at the breech) The bigee is that the 98 has a litle tricky angle built into the extractor that matches a similar angle (20 degrees)in the bolt body that makes a stuck case become the victim of a chinese finger prison...the more gusto of upward pressure to the bolt knob, the more the extractor will "grab ahold" No misfires with a 98...the heavy firing pin and cockng piece see to that...don't "speed lock" a 98...all of advantage will be lost. As far as the "thumb cut"...this is a marvelous safety feature...any escaping gas from a ruptured case will be vented harmlessly to the L. side of the action...I personally feel that the "modern configuration" of a solid L. receiver wall is a step backward. The safty is a non issue...many after market conversions are available to make a three position safety. The solid L. side receiver wall of the M-70 makes darn sure that any escaping gas will end up in your eyeball. Having said all this, I do not hesitate shooting a well set up M-70 in any caliber that can be fired from the shoulder..case failures are almost non existent and if they occur can be laid at the feet of some brain dead reloader. | |||
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Thank you Duane. As to the choice of say a GMA or a Hein, is it simply a matter of preference? Do you have a preference? | |||
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Both are good, depends upon what you like. The bottom line is feel and cost. You can't go wrong with a custom rifle made out of either action. I personally like the feel of a pre war mod 70, a pre 64 slightly less. Notice no mention of a classic-uhh. A pre war is as slick as the skin of a baby's ass. Mausers are stout actions, have a wonderful mechanical feel to them, but it does feel clunky- well made but clunky. I've gotta call bullshit though on the gas handling.Gas handling is overrated, you'll get tattoed, no matter what the action. It's all nice in theory- bolt shrouds, cut receiver blah blah blah. But nothing is 100% gas proof, that is the bottom line, you'll get peppered. Regardless, if you buy an action because of gas handling characteristics, you're more brain dead than any brain dead reloader will ever be..... Some work is needed on either action though. Any good gunsmith will make you a beautiful rifle out of either action, one which can be argued as the ultimate rifle. Generally though it will cost you more to make a rifle from a mauser donor. Get the one you like. They are both fine actions. Truth be known, the slickest action I have is a custom 416 Rigby by Patrick Holehan on a Dakota action. Feeds as if you're screwing a well-lubed hooker.......... PS This response was made in Christchurch NZ, in about 3 hours I'm off Stag, Tahr, Fallow and Chamois hunting. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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FMC, Delicate as ever....  Hope you are having a good time over there. | |||
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In assessing the virtues/shortcomings of the M98 & M97, it helps to bear in mind that the Mauser was a military design while the Win 54/70 never was, save for a few pressed into sniper service. So a fairer comparison would be the prewar commercial M98 which was available with no thumb cut, a hinged floorplate, double set triggers, a side safety like a Sako and a smoothly contoured barrel. Bud W | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jsl3170: Thank you Duane. As to the choice of say a GMA or a Hein, is it simply a matter of preference? Do you have a preference?[/QUOTE I've used a few GMA action and a couple of the Noreen actions, which, I believe Hein is now producing...the only complaint I had on either was that originally, there was not enough clearance on the extractor side to allow the extractor to snap over a round loaded directly into the chamber....the newer GMA' seem to have enough, am awaiting two Hein actions...so we'll see. Hein is supposed to be tooling up for a 98 system, but I've not seen one yet...the examples I've seen are very nicely done | |||
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FMC....your expertise leaves me awe struck...thank you Duane | |||
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Duane, I personally think the lines on a full-blown 98 custom are way sexier than the 70. So for me, cost not being a factor, the 98 has more curb-appeal. Getting a model 98 to that point however, is going to cost you a lot more $ than a model 70. This comparison seems to pop up a few times a year and it always seems to boil down to the model 70 poorly handling gas for those all too frequent receiver explosions I keep reading about. Sooooo, why doesn't a gunsmith make a thumb cut in a model 70 action, build a shrouded bolt safety, and make a few more cuts in the bolt body to handle the gas better??? Someone has to have done this before but I've never seen one. | |||
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Prewar70, I believe the Waffen Hein guys have improved the Noreen M70 prety much following the recommendations you just outlined with the exception of the thumb cut. Now if they would just give us the Mauser breeching system with 'C' ring and properly tuned extractor/bevel we would have the best of both worlds in one action!  Best Regards, Dave | |||
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I have also read on other posts throughout this site that the Hein action comes ready to be barrelled while the GMA requires extensive work by a gunsmith. Can anyone verify this claim? What sort of "work" would an action that looks as fine and which enjoys a reputation as GMA does require? On that level, doesn't the Hein nose ahead? BTW, does anyone have a reliable report when Hein will make their 98 available and the will the price reflect their current prices? | |||
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Prewar 70. You make some real interesting points. Maybe Dakota is as close to a "perfect" M-70 as is available off the shelf. Barrrel is to be machined so that it is the configuration of a Mauser C ring, but, of course it's on the barrel, The bolt stop is an invention of Pete Grisel while he and Don Allen were developing the action. The stop effectively blocks that wide open L side path. By the way, Pete gave this a lot of thought because his father had been injured while shooting a M-70 | |||
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Duane- Not to lay it on too thick--I'd hate to embarrass you--but it's great to see you posting again. You bring the kind of experience and custom gun building accomplishment that this board sorely needs. flaco | |||
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J.K. Cloward put a gas flange on an M70 pre64 bolt sleeve for me. Not complicated. If memory serves there was an article in Am. Rifleman describing this job. | |||
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  Warrior | |||
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The US 1903 Springfield was our answer to the fine Mod98 Mauser and It was to close to the Mauser design; I think infringement law suits were filed with concern about these issues. FYI: The 700 Remington came from the 1917 Enfield. ie. 1917->30Express->30s->722->700rem. The Winchester M-54 came fron the 1903 and is more like a Mauser (Look at one) , the M-54 then became the Pre-War M-70 -> Post WII M-70 (Pre-64)->Post-64->Classic M-70 (USRA). Winchester looked at what the riflemakers were doing to make a better sporting arms and incorporated these changes ie. better safety,low bolt, drill & tap for top mount scope, bolt release, adjustable trigger etc. For examples (4 pictures 2 Mauser & 2 Pre-64 M-70s') Please see the BIJOUCREEK Post: http://forums.accuratereloadin...9411043/m/6531051031 If you would like the LONG version; Please contact me (Off Line) The part you can take home today is; "A M-70 is a Mauser" Michael Greene | |||
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That's kind of like saying a "chimpanzee" is a human......they do share ~98% of the same DNA. | |||
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Just for your consideration is a picture of an UNALTERED Winchester Mod 54. The forrunner of the Mod-70 Please note; #1, the Bolt Body shape. #2, the Safety & Bolt Sleeve. #3, the Reciever Tang shape. #4, the Extractor & Ring Looks like a Mauser to me. You can decide for yourself.  | |||
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The 03 was a mix of the 93 Mauser and the Krag. The 700 Remington has no relationship to the 1917 (were you thinking Mod 30?). All bolt actions with a staggered magazine owe somthing to the 93 Mauser. Good luck! | |||
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You might try looking under the hood. | |||
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I've decided to scratch riflebuilders.com from my list of potential gunmakers. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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I apologize for getting off topic. HOWEVER, The Winchester Co. based there Model 54 on the 1903 Springfield and so the M-70. See; Winchester's History That the Springfield was without question a Mauser clone was confirmed in a series of patent infringementpatent infringement n. the manufacture and/or use of an invention or improvement for which someone else owns a patent issued by the government, without obtaining permission of the owner of the patent by contract, license or waiver. ..... Click the link for more information. lawsuits filed by Mauser. Mauser won and the court ordered the US Government to pay damages. This is where popular myth takes over. The myth says the US Government lost the case, appealed, lost again, but war intervened and only a small amount of the judgment, approximately $250,000, was actually paid to Mauser. The balance of the huge award was never paid and the Great War provided the US Government an easy out. See ALSO: Battlefield tack driver: the model 1903 Springfield in WWI http://www.thefreelibrary.com/...d+in+WWI-a0150451303 | |||
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If you want potentially better accuracy then choose the M70 albeit NOT at subfreezing temps, the M70's shorter striker fall is sometimes problematical at low temps. The Mauser will be slightly more reliable although the Mauser receivers are often somewhat softer than optimum and therefore subject to bolt setback in certain instances. Regardless of certain opinions, the Mauser is certainly MUCH better at gas handling under catastrophic failure conditions. For a comparison, please see Ackley's Handbook. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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ForrestB Mike at riflebuilders.com would not have built you a rifle anyway even if you begged him, he doesnt just build rifles for anyone off the street. Mike builds some of the finest rifles out there and is stockmaking might be the best their is, his patterns are flawless, Every rifle he has built is either a mauser or Pre 64 win. He has been doing this since the day he was born and I dont know how long his dad was a gunsmith/stockmaker/gunbuilder but its in his blood. Mike has hand written letters from Jack Lott and I beleive they worked together. Mike is stateing facts with proof and maybe some opinion and you know what he meant, you know he didnt mean winchesters had a secret little mauser stamp hidden somewhere the chimp thing thats about right the winchester and mauser have about 1 chromozone differnce, but clearly a copy or clone and maybe some evolutionary characteristics, and adaptation due to enviroment. I also agree the Mauser has more sex appeal but the winchester is less work to get to where it needs to be for a rifle If your talking custom action then GMA hands down over a dakota or similar Keep an eye out for my double square bridge winchester M 70 shortly that might be as sexy as a mauser Your quest is to difficult Iam affraid it might never be completed even if you choose one or the other you will always wonder what if you used the other. I got it just build two, one of each action in 375, 458lott or 500j. then your next post will be which action for which caliber and this will start all over. | |||
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Riflebuilders.com (Mike) you were responding to the original posters question exactly how he wanted. with facts and some opinion not sarcastic comments like forrestb and mhc tx Its amazing! the original post should have been give me all the sarcastic comments and opinions with no facts for me to review to help me make my decision. now their were mostly good comments and good information that we all can learn from but there always has to be a few. the chimp one that was pretty good though | |||
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BIJOUCREEK, The chimp remark was mine and I will take full responsibility for it (glad you got a laugh). I do know that the following mauser actions really suck and you should avoid them at all costs......they would be: G33/40, Brno-21 and Brno ZG-47. If you locate one, give me a PM and I will see that is disposed of. Seriously, I do have a G33/40, 1909 Argentine and a pre-64 Winchester M-70 action(s) sitting in the safe......I guess I could pull them out and take some pictures. One interesting feature of the M-70 is, I can hold it and look down the left rail (with the bolt in battery) and see my feet (can't do that with a Mauser). There isn't anything on that left side to stop gases from a ruptured case from coming back in the shooter's face. The pre-64 uses a cone breach (results in less support for the case head) vs a C-ring for the Mauser. I have heard that Paul Mauser was pretty anal when it came to safety........pull the firing pin on a mauser and you will find that there are little shoulders on the firing pin that keeps it from firing if the firing pin body breaks when the bolt isn't in battery (the shoulders only line up when the bolt is closed/in battery). There are hugh holes in the Mauser bolt body that face down into the magazine when the bolt is closed....this directs gases down into the magazine and away from the shooters face in the event of a ruptured case. Everybody thinks that the only thing their rifle is supposed to do is feed, fire and extract. Everybody (or should I say "most" people) know that the Mauser design is the undisputed best at reliable feeding and extracting. What people don't talk about is that when one of those functions is disrupted, the Mauser is the best design to manage the disruption without injury to the shooter. Cheers! | |||
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#1 bolt body doesn't look too much like a Mauser........I see a bulge on the side instead of the M98 anti bind rib. #3 at least to my eye the tang looks quite different from a M98 and that is not addressing the different trigger, and breeching system. but that is just me. When comparing a M-70 to a M-98 to claim they are the same seems to make no sense. Now if you were comparing them to say a semi-auto then sure there would be way more similarities then differences. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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About the only REAL similarities between the Mauser and M70 are the turnbolt design itself, the controlled feed, the 3-position safety and the cock-on-opening feature. Almost everything else has been changed to some degree; a few changes were improvements, others were notable steps backward. The M70 is certainly adequately reliable and safe under most conditions and is considered a more-accurate platform for target shooting. The Mauser is far safer and more reliable but not nearly as streamlined. In my own mind I've simplified it similarly to choosing a 4x4 truck: Do I want to get where I'm going in the swamp with few problems(F-250 with winches and tires, 98 Mauser) or do I wanta look good to my girlie friends while cruising the boulevards & getting stuck on the way to the hunt(Z-71 or Ram with chrome wheels and no winch, M70 Winchester)? JMOFWIW. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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The readers who know me know I like to churn things up by making controversial, misleading statements to inspire debate and make friends think. I thought someone would “call me out” on this issue & challenge me with facts. FACT: In the 1800s’ Mauser filed for patents to define his new battle rifle actions. When you read a patent document the inventor lists the features which define his product as unique. “Bobster” almost got it perfect: 1.A turn bolt action, w/ 2 forward locking lugs 2. Non-split bridge receiver 3. Rotating bolt sleeve external to the rear bridge 4. Staggered internal box magazine 5. Rotating claw extractor The U.S. Government built a NEW battle rifle action the 1903 Springfield. The NEW rifle was found by the international court to have infringed on the patents held by Mauser so many ways that the court ruled that it was “virtually” a Mauser for the purpose of litigation and made a judgment against the U.S. Government. This is where the fun begins. (comment) The NEW rifle is NOT a Mauser but it owes some of its features to the Mauser designs. Now the Winchester 54 came from the 1903 Springfield and so does the M-70. And it is true you can see both the influence of the 1903 and the Mauser in both. Neither of these are Mausers Now this was all inspired by the sincere question; “WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MAUSER AND AN M-70” In my opinion that is not a good comparison. It is not valid to compare a 1800s’ Mauser with the 1903 Springfield. Changes were incorporated into the 1903 action for better or not. It is also not valid to compare a 1800s’ Mauser with the 1930s’ M-70 Winchester. The M-70 Winchester is NOT a battle rifle action but was developed for “sporting market” It would be better to compare a commercial 1950s’ FN “commercial” Mauser action to the 1930s’ Winchester M-70. You choose which you like. Just as it would not be fare to compare one of the really fine NEW Mauser actions from our friend Mr. Satterlee “tinman” (and some others) to the 1930s’ M-70. Perhaps it might be better to compare the NEW production Mauser with a New designed action like a Kimber center fire action or - - - You decide. A Winchester M-54 or M-70 is NOT a Mauser, nor a 1917 Enfield, a Weatherby, a Kimber, a Remington and on………! The take home part is: 1. Most all modern “turn bolt” actions owe some if not most of their existence to the 1800s’ Mauser Patents. The Mauser Patents actually have influenced almost every person on this earth. (Not always for the best.) Just think about that. 2. If you are building a sporting rifle & starting from scratch it is much easier to start with a “commercial” action then a battle rifle action. The best to you all. Michael Greene | |||
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You know, I had almost decided that you were a troll - and then you PMed me. Your PM's meaning was so obscure that I was undecided once more. And then I read your latest post above. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Forrest you got it right. This person is sharing log in credentials with a child. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Wait....Wait........I have it.....Why didn't I see it right off?????? Riflebuilder is Blue...........aka 22WRF............aka Kevin K.......aka who knows how many other user names. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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