My understanding is that Flitz is a very very mild abrasive...actual a polisher...will this harm anything if used for say 10 or so passes before a first firing.

I’ll throw a stupid question back at you. What do you expect 10 passes with Flitz to do for you on a clean, never fired barrel?

not fare...I am the dummy you are the semi-pro...no fair being mean...I take it you would like me bump it up to 20 passess...

I've used Flitz on a number of barrels. I believe the grit is 2500, I think JB is coarser. I'd have to say it probably won't hurt a thing. It never wrecked any of my barrels. Matter of fact, the smith's borescope couldn't tell the difference.

It sure as hell ain’t gonna hurt anything...nor will it DO anything either. Flitz has about the same abrasiveness as tooth paste.

I think a real good starting point would be to ask: What is it that I am trying to accomplish by swabbing my unfired, clean bore with something that amounts to bad tasting tooth paste.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
not fare...I am the dummy you are the semi-pro...no fair being mean...I take it you would like me bump it up to 20 passess...

mike,

If this is only number 3, I can’t wait to hear 4,5,6 and 7 !!

Rick,

I want to break in my new 308 bbl right...how would you suggest doing it...

bang, bang,bang, clean
repeat
repeat
repeat
repeat
etc...

Mike,
Some folks think fire lapping is not a bad way to achieve a poor man's barrel lapping. check out the article here.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/fire.html

!EDIT! If this 308 is the rifle you posted about here recently DON'T DO A THING!!! It's beautiful and new! See if it's shooting better than you, then mess with it.

My thoughts are if you're going to lap a barrel with any kind of abrasive or polishing compound regardless of grit, use a bore dia. lead slug covered with the compound. A jag tip with a patch covered with your polishing compound will not keep the rifling as sharp.

Yeti,

Thanks but I never bought into firing hot abrasive things down my barrel.

Brian,

So that would be a .303 lead slug

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Rick,

i want to break in my new 308 bbl right...how would you sugfest doing it...

Who made the barrel would be my first question. If its from one of the better shops then the bore has already been hand lapped to a mirror finish.

IMO, “bores†do not need to be broken in...throats do. The little tooling marks left by the chambering reamer are perpendicular to the bore and the rifling and will grab and hold copper until they are smoothed out.

Most custom makers suggest a fire one, clean one, for the first ten or fifteen rounds to make sure that no copper is building up in the throat area. Then shoot three or four five round groups and clean between each of them. After that clean as you normally would.

Allot of guys don’t break in their barrels at all, and even though I am a believer in it, I must confess that I have never really seen any hard and fast evidence that it makes any measurable difference...especially for a run of the mill factory barrel on a hunting rifle.

I use only Krieger, Shilen and Schneider custom barrels and each of those makers suggests breaking in their barrels pretty much as I described above...so I follow their advice since they made the damned things and ought to know what they’re talking about for their product.

Going through a bunch of extra cleaning/polishing procedures prior to ever firing the weapon has no value that I am aware of.

mike,

This is from Krieger’s web site and it explains things better than I ever could.

Q: What causes copper fouling in a barrel?
A: There are several factors: · The finish of the bore. · The roughness of the throat after chambering. Fouling can start back at the throat. (Please see our "Barrel Break-In and Cleaning" Instructions.) · Quality of the bullets. I.e. match bullets Vs military style ammo (fmj) or lower grade factory ammo. Good quality hunting bullets that have pure copper jackets to control expansion will tend to foul more. · Pressure. Our experience and some of the bullet manufactures' is that the higher the pressure, the more the bullets tend to foul the barrel.
When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this gas and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it; copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.

Krieger Break-in and cleaning recommendations:

BREAK-IN & CLEANING

With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.

Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this gas and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it; copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.

Barrels will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in because of things like slightly different machinability of the steel, or steel chemistry, or the condition of the chambering reamer, etc. . . For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is the same hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more "color" if you are using a chemical cleaner. (Chrome moly and stainless steel are different materials with some things in common and others different.) Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in -- sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the clearing procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while polishing out the throat.

Finally, the best way to break-in the barrel is to observe when the barrel is broken in; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of "shoot and clean" as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.

CLEANING

This section on cleaning is not intended to be a detailed instruction, but rather to point out a few "do's and don'ts". Instructions furnished with bore cleaners, equipment, etc. should be followed unless they would conflict with these "do's and don'ts."

You should use a good quality straight cleaning rod with a freely rotating handle and a rod guide that fits both your receiver raceway and the rod snugly. How straight and how snug? The object is to make sure the rod cannot touch the bore. With service rifle barrels a good rod and guide set-up is especially important as all the cleaning must be done from the muzzle and even slight damage to the barrel crown is extremely detrimental to accuracy.

There are two basic types of bore cleaners -- chemical and abrasive. The chemical cleaners are usually a blend of various ingredients including oils and ammonia that attack the copper. The abrasive cleaners generally contain no chemicals and are an oil, wax, or grease base with an extremely fine abrasive such as chalk, clay, or gypsum. They clean by mechanically removing the fouling. Both are good, and we feel that neither will damage the bore when used properly.

So what is the proper way to use them? First, not all chemical cleaners are compatible with each other. Some, when used together at a certain temperature, can cause severe pitting of the barrel -- even stainless steel barrels. It is fine to use two different cleaners as long as you completely remove the first cleaner from the barrel before cleaning with the second. And, of course, never mix them in the same bottle.

Follow instructions on the bottle as far as soak time, etc. . . Always clean from the breech whenever possible, pushing the patch or swab up to the muzzle and then back without completely exiting the muzzle. If you exit the muzzle, the rod is going to touch the bore and be dragged back in across the crown followed by the patch or brush. Try to avoid dragging things in and out of the muzzle. It will eventually cause uneven wear of the crown. Accuracy will suffer and this can lead you to believe the barrel is shot out, when in fact, it still may have a lot of serviceable life left. A barrel with a worn or damaged crown can be re-crowned and accuracy will usually return.

The chemical cleaners may be the best way to clean service rifle barrels that must be cleaned from the muzzle -- i.e. M1 Garand, M14, etc. . .-- because this method avoids all the scrubbing necessary with the abrasive cleaners and the danger of damaging the crown. But again, as long as the rod doesn't touch the crown, abrasive cleaners should be fine.

Abrasive cleaners work very well. They do not damage the bore, they clean all types of fouling (copper powder, lead, plastic), and they have the added advantage of polishing the throat both in "break in" and later on when the throat begins to roughen again from the rounds fired. One national champion we know polishes the throats on his rifles every several hundred rounds or so with diamond paste to extend their accuracy life.

Again, as with the chemical cleaners, a good rod and rod guide is necessary. A jag with a patch wrapped around it works well. Apply the cleaner and begin scrubbing in short, rather fast strokes of about two to four inches in length. Concentrate most of the strokes in the throat area decreasing the number as you go toward the muzzle. Make a few full-length passes while avoiding exiting the muzzle completely, but do partially exit for about six strokes. You can avoid accidentally exiting by mounting the rifle in a vise or holder of some sort and blocking the rod at the muzzle with the wall or something to keep it from completely exiting.

This sheet is intended to touch on the critical areas of break-in and cleaning and is not intended as a complete, step-by-step guide or recommendation of any product.

The following is a guide to "break-in" based on our experience. This is not a hard and fast rule, only a guide. Some barrel, chamber, bullet, primer, powder, pressure, velocity etc. combinations may require more cycles some less!

It is a good idea to just observe what the barrel is telling you with its fouling pattern. But once it is broken in, there is no need to continue breaking it in.

Initially you should perform the shoot-one-shot-and-clean cycle for five cycles. If fouling hasn't reduced, fire five more cycles and so on until fouling begins to drop off. At that point shoot three shots before cleaning and observe. If fouling is reduced, fire five shots before cleaning. It is interesting to shoot groups during the three and five shot cycles.

Stainless Chrome moly
5 one-shot cycles 5 - 25 - one-shot cycles
1 three-shot cycle 2 - three-shot cycles
1 five-shot cycle 1 - five-shot cycle

I can't tell you how much clearance you'll need for it to pass easily through the bore. I screwed a ball puller for my muzzleloader into an oversized slug, chucked the rod into a drill and turned it down slightly until it passed through the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by brianbo:
I can't tell you how much clearance you'll need for it to pass easily through the bore. I screwed a ball puller for my muzzleloader into an oversized slug, chucked the rod into a drill and turned it down slightly until it passed through the bore.

Are you doing all this to a brand new, never been fired barrel?

Oh hell no. This to an old barrel that fouled badly and I lapped it to salvage it. A decent new barrel shouldn't need it.

quote:

Originally posted by brianbo:
Oh hell no. This to an old barrel that fouled badly and I lapped it to salvage it. A decent new barrel shouldn't need it.

Mike was asking about breaking in a new barrel that hasn’t even been fired yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Rick,

I want to break in my new 308 bbl right...how would you suggest doing it...

Shoot it like you own it!

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Rick,

I want to break in my new 308 bbl right...how would you suggest doing it...

Shoot it like you own it!

Yup....darn right.....screw all that breakin stuff....just go out and shoot it.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Rick,

I want to break in my new 308 bbl right...how would you suggest doing it...

Shoot it like you own it!

Yup....darn right.....screw all that breakin stuff....just go out and shoot it.

My mistake should have said "shoot it like you stole it"

Rick,
I am aware that he has a new barrel. I just cautioned him about using a jag, patch and abrasive cleaner. I have heard of barrel mfg'rs who will void a warranty for doing so. I can understand being careful with a new barrel, but some take the practice way to far.

Yeah, I agree...screw the break in. After all what would John Krieger and the Shilens know about rifle barrels anyway!

Mike,
Clean the barrel really well BEFORE firing a shot.

then my break in is:

Fire one - clean
fire one - clean
fire one - clean

Fire 3 - clean
Fire 3 - clean
Fire 3 - clen

Fire 4 - clean
Fire 4 - clean

20 total

Done

never let the barrel get even warm through all of this. In a 308 should take an hour or so.

Aftre this then go the the range and shoot until you see groups open up. cut the number of shots in half and that is your cleaning interval.

Remember it will take 2 to 3 shots to foul the bore again to get it shooting to point of aim again after cleaning.

For a hunting gun all this is hardly necessary but I do think it rings the most out of every barrel.

BTW: avoid any abrasive unless you have a problem you are trying to fix and it's worth making it worse. Elbow grease and a good solvent cleaner is the best bet for keeping best accuracy for the longest. That and never shoot a barrel until its hot. My personal limit at the bench is until it feels as warm as a cup of hot coffee. Never so hot you have any trouble holding your hand on the barrel for an extended time.

All just my opnion and take it for what its worth to you.

BTW. Nice looking gun Mike. I see a Montana antelope in it's future

Johnny Mac

My break-in procedure on a new barrel is what is posted on Kreiger's website. However, I learned it from some paperwork I received from them before there was a web. I don't think it's excessive. I have been at the range next to guys who'll spend the entire day going through a break-in and for me that's taking in too far.

Mike, Best of luck with your new rifle. I didn't say screw the break-in. My recommendation about the lapping slug was for the use of abrasives. You shouldn't need them for a new barrel and probably never will as long as you use good cleaning techniques with the available chemical cleaners. fritz454 has probably given you the best advice regarding barrel temperature and not letting the barrel get too hot.

Okay Mike...#3 is about talked out time to m ove on the #4!

And if number 4 is “How do I get Flitz out of my bore†you are going to be placed on restriction.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Yeah, I agree...screw the break in. After all what would John Krieger and the Shilens know about rifle barrels anyway!

I won't argue break in procedures. Everybody has one along with their opinion. Mine just happens to be to take the rifle out and shoot it. Clean it with Hoppes #9 and a brass brush and swab with clean patches until dry when I am back to the house. I store my barrels dry (no oil) unless I don't plan on shooting it in the next six monthes. Which is unlikely.

This seems to work for me.

quote:

Thanks but I never bought into firing hot abrasive things down my barrel.

I don't what you've bought into, Mike. You've got a brand new premium Douglas barrel that you want to Flitz because....Why?

Turn off the computer, buy three different flavors of good ammo and let us know how this nice rifle shoots. Holy Moly.

My personal, copyrighted break in procedure for premium barrels is as follows:

Clean the barrel, very well. Flitz the throat (about 50 or so passes, or until I say "the heck with it").

Shoot 1
Shoot 1
Shoot 1
Shoot 1
Shoot 1

Repeat until all reloads are gone. Clean.

Reload brass and repeat. JMO, Dutch.

From Shilens site.....

"How should I break-in my new Shilen barrel?
Break-in procedures are as diverse as cleaning techniques. Shilen, Inc. introduced a break-in procedure mostly because customers seemed to think that we should have one. By and large, we don't think breaking-in a new barrel is a big deal................"

I'd tend to agree the break-in from barrel companys is as much a product of customer questions as opposed to actual necessity. Of course I could be wrong but I haven't noticed any difference either way. All those break in rounds are just that many more off the life of the barrel and I'd bet many do more harm than good with damage from their cleaning rod.

If you read the rest of that paragraph they don’t say it isn’t a good idea they just say isn’t a “big deal‘, and they didn’t have any detailed, specific procedure, so in response to their customers they now have a specific procedure they suggest for break in, but if yours varies it ain’t a “big deal“, and you ain’t gonna ruin your barrel if it is not followed to the tee.

As Krieger points out it isn’t the bore you are breaking in its the throat, and the throat is not cut or hand lapped by the barrel maker.

Gale McMillian's opinion as found here http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp

"Gale McMillan
Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 10:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in"

"Gale McMillan
Senior Member posted September 27, 1999 09:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at it this way, A barrel starts out with nice sharp areas of the corners of the rifling . Along the way you build a big fire in it a few thousand times and it burns the corners off. Now take a barrel that to break in you put an abrasive on a patch and run it in and out. The result is that you take the corners off the rifling so that all that fire which would have started with sharp rifling is now starting with rifling that is thousands of rounds old. Which means that a lot of the life is gone. A lap always cuts more on each end where the compound reverses direction as it starts back through the barrel which means that it is enlarging the bore at each ends of the barrel. And last picture a patch riding along the barrel with abrasive on it. It is removing material at a given rate. It comes to a place where there is copper fouling and it rides over it cutting the same amount that it was cutting before it came to the copper. You continue until all the fouling is gone and what have you done? You have put the came contour in the barrel steel that was in it when it was metal fouled. It would not be as bad if it were used on a lead lap but I ask why would you want to abuse the barrel when you can accomplish the same thing without the bad side effects. There is Sweats, Otters foul out or just a good daily cleaning with a good bore cleaner till the fouling is gone. To top this off I will relate a true happening. I built a bench rest rifle for a customer and as usual I fired 5 groups of 5 shots and calculated the aggregate. It was good enough to see that the rifle was capable of winning the Nationals so I shipped it. I got a call from the new owner saying how happy he was with it the way it shot. About 4 weeks later the rifle showed up with a note saying it wouldn't shoot. Sure enough when I tested it it was shooting groups three times the size if the ones I had shot before I shipped it. When I bore scoped it the barrel looked like a mirror and the rifling wasn't square it was half round. From that time on I put a flyer in each gun saying if any abrasive was use in it voided the Warrantee. Now I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want but just inform you what is happening when you use JB. Brass brushes are softer than barrel steel and does no harm. S/S brushes are harder than barrel steel is definetly a no no. Nylon may surprise you to know is very abrasive If you doubt this look at the carbide eye on yout fishing rod where nylon line has worn groves into it. "

I do find my barrels shoot better after some rounds have been down the tube and I don't doubt the throat may need to be broke in so to speak it's just that I haven't found doing a break in procedure gets me there any faster so I skip it. Of course it just may be it's more accurate with more rounds down the tube because I've found better loads as I reach that point. Who knows, just another one of those things that is hard to substantiate from either side of the debate. I've also used JB's on stubborn bores to the point they should be smooth bores if all the hype about JB's being damaging is true and have only had good results.

Mike,
Sinclair has a proceedure that it reccommends for new barrels breakins. I made a condenced version, I'll try to find where I hid it!

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
I do find my barrels shoot better after some rounds have been down the tube and I don't doubt the throat may need to be broke in so to speak it's just that I haven't found doing a break in procedure gets me there any faster so I skip it. Of course it just may be it's more accurate with more rounds down the tube because I've found better loads as I reach that point. Who knows, just another one of those things that is hard to substantiate from either side of the debate. I've also used JB's on stubborn bores to the point they should be smooth bores if all the hype about JB's being damaging is true and have only had good results.

About the only way to really damage a rifle bore is with a cleaning rod. Barrels don’t “wear†out, they “burn†out do to the high temperatures of combustion of the powder.

The only, IMO, valid reason for some type of break-in cleaning is best described in the post on what John Krieger says about it. All you are doing is not allowing copper to build up in the throat area prior to getting it smoothed out by the rounds being fired.

If you leave the copper in there it just builds up and covers the rough areas of the throat. Then later on you clean all the copper out and you have the same rough throat that will have to be coated in copper again to smooth out. Allot of time that’s what “fouling†shots are actually doing for you. It’s the throat that needs to be “fouled†not the bore, and if you would have gotten it polished out during a break in those fouling shots might not be needed at all.

Since the drift of discussion here is generally about enhancing the accuracy life of barrels, it might be useful to recall a long ago American Rifleman article by E. H. Harrison. In "Prolonging Match Barrel Life" (AR, December 1970) Harrison described the experiences of several people who fired many thousands of rounds through 30 caliber target barrels. His conclusion was that barrel life was influenced principally by the frequency and thoroughness of cleaning, with bullet diameter also important. (Bigger is better.) Accuracy life of upwards of fifteen - twenty thousand rounds was experienced in some of these barrels. Of great interest to me in my highpower competition years was Harrison's description of methods for restoring presumably 'worn out' barrels to match-grade accuracy. Both Norman Johnson and Martin Hull, says Harrison, made a hobby of this. (Competitors of a certain age will recognized both these names for sure.) Their methods varied somewhat, but both had in common the liberal used of abrasive compounds. Hull references specifically "Brobst" - which the same vintage gents will recognize as the "B" in "JB". The Harrison article is worth digging up by anyone who has access to an American Rifleman collection - or a library having one.

Mike there are probably as many different methods to break in a barrel as there are shooters.

The technique I use is pretty simple: I clean the barrel after five shots regardless so break in is really no different than any other shooting for me. Shoot five, clean the bore, and shoot five in another rifle while the first one is cooling down. Works well enough for me...

It depends on the barrel. Some barrels are hand lapped at the factory, I believe that Weatherby's and Lothar Walthers are, among others. Regular carefull cleaning is all they need. On the other hand Ive got a few A&B bbls that get JB's on a regular basis. A borescope would be extremly usefull for breaking in a barrel.

If you really want to extend the life of a barrel shoot moly coated bullets.

Since I started shooting moly in my hi-power barrels they now last around 5400 rounds whereas they used to go south around 3800-4,000 rounds.

Clean-up is a few patches of Kroil. Copper fouling is completely eliminated if you use properly coated bullets in a prepped bore. Downside to all this is the mess and fuss. Your bore will always be "dirty" in the sense that you never want to clean it down to bare metal. You always want to maintain a coating of moly and with that will come a small amount of powder fouling. But copper fouling is zero.

Please note I'm talking about using PROPER moly coating technique. Not the moly people tried from the automotive supply store that cause pitted barrels because it ain't the same stuff.

My experience is over the life of 4 rifle barrels. 2 using plain jacketd bullets and 2 using moly. YMMV.