Thinking an 03-A3 in 257 roberts.
Stockwork,re-barrel,and action work?
Thanks,
7

What's your plan and what's your budget?

I've got one from flaig i would consider parting with, if you would like to meet at the range and give it a try

jeffe

Griffin & Howe!!

First, I try to discourage anyone from spending big money on making a high grade sporter from an o3A3. Machine work on the receiver and bolt is not as good as on the pre World War II high number rifles. The best action to use is the double heat treat, the later nickel steel is not quite as slick. As to Griffin & Howe, they are shotgun specialists these years and make relatively few rifles, altho I do not doubt they could make a nice one. A sporter from one of the first line makers will kill the best part of 10g depending on how much you spend for the wood, engraving extra. What is your budget? There are good makers around who do not charge such stratospheric prices.

I think the 03-A3's make a fine sporter hunting rifle.
The level of 'slickness' really just depends on what you want done and/or how much you want to put into it.
Just completing a LH 30-06 to 7mm Rem Mag conversion for a customer and that has added up to $500.
It includes new Shilen barrel, chambering, bolt face opened up, glass bedding, polishing, bluing, trigger job, scope mounting etc.

If it shoots as good as it looks and functions then it is money well-spent.
If you think about it, he is pretty much getting a brand new gun for that $500.

The way that I structure my prices, far less than $1000 will get you one fine looking and shooting rifle.

It really depends on what you are going to use it for. If it is for hunting deer, antelope etc. then I cannot see the reason for putting in a large amount of cash for something that shoots 1/8" when all you really need is about an inch or better at 100 yards.

-Spencer

Gotta luv 'em! ($180 in this one):

I have to agree with vigillinus on using an 03A3. A Remington 1903 costs little more to start with and it will look and work much nicer. The bolts are very rough looking in the 03A3s and the bottom metal is pressed rather than milled. With what a person spends on customizing a Springfield today I certainly don't want either of these. Here is a picture of a Remington 1903 project that I am doing at the present. It will have a Griffin & Howe type stock put on it someday from a very nice piece of bastogne walnut I have.

Dennis Olson of Plains, Montana did the work on this one. I have found him to do very good work at reasonable prices and a quick turnaround time.

One of my favorite Springfields. This one is a Springfield Armory Double Heat treated action.


In case it doesn't show, I love Springfields.

Well, I am proving right now that an 03a3 can be made into a very fine rifle, but it is going to cost you a good amount of coin. In retrospect I could have used one of my two 03's or my 03 bare action. But this is a gift and was the first rifle I had which the giftee helped me pick out. Not to mention at some point 03's won't be so common (already getting less of them for good prices) so 03a3's might need to get some attention.

Just be aware that it is going to cost you extra because it isn't an 03, and not cheap either. But the 03 full blown custom isn't going to be real good on the wallet either. Like mentioned, if you are going to use it for a hunting rifle then you are talking sporter stock, good barrel and installation. drill and tap, bolt handle and safety. done. (blueing of course). I actually have one in the safe that is 257rob.ai., not mine but get to shoot it if I feel like. great gun, heavier contoured douglas blah blah.

If you take it past that to full out custom it can add up fast. there are a lot of contours on it so surface grinding will be high dollars. You will need to buy an 03 bolt for it, as well as 03 triggerguard and floorplate. the bolt stop surround on the 03a3 is uglier than the 03 and making it pretty will cost.

my longwindednes to say: "if you are going for a hunting rifle you are no worse off than with the 03 really, just cosmetics there. if you are going with a real nice rig and are willing to spend the money and you want to use the 03a3 then it will turn out great". you just might find that a good deal on an 03 action will save you a couple to a few hundred on making the 03a3 as nice.

Red
sorry so long everybody

More project guns :

7mauser....

I concur with the preceding posts.

Much would depend upon how much money you wish to put into this project, and what type of aesthetic quality you wish the final product to have. O3A3's can make perfectly suitable sporting rifles, but cosmetic changes can be numerous....even to bring them to the quality of an 03.

The typical 03-A3 is not as well finished as the 03....frequently showing tool marks all over the action. The trigger guard/floorplate is the stamped variety rather than the attractive milled 03 model. The bolt typically has several machine steps rather than being a smooth cylindar. The rear action tang is a wide flat affair instead of the smooth rounded 03 tang. The cutoff switch molding is a round barrel rather than the 03 scalloped version (a feature I have less objection to than others).

The 03-A3 action and bolt can be much improved with stoning and polishing......but probably not cheaply unless you do it yourself (which isn't that big a challenge really). An easier solution is swap the bolt for a nicer 03 model.......which is an added expense. The triggerguard/floorplate should really be replaced with an 03 model....the visual improvement is significant.

Bolt handle, safety, trigger, and scope mounts are necessary expenses....plus stockwork labor and wood. If your budget is around the $1000 mark, I might be tempted to suggest an 03 as a starting point instead.

On the other hand, if you're looking at a small-budget sporter, and are willing to do some cosmetic jobs yourself.....you can end up with an attractive, useful rifle.

GV

Idared, I like your elegant Olsen pear shaped bolt knob but not the horrible schnable on your DHT sporter !!!!!!

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Originally posted by vigillinus:
Idared, I like your elegant Olsen pear shaped bolt knob but not the horrible schnable on your DHT sporter !!!!!!

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LOL....

I guess I have to confess to that mostrosity. I was going through a "phase" in the 80's. It's in the queue to get modified or replaced with a tip this summer.

GV

but not the horrible schnable on your DHT sporter

vigillinus

Even Dennis in his usual minimum amount of words said "A hint of a schnable would be fine but I think that is a bit much".

That is a fairly big sentence for him. Actually I have gotten to where it doesn't bother me anymore, but I do think it will probably end up being modified in the near future. I guess I like the rifle so well I am willing to have something a bit out of the norm.

Thanks guys,
I'm trying to buget around $1500 not counting gun purchase.

I like schnabel forends, at one time most of the early custom rifle makers used them. Everyone seems to be different, even if by the same maker. My favorites are the ones made using horn or ebony.

Michaael,
That schnabel and checkering looks very Shelhammer to me. I'm still trying to get my dad to give you a call with his Shelhammer/Springfield serial numbers.

John

You guys are probably tired of seeing this picture but here's mine.

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Originally posted by Idared:
One of my favorite Springfields. This one is a Springfield Armory Double Heat treated action.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/025578.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/025579.jpg
In case it doesn't show, I love Springfields.

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NICE!!

Joining late but I am having an 03A3 made into a 257 Roberts as we speak. This particular action was already sporterized so many of the tool marks were already removed etc. I also had 03 milled bottom metal on hand for it to replace the stamped one. Timney trigger was also already installed.

I sent mine out to Jim Dubell at deltagunshop.com Jim does excellent work, his prices are reasonable, as is his turn around time. You can also try contacting Jim Kobe for an estimate. He posts on this site and also does very nice work.

You may wish to expand your budget some depending on what all you want or need done.

Not counting the cost of the donar rifle $1500 would about cover surface grinding and polishing, custom bases, truing the action, quality barrel and installation, aftermarket safety, trigger job, new uncheckered bolt handle, and new milled bottom metal.

Blueing is going to be extra as well as stockwork.

You will have to define what you mean by stockwork. A full custom walnut stock will exceed $1500 not counting the cost of the wood which can run from $200 to $2000 also. You need to figure at least another $500 for a good blue job. You can get "pre-shaped" stocks from various sources for $100 and up depending on wood choice. They are also available in laminate and ther are sythetic stock available also. On the other hand if by Stockwork you simply mean fitting the barreled action and bedding it into one of these preshapped stocks then that is a whole other matter. Bedding the action is fairly inexpensive.

Not trying to scare you off as I think this is a worthwhile project. Just want to make you aware of the actual costs. A budget closer to $2500 is more reasonable for the metal work listed above and bedding your rifle into a pre-shapped or synthetic stock.

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Originally posted by gasgunner:
Michaael, That schnabel and checkering looks very Shelhammer to me. I'm still trying to get my dad to give you a call with his Shelhammer/Springfield serial numbers. John

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It does look a little like Shelhamer’s work, he liked to do schnabel forends. S.R. Griffin also liked them and did this one before 1923.

500 sounds a bit high for the bluing, unless of course there is a lot of polishing to do. but even slow rust can be done for under 300.

A larger budget is needed if he is going for a custom like that. for 1500 though you could get a killer rifle. Say you go with a PacNor, so what, that's 450? scoped only? don't really need open sights on a 257, and don't need QR. so that shouldn't run you too much either. get a nice semi-inlet and do the finishing of it yourself, have it bedded. 250 to have it checkered real nicely. you'd have enough for your scope and everything with that budget. just depends on how much you want to spend.

I had about 750 or so in my 03a3 when it was an 06AI, and hunted with it for 3 years before donating it to the other project.

if you haven't purchased a rifle yet though look for an 03, you can probably find one for a decent price if you are patient and keep your eyes open.

Red

Yeah, I shot high on the Blue job sorry about that. I think mine is going about $250 now that I look back through my records. But the other $250 would buy a nice scope.

Actually Jim is just doing my metal work. And depending on what condition the action is in little things can really add up fast. Bueler style safety versus a 2 pos or 3 pos side swing safety, amount of polish work involved, aftermarket bolt handle or not. How much is he willing to do or can he do himself, etc. Pac-Nor is a very good choice for a barrel.

It really all boils down to what he truely wants. The military flag safety and bolt handle will work. After markets look better in my opinion. Stamped bottom metal works but milled looks way better. Whether he goes with custom bases or custom fit factory bases makes only a little difference in cost. There is a large range in what custom means and the cost varies appropriately.

Personally though I still think $1500 for what he wants is a little tight. But then again there are less expensive barrel options than even Pac-Nor which will again reduce cost. Retaining the military flag safety is another.

The absolute best thing to do is make up a list of what you feel is a must have and then add the nice to haves. Price out all the must haves. If there is any money left over in the budget you can look at the nice to haves.

Me I went with custom bases, hinged bottom metal, side swing safety, and Shilen barrel. Roger Kehr is making up a nice bolt handle for it. So as you can see my list is slighly different.

Pick a gunsmith and talk over options with him.

Isn't the Lyman 48 popular? How about this for your foundation?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976404270.htm

You might consider this strategy: tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of double heat treat 1903s have been sporterized and are floating around gunshops, pawnshops, gunshows and on the net and often can be had very reasonably with the costly usual modifications to the bolt handle, safety, d&t for scope, etc., already done. Start with one of those. Of course the flaw in this plan is that you don't know who did the work, also, in the 1950s and 60s when much of this was done smiths didn't know as much as they do today about blueprinting an action. Also if Jim Dubell or Dennis Olsen does the work you can be sure the bolt handle won't come off in your hand. So I guess there are plusses and minuses!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by vigillinus:
You might consider this strategy: tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of double heat treat 1903s have been sporterized and are floating around gunshops, pawnshops, gunshows and on the net and often can be had very reasonably with the costly usual modifications to the bolt handle, safety, d&t for scope, etc., already done. Start with one of those. Of course the flaw in this plan is that you don't know who did the work, also, in the 1950s and 60s when much of this was done smiths didn't know as much as they do today about blueprinting an action. Also if Jim Dubell or Dennis Olsen does the work you can be sure the bolt handle won't come off in your hand. So I guess there are plusses and minuses!!!

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I would likely endorse this approach. However, be advised that Idared and Vigillinus are attempting to corner the market on these actions.

I'm through with the "experimentation" phase with Springfields. All my future Springfields will be derivations of the early age of custom Springfields. Stocks in the style of Griffin & Howe, Linden, or Owen.

Springfields are heavy. They aren't necessarily inherently super accurate. They are military actions.....requiring sometimes expensive alterations. They have (endearing) idiosyncrasies.....the projecting cutoff switch and safety lug....the high rear bridge. However, they are a unique piece of Americana. And they've performed admirably....in both their intended creation....and in the sporting field.

Get one.......and be a part of a long list of famous people who used them.....Roosevelt, Whelen, O'Connor, etc....

GV

What kind of accuracy do you get from sporterized Springfields, if a good barrel is used? Are they comparable to Mausers, Ruger 77, etc?
Thanks.

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Originally posted by GrandView: tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of double heat treat 1903s have been sporterized and are floating around gunshops, pawnshops, gunshows and on the net and often can be had very reasonably with the costly usual modifications to the bolt handle, safety, d&t for scope, etc., already done. Start with one of those...my future Springfields will be derivations of the early age of custom Springfields...in the style of Griffin & Howe, Linden, or Owen...Get one and be a part of a long list of famous people who used them...Roosevelt, Whelen, O'Connor, etc...

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Excellent advice. Along with the pre-64 M-70, the classic 03 Springfield sporter is the quintessential American sporting rifle, often overlooked by many of today's shooters.

Why is it that everytime a person posts that they want to build a custom on an action of their choosing most of the replies are "find one already done" or "you can buy a new remchester for less money".

7mauser,
If this is what you want to do check your pm's. I have sent you a name and number of a good smith that will build a very nice and accurate rifle on any action you want. When it is finished you will cherish it no matter who builds it because it is yours made the way you want it.

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Originally posted by ElCaballero:
Why is it that everytime a person posts that they want to build a custom on an action of their choosing most of the replies are "find one already done"

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To save a shitload of money.

PAndy

quote:

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What kind of accuracy do you get from sporterized Springfields, if a good barrel is used? Are they comparable to Mausers, Ruger 77, etc?

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I have found Springfields to be just as accurate as most any rifle that has the same amount of work done to the action and the rest of the rifle. I would never worry about them being short in the accuracy department.

ElCaballero

quote:

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Why is it that everytime a person posts that they want to build a custom on an action of their choosing most of the replies are "find one already done" or "you can buy a new remchester for less money".

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I merely agreed with the idea that if a fairly good sum of money would go into this project that I would rather start with a 1903. To me $1500 is a fair amount of money so I will stand by my suggestion. If you have ever had both a 1903 and a 1903A3 Springfield in your hand, I doubt you would question my logic either. I would never suggest using "a new remchester" because I myself would feel I was defeating the original purpose.

Accuracy - everything else being equal, a 1903 would theoretically be more accurate than an 1898 because the receiver is stiffer, there is no thumbcut in the left receiver rail. Then a Model 54 will do better than a 1903 because the receiver siderails are thicker, and a 70 better than a 54 because the front guard screw comes up into a flat instead of into the front recoil lug, permitting more solid bedding. This brief analysis disregards such factors as lock time or trigger quality. Remington 700s (for which I have no use at all) with their tubular receivers are instrinsically even more accurate, unfortunately for traditionalists like me. I know nothing about such oddities as Weatherbys, Savages (which have a wonderful reputation), Rugers or the Europeans.

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Originally posted by fla3006:

To save a shitload of money.

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I make money to spend on things that I need and want. If the man wants a custom rifle and has $1500 to spend on it I want to help him find a place to spend it not help him save it so his kids can spend it on something they want. We sound like a bunch of women. "Oh guess what I was in the gun shop and found this rifle and it was half the cost of the one I wanted and of course not nearly as good but I saved $750 and I had this coupon so that took off another 15% and..."
JEEEEEEEZZZZZZ

This is what I am used too hearing: "Wow Roger that is a nice rifle. What are you going to tell your wife it cost."
Roger says "It ain't really none of her business we are both old enough to take care of ourselves"
(acual quote heard it Saturday)

You guys can save money ON your rifles I am going to save money FOR my rifles.

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Originally posted by GrandView:
7mauser....

The typical 03-A3 is not as well finished as the 03....frequently showing tool marks all over the action. The 03-A3 action and bolt can be much improved with stoning and polishing......but probably not cheaply unless you do it yourself (which isn't that big a challenge really). The triggerguard/floorplate should really be replaced with an 03 model....the visual improvement is significant.

GV

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I had an 03A3 which I polished myself, replaced the bottom metal with 03 stuff, had the bolt altered by forging, then it was restocked with French walnut by Paul Jaeger. I then had it polished and blued again by Jaeger, and the bolt machine-turned. Installed a Timney adjustable side-safety trigger, then had it rechambered for .308 Norma Magnum by Shebals Gun Shop in Fairbanks, AK. They also redid the magazine. This rifle fed as well as a Mannlicher-Schoenauer (well, almost as well!)

quote:

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Originally posted by El Deguello:

I had an 03A3 which I polished myself, replaced the bottom metal with 03 stuff, had the bolt altered by forging, then it was restocked with French walnut by Paul Jaeger. I then had it polished and blued again by Jaeger, and the bolt machiune-turned. Installed an adjustable, side-safety trigger, then had it rechambered for .308 Norma Magnum by Shebals Gun Shop in Fairbanks, AK. They also redid the magazine. This rifle fed as well as a Mannlicher-Schoenauer (well, almost as well!)

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I've done much the same with a couple of A3's, and I've not regreted the effort. Aside from the Krag, I've found the Springfield action to be the "slipperiest" action to work. I certainly like the feel......and the sound.

I dug around a little on the net and found this quote by Craig Boddington.

"In 1903 Roosevelt got a brand new "Big Stick" in the form of the 1903 Springfield service rifle. It replaced the smooth-operating Krag-Jorgensen in .30 U.S. (.30-40 Krag), in service only since 1898. It became the longest-running standard service rifle in United States history (fact), the most beloved rifle action of the 20th century (popular opinion) and was the best bolt-action military rifle the world ever saw (my opinion)."

I probably wouldn't stand on a box and endorse it over vehement objections from others........but I feel much the same way.

GV

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Originally posted by ElCaballero: If the man wants a custom rifle and has $1500 to spend on it I want to help him find a place to spend it

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If I had $1500 budgeted for a custom rifle and could get most of what I wanted for $200, then I'd have $1300 left for MORE rifles.

See the pic I posted above of the 3 project Springfields? I paid a little over $200 for the sporter on the bottom. With a little bit of my own elbow grease and maybe another $200 in gunsmithing I can't do myself, it will look as good as any $3500 Griffin & Howe or Hoffmann Springfield.

Fact is, there's alot of sporterized Springfields around and not alot of demand for them and they can often be bought for a fraction of what it would cost to customize one from the ground up.

Looks like a nice rifle.

When I dream about a custom rifle, the one that comes up first is a Bob Owen Springfield sporter. They were the ultimate in beauty, and still are.
Don

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Originally posted by DMB:
When I dream about a custom rifle, the one that comes up first is a Bob Owen Springfield sporter. They were the ultimate in beauty, and still are.
Don

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Let me help you with that dream,
Owen