quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
The m odification is about as simple as dirt. You make the forward "cam" sorta in the shape of a quesion mark...I'll send a photo to show what I mean...but in the meantime, try to close the bolt over a round "up the spout" There will be a "smear" carefully grind/polish off the "smear"...It will be on the upper part of the cam...very little metal will have to be removed...It may take a bit of extra effort, but you'll soon be able to snap the extractor over the groove...this is mostly only a modification of the angle of t he cam....do not take metal off the h ook itself. some of the "New" Mauser's do not have sufficient clearance in the R. side of the ring...BIG MISTAKE! D o what ever You need to do to make said clearance...especially on dangerous game rifles....seeya Duane

Duane's photo:

You can laugh all you want jeffe, your at the top of the class in that 1%

jeffeosso
Moderator

Posted Jan 11, 5:39 AM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by malm:
The other 1 percent can be remedied through a little education on how to operate the gun.


LMAO

we band of bubbas
STC Hunting Club
http://www.weaponsmith.com
At some point the survival instinct kicks in. I think the 12 Ga FH can achieve that.-Robgunbuilder

At times, it is amusing to read "opinions", if only to recognize the experience of the poster

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
FYJ,
so, you refuse to accept the challenge or the reason why?


Mausers don't snap over OUT OF THE BOX, which is why there is a section in the manual is on how to FORCE it over.

Now, please show me where the hell I said I fought a war?

and, btw, you are merely be contradicting, not actualy discussing your post. but that is your standard approach when called out.

I don't udnerstand your OBSESSION with being "totally" correct, even when you ask a question as to why.

In short, you have a challenge before you. come show me how a STOCK mauser is faster forcing one up the pipe, for shooting 20 rounds.

You can't, you won't, but you'll argue about it for days.


jeffe

Please forgive the delay but it takes me five or six readings of your posts to try and decipher what the hell you are trying to say. I don’t know what you do for a living but it obviously has little to do with communicating in writing.

Could you please direct me to my statement where I said anything at all about the “speed†at which any particular weapon could be loaded?

All I have stated is that I do not believe that Mr. Mauser designed his extractors to intentionally preclude loading single rounds by just placing them in the action and closing the bolt, and I have posed the question as to what possible reason he would have had to design them to prevent that. So far, that question has not been answered.

I’ll accept your challenge, but only if duikerman is the target and you have to use a rifle that YOU built yourself!!!!

Just a thought on this one...I checked the book "Arms Of The Reich". It has a section on Ammunition and Ammunition Packaging. In it, it states that the rounds are packed on chargers and packed in a pattern 88 ammunition box.
Much as Grand clips come prepacked and in bandoleers, in a ammo case. The germans prepacked all the Ammo the infantry needed into nice neat packaging, that could be issued to each man, and placed into the belt pouches 12 clips or 60 rounds to a man, plus 5 rounds in the weapon. They never intended the average infantryman to carry loose rounds.

With that said, this thread has degenerated into an ill tempered mud slinging contest.

Hansel

quote:

Originally posted by Hansel:
With that said, this thread has degenerated into an ill tempered mud slinging contest.

Hansel

True and have we noticed it's always the same folks that are involved?

Grow up out there.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
FYJ,

In short, you have a challenge before you. come show me how a STOCK mauser is faster forcing one up the pipe, for shooting 20 rounds.

You can't, you won't, but you'll argue about it for days.


jeffe

Could you please direct me to my statement where I said anything at all about the “speed†at which any particular weapon could be loaded?

Certainly - you can think of no vliad reason for the design.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
I can think of absolutely no valid reason why there would be a “combat related†reason for a rifle to be limited in how it could chamber and fire a round. If someone else can think of one I would be more than willing to hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:

All I have stated is that I do not believe that Mr. Mauser designed his extractors to intentionally preclude loading single rounds by just placing them in the action and closing the bolt,

44,000,000+ m98s made, not a single one snaps over, from the factory, and you can't believe it? why color ME surprised. and every german infantry manual shows the procedure for forcing it to snap over... hmmm, one wonders whom to believe, the MAKER or FYJ... wait a second, this seems awefully familiar....

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
and I have posed the question as to what possible reason he would have had to design them to prevent that.

actually, asked and answered, that you don't get it, well, is not in this case, or anyother case, the repliers issue. SPEED, son, CONTROL jr, RELIABILITY, sunshine...

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
So far, that question has not been answered.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
I’ll accept your challenge, but only if duikerman is the target and you have to use a rifle that YOU built yourself!!!!

So, now, you express, over the internet, a desire to shoot at another human being that you have been hounding and insulting? Hmm, wonder if this should be reported to HLS...

The challenge, since you are self admittedly not a very skilled reader, is stock mausers.

I think once you actually handle one in a military configuration, and if you understood that persons do as they are trained when under stress, you would actually see why.

So, feel free to argue for days....

as for a rifle i've worked on... one could not determine, from you various postings of pictures... no, wait...... you have actually said anything about your projects now, have you... posted a picture... or even disucssed something you are working on in detail...

VAGUE is a good word for you...

headed to dallas....

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
... you have to use a rifle that YOU built yourself!!!!

With as much work as I have presented here on AR and on my website, i can see you could get jealous, with your obsession with me (over 205 of your posts are in reference to me) and that you ahven't posted a single instance of your own work.

Don't worry, you'll figure out how to post pictures sooner or later...
but, please tell us, how do YOU modify mauser extractors to snap over cases? I take it from your posts that you think this happens "out of the box"... well, sorry, no, it doesn't work that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Hansel:
Just a thought on this one...I checked the book "Arms Of The Reich". It has a section on Ammunition and Ammunition Packaging. In it, it states that the rounds are packed on chargers and packed in a pattern 88 ammunition box.
Much as Grand clips come prepacked and in bandoleers, in a ammo case. The germans prepacked all the Ammo the infantry needed into nice neat packaging, that could be issued to each man, and placed into the belt pouches 12 clips or 60 rounds to a man, plus 5 rounds in the weapon. They never intended the average infantryman to carry loose rounds.

Sometimes you are faced with no choice. Sometimes in combat, and that is what the Mauser was designed for, you don't have a choice. You have to play the cards you are dealt.

Like during a firefight, when you are in a life and death struggle, stumbling, fumbling and ducking incoming rounds from someone who is bent on killing you and is within 50 feet of your position and closing. When, for whatever reason during the exchange, your magazine or clip falls apart as you try desperately to insert it into the weapon, dumping your ammo in the dirt. It is during such times of panick, that you had better be able to retrieve a round, throw it into the loading port, close the bolt and return fire like your life depended on it.

The same holds true for ANY weapon that is used to hunt any game that can kill you. If Paul Mauser didn't consider the above scenario when designing the 98, then he wasn't any brighter than those who like to quote and/or worship him, and could explain the dead soldiers with jammed rounds in their chambers that Marc Stokeld mentioned earlier.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
So, now, you express, over the internet, a desire to shoot at another human being that you have been hounding and insulting? Hmm, wonder if this should be reported to HLS...

Do you preceive everything as a threat? Quit being a boob.

Malm:

You are 100% correct as well, even with the issuance of clips, I am sure Paul Mauser intended his combat weapon to operate in all contingencies....I am sorry I didn't make that more clear in my post, thank you for bringing it more forcefully, and clearly to my attention. I appreciate those who conduct themselves as gentlemen!
I think that We have lost much Mauser knowledge, as the years since it was a prime weapons system have passed, I also don't believe any of us has an original Armorers manual or German infantry skills hand book. And, while I am a student of history, I don't pretend to know it all...I learn much each day from those who come at a set of facts from a different direction.
In this Issue, I truly believe that beveling the extractor to make single loading easier is not going to cause any Cosmic catastrophy. I also believe that it has been done for so long that it is like fighting over wether the pearlly gates swing or slide.

Thank you for articulating your point so well.

Hansel

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
[..that you had better be able to retrieve a round, throw it into the loading port, close the bolt and return fire like your life depended on it.

The same holds true for ANY weapon that is used to hunt any game that can kill you. If Paul Mauser didn't consider the above scenario when designing the 98, then he wasn't any brighter than those who like to quote and/or worship him, and could explain the dead soldiers with jammed rounds in their chambers that Marc Stokeld mentioned earlier.

My father sold his gun designs to the military for 40 years.
I have been designing sub assemblies for small missiles for 30 years.

It is possible that the military flowed down a silly requirement, and P Mauser complied.

The sights on many Mausers I own will not shoot right until the target is 200 meters or further. That ladder sight non sense lasted 100 years.

It could be that there was a requirement that the extractor had to make a 500 pound pull on the case without tearing off the rim.

This possibility would preclude push feed, but governments paid their money and took their choice.

Having bought many guns just to take them apart and see how they work, I couldn't BE a bigger Paul Mauser fan.

And before you flame me, I spent $400 at your web site today

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
Having bought many guns just to take them apart and see how they work, I couldn't BE a bigger Paul Mauser fan.

And before you flame me, I spent $400 at your web site today

Why would I flame you?

Now as for spending $400.00 at my website... I really wish you would have just sent me the money directly instead. You see, I don't have a website.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
[..that you had better be able to retrieve a round, throw it into the loading port, close the bolt and return fire like your life depended on it.

The same holds true for ANY weapon that is used to hunt any game that can kill you. If Paul Mauser didn't consider the above scenario when designing the 98, then he wasn't any brighter than those who like to quote and/or worship him, and could explain the dead soldiers with jammed rounds in their chambers that Marc Stokeld mentioned earlier.

My father sold his gun designs to the military for 40 years.
I have been designing sub assemblies for small missiles for 30 years.

It is possible that the military flowed down a silly requirement, and P Mauser complied.

The sights on many Mausers I own will not shoot right until the target is 200 meters or further. That ladder sight non sense lasted 100 years.

It could be that there was a requirement that the extractor had to make a 500 pound pull on the case without tearing off the rim.

This possibility would preclude push feed, but governments paid their money and took their choice.

Having bought many guns just to take them apart and see how they work, I couldn't BE a bigger Paul Mauser fan.

And before you flame me, I spent $400 at your web site today

tnekkcc,

Thank you, your observations make perfect sense and could very well be the true answer. Since Paul Mauser was so rude as to up and die on us before we could ask him the question in person your answer makes far more sense than the silly drivel coming from all these supposed Mauser experts.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
Having bought many guns just to take them apart and see how they work, I couldn't BE a bigger Paul Mauser fan.

And before you flame me, I spent $400 at your web site today

Why would I flame you?

Now as for spending $400.00 at my website... I really wish you would have just sent me the money directly instead. You see, I don't have a website.

Geez malm, you don’t have a web site or a “band of buddies“? How in the world can anyone take anything you say about rifles seriously??

They'll just have to trust me...

quote:

All I have stated is that I do not believe that Mr. Mauser designed his extractors to intentionally preclude loading single rounds by just placing them in the action and closing the bolt, and I have posed the question as to what possible reason he would have had to design them to prevent that. So far, that question has not been answered.

While Mauser may not have intentionally designed the extractor not to snap over a single-fed cartridge, he put his name on millions that did not.
There is a slight chamfer on the nose, but it is far from being enough to close the bolt over without modification.
The 03 suffers from the same problem, but it was shortened considerably in comparison to the 98.

The model 70 (maybe 54) was the first of the Mauser knock-offs to actually be designed from the start to single-feed a cartridge, but that doesn't mean that they got it right too often either.
That angle has to be held very close and surface finish should be nearly a mirror in order for it to function smoothly while closing over a case.

To work over a Mauser extractor by hand to accomplish this task isn't that difficult with skilled hands and the right equipment, but I've seen twice as many that have been screwed up, as I've seen ones that were done right.

For whatever reason......it's a little more difficult to put material on, rather than taking it off.

I think the P14 Enfield was designed to snap over the rim. It has a funky looking hook extractor compared to the mausers and other knockoffs.

The '17 Enfield has a standard looking extractor and I don't think it will snap over without alteration.

Rojelio

Jesus Jeff, grow the fuck up. Can't you tell a fucking joke?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
FYJ,

In short, you have a challenge before you. come show me how a STOCK mauser is faster forcing one up the pipe, for shooting 20 rounds.

You can't, you won't, but you'll argue about it for days.


jeffe

Could you please direct me to my statement where I said anything at all about the “speed†at which any particular weapon could be loaded?

Certainly - you can think of no vliad reason for the design.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
I can think of absolutely no valid reason why there would be a “combat related†reason for a rifle to be limited in how it could chamber and fire a round. If someone else can think of one I would be more than willing to hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:

All I have stated is that I do not believe that Mr. Mauser designed his extractors to intentionally preclude loading single rounds by just placing them in the action and closing the bolt,

44,000,000+ m98s made, not a single one snaps over, from the factory, and you can't believe it? why color ME surprised. and every german infantry manual shows the procedure for forcing it to snap over... hmmm, one wonders whom to believe, the MAKER or FYJ... wait a second, this seems awefully familiar....

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
and I have posed the question as to what possible reason he would have had to design them to prevent that.

actually, asked and answered, that you don't get it, well, is not in this case, or anyother case, the repliers issue. SPEED, son, CONTROL jr, RELIABILITY, sunshine...

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
So far, that question has not been answered.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
I’ll accept your challenge, but only if duikerman is the target and you have to use a rifle that YOU built yourself!!!!

So, now, you express, over the internet, a desire to shoot at another human being that you have been hounding and insulting? Hmm, wonder if this should be reported to HLS...

The challenge, since you are self admittedly not a very skilled reader, is stock mausers.

I think once you actually handle one in a military configuration, and if you understood that persons do as they are trained when under stress, you would actually see why.

So, feel free to argue for days....

as for a rifle i've worked on... one could not determine, from you various postings of pictures... no, wait...... you have actually said anything about your projects now, have you... posted a picture... or even disucssed something you are working on in detail...

VAGUE is a good word for you...

headed to dallas....

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:

Read page 61 of Kuhnhausen’s shop manual for Mausers and see what he says about the proper fitting and adjusting of extractors.

In part he says: “The cam surface at the front of the claw must remain at the original factory 45 degree angle and contour in order to cam the extractor over the rim of a chambered cartridge.â€

He doesn’t say on a “modified†extractor, he clearly says “at the original factory angle and contour.â€

I thought this was a Mauser design for CRF and not for push feeding a cartridge into the chamber:

The bolt recoil lugs cam rearward against the grooves inside the receiver rings, this caming action pulls the extractor claw slightly forward and its dovetail engages the undercut bolt head locking the blade onto 90degrees of the cartridge rim circumference. As the bolt cams rearward the cartridge is pulled from the chamber.

So in essence, the Mauser grabs and locks onto the cartridge rim, cams it into the chamber, rips it back out, and flings the extracted empty before grabbing the next shot from the magazine. I had thoght the angles were important for this purpose.

GVA

I must humbly bring an error to the Groups attention...On of the posters posted the following:
Read page 61 of Kuhnhausen’s shop manual for Mausers and see what he says about the proper fitting and adjusting of extractors.
In part he says: “The cam surface at the front of the claw must remain at the original factory 45 degree angle and contour in order to cam the extractor over the rim of a chambered cartridge.â€

I just read my copy of Kuhnhausen's Book...Folks, I noticed this Quote comes under the heading "ABOUT M92-M96 Extractor fit" So it has no bearing on the Model 98 rifle.

But as I have said before, this has degenerated into a ill tempered mess!

By all means modify your extractor and stop fighting over it as if we are all govt inspectors fighting over an inspection point!

For gods sake, it is not worth losing our dignity over this issue! We all have strongly held feelings and beliefs...Lets agree to disagree as gentlemen!

Thank you,

Hansel

Food for thought:

Mauser's original rifles were push feeds (71 and 84). Problems with battlefield double-feeds led him to develope the CRF, starting with the model 92.

CRF was developed to eliminate human error, making the rifle idiot proof. Semi and full automatic firearms use speed and automation to eliminate the possibility of a human "double-feeding" the chamber. Putting a non-rotating CRF extractor onto a bolt that cycles 600 rpm would cause additional metal wear, while offering no practical advantage.

Single loading a magazine is easier than single loading a chamber. Mauser put the rails on the reciever (instead of a magazine) and even allowed for a left side opening to accomplish this with goves on.

The idea of "dropping a round into the chamber" was not even a consideration in the 1890's. Military rifles had 29" barrels. Formations, trenches and foxholes dictated that rifles are loaded and reloaded "muzzle-up," not muzzle down like your typical hunter. Short barreled 98's did not come into use until the late 1930's, long after PM's death, and too late in the game to justify changing a proven design.

If a round gets jammed into the chamber ahead of the extractor (due to human error), troops were trained to use the offhand to push in on the side of the extractor while the bolt is pushed home. This "flexing" of the extractor, combined with a slight bevel on the extractor face, allows it to snap over the rim of a chambered cartridge.

The German "soldiers" encountered near the end of the war were mostly young boys and old men, with little or no training in the proper use of the 98.

In order to understand why it was important to design a military rifle that can be loaded upside down, one merely has to try it while crawling on your back under barbed wire, a common tactic in turn-of-the century warfare.

I hope this helps folks understand why a model 98 is the way it is. I'm sure that if Paul Mauser were designing a sporting rifle for use today, it would be a lot different. It would, however, be designed with the same meticulous attention to detail that he put into the military 98.

KurtC,
excellent post....I think it's dead on!

quote:

Originally posted by Hansel:
I must humbly bring an error to the Groups attention...On of the posters posted the following:
Read page 61 of Kuhnhausen’s shop manual for Mausers and see what he says about the proper fitting and adjusting of extractors.
In part he says: “The cam surface at the front of the claw must remain at the original factory 45 degree angle and contour in order to cam the extractor over the rim of a chambered cartridge.â€

I just read my copy of Kuhnhausen's Book...Folks, I noticed this Quote comes under the heading "ABOUT M92-M96 Extractor fit" So it has no bearing on the Model 98 rifle.

But as I have said before, this has degenerated into a ill tempered mess!

By all means modify your extractor and stop fighting over it as if we are all govt inspectors fighting over an inspection point!

For gods sake, it is not worth losing our dignity over this issue! We all have strongly held feelings and beliefs...Lets agree to disagree as gentlemen!

Thank you,

Hansel

Well since you’ve got this humble thing down pat try it again and read the rest of the page and see what he says about the M98 extractors. Specifically, the last sentence in Fiqure 65 which says: “M98 extractors also cam to the side to engage a chambered cartridge.†And then you can read the last section on page 61 entitled†“About M98 Extractor Fit†and see where its starts by saying that: “ the above fitting rules also apply to M98 type extractors“, those above fitting rules contain the sentence I quoted.

It might also be enlightening to notice that the author of this shop manual makes extensive use of sectioned Mausers to demonstrate exactly how parts interact and work on the various models. I doubt that many people on this forum have ever seen, let alone have access to such stuff.

FYJ:

I Stand corrected on my first point! Thank you. As I said before I don't know everything and as I was reading early this morning I was going a bit to quick...No offense to you sir.

But, The rest of my post I hold, is Spot on. As gentlemen engage in discussions, I assert that we need not behave like Congress, it only serves to cheapen us.

Hansel

quote:

Originally posted by Hansel:
FYJ:

I Stand corrected on my first point! Thank you. As I said before I don't know everything and as I was reading early this morning I was going a bit to quick...No offense to you sir.

But, The rest of my post I hold, is Spot on. As gentlemen engage in discussions, I assert that we need not behave like Congress, it only serves to cheapen us.

Hansel

Hansel,

I’m not a “sir†I work for a living!

An honest mistake on your part...no harm, no foul and no offense taken.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

I think once you actually handle one in a military configuration, and if you understood that persons do as they are trained when under stress, you would actually see why.


headed to dallas....

[/QUOTE]


I assume that you were “trained†to lie, change the subject, and start crying to DRG, because every time you get “stressed†those seem to be your automatic reactions.

Guys,

Thank you for the information and the extensive background information. Very educational.

I was able to get the extractor modified to load a round in the chamber and still work as a CRF from the magazine. If I didn't cut too much from the hook getting it done things will be wonderful. Won't really be able to tell that until the rifle is fired and we can see how much the extraction effort increases on a spent.

Now all I have to do is have the patience to wait for the bedding to finish cross linking, put on the front sight ramp, and get the barrel blued after test firing ;>

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:
Jesus Jeff, grow the f*** up. Can't you tell a f***ing joke?

Sure I can, I read them in the humor forum often.

and, of course, posts like the following MUST be a joke, on the unfinished m98 receivers thread

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Chris,
i've handled these.. rough begins to describe them. The third lug has to be cut, which is a B%%%%%%

jeffe

Just remove it from the bolt instead of cutting the lug recess.

Jeez Jeff, You really need to get a life.