As the result of my intemperate passions, I now have two almost perfect 1909s. These are for the most part pristine, with only a few blems on the stocks.

Certainly, the metal is pristine.

As collector's items, I believe them to be borderline. One has a nice Lyman aperture sight, which appears to be professionally installed, and a globe front sight on the 1909 band. (Incidentally, for those who haven't tried, the globe front sight is trick. Really great.)

The other has... a bolt with no serial number. Although an Argentine proof.

Although a certain contingent would, well, swoon just to think of the possibility of these rifles being used as the basis for custom guns, it's been suggested, by a source I respect, that their consecutive serial numbers might make them appropriate action donors for a matched custom pair.

Opinions?

flaco

I would say that matched serial numbers in military configuration would be way more desirable than if they were sportered.

I have never heard of that before.

Let them be.

-Spencer

quote:

Certainly, the metal is pristine.

Bruce,
Please give us an idea of your expectations of the metal being pristine, and for what use? Are these to be "as-issued" as your default description implies, or someone's well done sporters? I am very interested in the argentinian "proof", as I am certain you mean the CREST, which is a nationtionality, not a proof, as proofing would be performed in Germany... as Argentina doesn't have a proof house.

To be clear, the nice scroll engraving over the front ring is a "crest", and the small hand tooled symbols and alpha-numberic characters (generally on the barrel itself) are the proofs in the case of german made bolt guns.

Certainly would like to hear more of your considerations and assumptions on these, along with your plan go forward.

Oh, to address your question if sequential serial number receivers are desireable for making a pair of sporters, certainly it would make a nice place to start. the 1909 is a great action to work from. You should refer back to your source and ask that person's opinion on re-heat treating these to normalize the hardness.

Certainly a place to start, especially if one has some sporterized milisurps to start from


jeffe

I may be incorrect in this assumption, but I think many makers have their own line of serial numbers that are affixed to the weapon after completion of the job. So, if you were going to have two rifles made up at the same time you would get consecutive serial numbers from the maker. Moreover, most makers that I know of would want to make the front ring consectric with the bore, and would therefore surface gring the serial numbers off on your 1909s

Lastly, if you do take the barrels off, take a flashlight and take a good look at the lugs on those 1909s. run your finger over them too. you might see and feel some setback on them, and depending on what calibers you are going to barrel them to you will then have to decide if will need to have them carburized a bit.

22wrf,

You are indeed incorrect in your assumption. A metalsmith could not simply renumber a receiver so as to create a set of sequential receivers. That is against the law. As to surface grinding, the same numbers must go back on if they were removed during the process.

Flaco,

As military configuration collectors go, the first rifle has no value since it was altered for the peep sight. The second has less value than a matching numbered rifle because the bolt is not numbered. I think your friend is right in that the real attraction of these rifles is that they are sequentially numbered and would make for a nice brace of rifles.

In my estimation, the rifles are worth about $225 - $250 each. That does not mean that there aren't those out there that would pay a great deal more.

What matched pair do you plan to build?

Having read your posts before, I know that you are already aquainted with the carburisation process so I won't bother to parrot the warnings given by the others.

jeffe-

You bring up an interesting point. I hadn't paid much attention to the second rifle, as I just received it, but it looks like the proof on the bolt handle is "B"--is it the "Beta"?--which is commonly associated with the Brazilian 1908s.

I believe.

The proof most associated with the Argentines is called by some a "hat," although I had thought it to be an abbreviated form of the handshake symbol.

I posted primarily because I am not a collector, and have neither the money nor the inclination to be one. I got the second rifle because the man I purchased the first from felt it necessary for them to remain together, and I concur.

If anything, I am a novice Bubba, just finishing my first two projects. I've done all the work on these that I could, and had some specialized help from my very talented friends and neighbors.

It's all slow, painstaking work, but I enjoy it. I just completed SLOW rust bluing the first two, and I especially like that process. And the results.

Incidentally, my first two projects are on 1909 actions. I'm only really interested in Mausers, and I think tradition mandates a 1909 action for a custom gun.

Poleax-

I'm really ambivalent about sporterizing these actions. I can understand the purist sentiment that suggests they should remain in their original configuration.

Most smiths, I believe, would remove the crests, and perhaps the "Modelo Argentino" stamping. Leaving intact the DWM Berlin inscription. I love these pressings, so I'd be tempted to retain them both.

As to your suggested retail value in current configuration, only a fool would part with these rifles in the current market at your prices.

Sequential serial numbers or not.

flaco

N.B. Right now, I believe I'm inclined to trade them. Although I especially like the Lyman aperture sight. I prefer the idea of starting with a perhaps not as perfect 1909 action, and buffing it out. Although I would not claim metal work as my strongest talent.

Were these to be sporterized, I'd like to see them in the hands of a smith would could make rifles at least as beautiful as I think these are.

Oh, and... I'm always looking for a really nice piece of walnut. LOL.

Flaco,
jargon is an interesting thing, and generally overly specialized. The term "proof mark" refers ONLY to the marks associated with the testing of the firearm under over pressured loads which relay the information that the firearm is safe for the caliber as built. Inspection, handing, acceptence, arsenal, capture, importation, etc marks are generally called by their specific names.

As Poleax stated, being mismatched and/or sporterized, they have zero value as to being "pristine" mausers. This in no way detracts from their value as doner actions, but let's be clear in stating what they are. Well executed modifications on an otherwise military firearm are not pristine as "1909s" though they may cartainly be "pristine 1909 doner actions"

Leaving crests or not is the users choice, rather than the smith's insistance. If you prefer them, then keep them.

As to value, 250 is a high value for a sporterized milsurp, though with it being a sequential number, perhaps as much as 600 for the pair would be in order.

I believe the way you intend "bubba" to mean is a hamfisted or amature smith.... which, thanks for asking, has no relationship to the band of bubbas, and i can understand that misunderstanding. Also, effective engineering can be considered to be "bubbaed"...

Good luck on your project, whichever you choose.
jeffe

Sheesh, jeffe-

You think I would refer to myself as "ham fisted"?

On the board I most commonly frequent, "Bubba" is used ironically. As a reaction to the purists on another board. Which has banned many of our members.







When you find any 1909s like this for $250, jeffe, please let me know and I'll be glad to beg, borrow or steal the money to purchase them. (Although I'd feel a little guilty about taking advantage of a fool.)

Really, given your superior knowledge, I would have been happier to hear you riff about the possibility that the unnumbered bolt might be Brazilian.

And... I'm pretty proud of the work I've done on my project rifles. Maybe I'll post later in the week.

flaco

A bunch of these, some in really good shape, seem to be coming out of the woodwork now. I follow the prices on the four big sites. Some, of course, are priced for suckers, or the inexperienced.

Do you think some Argentine general emptied an arsenal, and moved them all to his warehouse?

Bruce,
perhaps you have taken me incorrectly or didn't read the rest of the sentence on bubba'ed.

Yep, great looking doners... the peep being drilled into the action may as well be pitted, for it's COLLECTOR value, and the mismatched bolt is actually less of a detrement.

I have no speculation to the lineage of the other bolt. It's a shame that the other was drilled.

For doners, actions go from 150-250 on this very site, about twice a month, with no pitting, and other than the serial numbers, that what these should be considered.

This is no insult to you, just a MFV of a pair of 1909 actions.

I am not being negative, which may be read into my comments if one chooses, but informative on what you have.

If fact if you read my comment on bubba'ed, you'll see AMATEUR smith or ham fisted. You should be proud of your work, as most people are proud of their own labors. It seems that your use of jargon is a little spotty on firearms, so I thought you might appreciate the actual meaning of the words you were using. Irony is generally best left for speaking, as tone is rather hard to bring over on posts.

jeffe

jeffe-

I spent enough time in college to know a lecture when I see one.

And, someone a long time ago advised me never to get in a pissing contest with a skunk.

I came here to learn.

You'll forgive me if I suggest you've answered questions I haven't asked.

flaco

N.B. You might want to try your spell-check, jeffe. The word is "amateur." Jargon, I guess.

Which might apply to a novice with a stock pantograph.

The difference is, I'm not trying to sell my work.

Years ago, in my youth, I was at a stage play in London. On the stage Robert Morley uttered the words "Pompous Ass." It's family lore that my brother, a little too loud, asked "What's an ass?"

Every single Argentine Mauser I have ever had, and I have had many, had a serial number on the bolt. Every single one. And in fact, the four that I have now each has a serial number on the bolt. Also, each one I have now has a bent bolt, not a straigt out bolt.

Therefore, it would be my considered opinion that one of your 09s has a mismatched bolt, which, in my opinion lowers its collectors value considerably.

And I agree with Jeffee that if one has holes drilled in it that also lowers its collectors value considerably.

Basically, what you have there is a couple of rather nice 1909 argentines that a serious military collector may be interested in for trading material.

Obviously, as has been often said, they are really only worth what somebody will pay for them and not a cent more.

Terry,
i think i have!!! tried to help a fella out, and well, i guess the help was actually not solicited. There's a phrase, which slips my mind right now, on when one "inspects" a message/grammer/etc as some sort of slight.

Bruce,
fair enough.. you can consider a serial communication a "lecture" if you like. Most people call that a post. Though I just may have been a technology instructure long enough for "here's the data" to come over as a lecture.

Please re-read my original post prior to replying, if you care to reply, and notice that there's more than a little "helping hand" there, which again you have deemed prudent to nibble on

For the record,
here's a couple 1909 actions in the price range we have discussed. while these may not be as "nice" as your intemperatly purchased pair, these are darn good starting actions...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=35068509

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=34921688

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=35009711



did i ever tell you the story about the guy that was an expert in "teeceePIP" (tcp/ip) ??

Don't worry on receiving another lecture from me. Boy, I miss the "ignore" feature.



jeffe

Just a guess here.....sounds to me like flaco is finding out that he paid too much for what he got .......and the realization of it stings......he said he came here to learn..... but it sounds like whoever sold him the rifles already gave him a lesson!

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
I came here to learn.

One might suggest there's a bit of evidence to the contrary.

I think there's been some fairly objective opinions given about your 1909's........spelling aside, as that appears to be an issue.

GV

Can anybody spell Genghis?

A wise man once told me to never ask a question that you didn’t want to hear the answer to, and I think the same might apply to asking for opinions that you really don’t want to hear.

flaco, you are coming across like a fart in a diving helmet.

Jeffe is a damn good guy. You are far from that from your posts. Altough we do not have an ignore button anymore, it is fairly easy to not respond to your posts, tough as it my be to not want to tell you where to shove the attitude.