i'm in the process of putting together a 6.5-06 on a vz24 action. while talking to a gunsmith recently i was told that i shouldn't have the action blueprited because the vz24 action is only hardened on the surface and there was a chance of removing the hardened surface metal(lapping bolt lugs etc) and being left with "soft" areas in the action. is this true?

do you plan to have the action heat treated?

Call Roy at 417-394-2526. He can fix you up. The more I hear this stuff the more suspect it becomes.

no, i had not planned to have the action heat treated. i didn't know that might be necessary. is it?

thanks for the input. i'll give roy a call

hadn't heard it put that way... as I understand it, the actions are heat treated, not case hardened...

its generally about 35-50 bucks to have on heat treated...

but, then again, we have this legacy of double heat treated springfields being bad, too...

blue printing the action should be truing the front ring (no structural load there) and making certain all the ways are stright... if your smith thinks recutting the lug ways is part of this, move ON...

jeffe

If you look at that action to hard you'll set the lugs back. I would keep my ammo, especially reloads at least 10ft away from the rifle at all times!

I've never heard anything like this about a VZ24 action. My .275 Rigby is built on one, the 'smith trued the action and lapped the lugs. Many hundreds of rounds down range and hunting with no issues. May be time for you to see about a new gunsmith.

Wait,

Jeffe, Kuhnhausen says the Mausers are case-hardened. That's why they stretch when they give instead of grenading. Also why you have to anneal the surface to drill and tap for scope mounts. He also, of course, recommends heat treating any one you work on.

The squaring step I think this smith is talking about is where you screw a fixture into the front receiver threads that has a rod centered in it, connected to the lathe on the outside, and extending inside with either a .470 cutter to cut the bolt face square, a .532 cutter to open the face to magnum and cut it square, or just a flat base to lap it square with abrasive compound.

I don't know if this would cut deep enough to cut through the hardened steel to the soft steel, and there wouldn't be a lot of heat. But I imagine that's what the guy's worried about.

Steve

quote:

Also why you have to anneal the surface to drill and tap

I've never had to anneal a mauser to do this

Furthermore I've used a dozen military mausers including VZ-24s in the last twenty years, never heat trteated any and never had any setback problems.....and I've chambered to 220 S and 25-06 and 300 win mag....no sweat.

That said there have been very prestigeous smiths on this forum make sound recommendations for heat treating. That advice should be heeded.

IMO I'd personally not hesitate to square the action.....lightly lapp the lugs and build your gun.

If I was going to spend thousands on this gun using this action as a base I'd send it to Blanchards in salt lake city for heat treating....they do it routinely...last I heard the cost is $75.

I no longer concern my self with this as I've quit using mil-surp actions.....fine as they are...I can find post war FNs for a lot less than the price of converting a milsurp and the heat treat issue is a non issue.

The more I here about this reheat treating the more suspect it becomes.

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
The more I here about this reheat treating the more suspect it becomes.

I truly suspect this is true for a lot of folks.

I agree that there's probably an awful lot of alarmism and liability protection built into the "re-heat treat every Mauser" mantra. Lots of Mausers have been successfully built and shot a ton with no new heat treatment. But folks were indicating the smith was out of his tree for the suggestion, and I don't think that's necessarily the case, either.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:

The squaring step I think this smith is talking about is where you screw a fixture into the front receiver threads that has a rod centered in it, connected to the lathe on the outside, and extending inside with either a .470 cutter to cut the bolt face square, a .532 cutter to open the face to magnum and cut it square, or just a flat base to lap it square with abrasive compound.

Steve

Steve,
we are thinking of exactly the same thing... BUT the exact front edge of the action that mates with the barrel (the barrel part is the significant part) mates to SOFT steel. Barrels are dead soft, compared to action surfaces.

unless you are going to DEEP surface grind for there, you can't touching any strengh.


the only actions' i have HAD to anneal or enfields and springfields.. harder than trolls skulls....

but I since changed to hitting them with dental burrs to get through the hardened surface.

jeffe

budiceale


I was in the shop the other day when you called and talked to the smith in question. I can assure you he did not get where he is today by giving inaccurate information on building Mausers. The difference is in what people pawn off as or believe is blueprinting. Facing the receiver and lapping lugs is a far cry from blueprinting.
Just a few weeks back I saw two surplus 98s, one of which was a vz24 that he cut the front ring off of (not guns he built) because of lug set back. If I lapped the lugs I personally would not risk not reheat treating or carburizing or what ever the frick you do to a Mauser. Not for fear of getting hurt but out of fear that I might tear up an action that I just spent a lot of money on.
For all of those that keep telling budiceale to move on, all I can say is the guy in question makes his living building Mausers and other fine custom rifles. He ant in his one car garage barreling up junk on an old wore out Atlas lathe.

Shawn

i certainly did not mean for my original post to sound like i was disrespecting the gunsmith who told me this. i'm sure he has built more mausers than i'll ever see. i had not heard that vz24 actions had any sort of heat treating issues before and was looking for some second opinions. plenty of those around here

anyway, thanks to everyone for the replies and information...bud

Bud

I don't think you are beinging disrespectfull at all for asking the question. Second opinions have saved lives in the medical field for sure and in the gun bussiness as well i would guess. Sometimes it takes third and fourth opinions to get the correct information.

Look at D'Arcy Echols coments in Vapodogs link:

quote:

The number of rifles I have had in my shop for some sort of repair or restoration that have set back is long indeed. This list would include the hallowed 98 square bridge actions, vz-24, 1909, 1908, and one FN in the white straight from the factory that I failed to check with the rockwell tester. I chambered the FN to 300 Win mag and it set back .015 in less than 200 rounds. It has since been hardened and to my knowledge has not move to the rear at all.Take it for what it's worth.

quote:

I have every 98 that I now use annealed dead soft, do 90% of the machine work that is required. Then it is sent in to be re-carborized as described and then finished up. Some 98 actions are probably OK to use as is the 1935 being one of them. But why take the chance and why waste all those end mills on an action that is glass hard on the surface or have to eat the repair when it shows up back in your hands.

I wold dare not say Mr. Echols is a kook that you need to steer clear of.

Shawn

Bluetick, did you see my CZ550 that David is making a lott for me? He is waiting on Jeffeosso and Gringo Cazador to rough out the stock blank and then he can go back to work on it. He is done with what he can do on the metal work until he finishes the stock. I can't wait to see it. Butch

Walsh's book says the Keunhausen is nuts with the heat treat.

I have a VZ24 that I lapped the lugs until I got 75% contact. I have a caliber with the same .470" Mauser case head as a 6.5-06, and I shoot stiff loads with short brass life. My headspace has never changed. I like that rifle better than my Rem700 or Win 70 pre 64 or Sav 110, or ...

I should warn, 3% of my 98 Mausers came with lug set back when I got them. So it CAN happen.

quote:

Also why you have to anneal the surface to drill and tap

I've never had to anneal a mauser to do this

I've drilled and tapped dozens of them also and the next one I anneal will be the first. Some are a little bit harder than others and you don't want to get to ham fisted with any of them but I've never had a problem with one. Jim

I have had some experience with MILSURP Mausers and have concluded that all I had were soft. The military Mausers were made of low carbon steel and were not hardened to any extent because of the low carbon content. They relied on their superior design to resist lug set-back as well as the relatively low pressure of military cartridges. The bolts, however, are universally hard and they have been case hardened, being made of the same low carbon steel. As anybody who has ever cut the military bolt handle off to replace it with a modern swept-back commercial handle knows, you have to get through the case hardening before the standard hack saw will cut. I usually did this by taking a Dremel parting wheel and scoring the root of the handle exposing the soft inner metal. Vapodog has listed a good source for heat treating Mauser actions. I have had thirteen of them done by this outfit and only one was warped to any extent. Before I sent them, I did all the alterations needed before hand, i.e, drilling and tapping, profiling the rear bridge, etc. After this has been done, you have the basis for a good sporting and don’t have to worry about what kind of NORMAL pressures the cartridge you are using will generate. If all you are going to use it for are mid 20th century rounds, with the possible exception of the .270WIN and .220 Swift (they both generate pressures in excess of 52,000 PSI), you will not have lug set-back.
After all is said and done, it might be better if you could purchase a modern commercial version of a ’98 like a Mark X or a Zastava and spend some time slicking it up. You wouldn’t have anymore money invested and I believe they all have a modern heat treat. If all you have is time and like to tinker, have at the MILSURP Mauser.

Masterrifle,
welcome to the forum.

I am certain you meant over 62kpsi, not 52k, as 52 is low pressure,in psi.

there's far more than just the 270 and 220 swift in factory pressure.. every (former) short mag does, as well as some .473 casehead stuff, not to mention all wsm/rum/wssm/rsuam stuff.

What's my point? loads of rounds are loaded to high pressure... it may be that 270 and 220 reloader drive them harder

jeffe

Jeffe

What about this issue of work hardening. I have a friend who had a soft mauser barreled in 25-06. After awhile he started getting hard extraction so he checked and sure enough he had lug recess setback. What he did was to use the same barrel, set back just a hair,and he then ran the reamer in to correct the chamer. He has now shot that rifle many many times since he set that barrel back, yet he has had no more problems with hard extraction.

That makes me think that maybe after a guy gets a bit of setback at some point it might stop setting back. One thing is for sure, and that is that those who say a rifle is unuseable after the recess has set back are incorrect.

Blueprinting is another neat "selling term"...Most Mauser have been "blueprinted" at the Mauser factory, they are all within specs that I have used, not so on some of todays factory guns...

The VZ24 is surface hardened and soft on the inside like most Mausers and only in certain loacations...Done this way by Paul himself so when one does blow it cracks the surface but the soft metal does not fragment and send flyin bits of steel in all directions ala M-70 Winchesters do...Mausers may puff up like a baloon, split open some, but they do not fragment...

Some of the better gunsmith say all Mausers should be taken down to soft and then brought back up to specs, this is what most refer to mistakenly as "re-hardened" or "hardened"...Others just as well known like Jack Belk tell me that is about like painting an aluminum barn....

I have done it both ways, and never had a problem with either way...I suspect most blow up are the result of that last nut behind the buttstock, and his hand loading practices.

I personally would not use an action that has set back, so I guess I am one of those to whom you refer..

You make it sound so simple but thats only half the story..you can set the barrel back as many times as you wish but the lug slots are still scarred and set back and your probably not getting complete contact...Most good smiths that I have talked to suggest a new bolt body or action, and thats not an overly expensive project...

I believe that at best the action, if your going to keep using it, will develope headspace again and again as it was probably soft to start with, so it should at least be taken down to soft and brought back up to specs..A $50 bill will take care of that.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I personally would not use an action that has set back, so I guess I am one of those to whom you refer..

You make it sound so simple but thats only half the story..you can set the barrel back as many times as you wish but the lug slots are still scarred and set back and your probably not getting complete contact...Most good smiths that I have talked to suggest a new bolt body or action, and thats not an overly expensive project...

I believe that at best the action, if your going to keep using it, will develope headspace again and again as it was probably soft to start with, so it should at least be taken down to soft and brought back up to specs..A $50 bill will take care of that.

what do you mean, not getting complete contact. It is precisely because of the contact that the seat are getting set back!

When you get set back it can be in the shape fo the lugs as an indention and that in effect gives you an uneven surface of two levels, therefore your just hanging on the edges so to speak...Hope I am clear on this...

Right on Ray! As usual.