I loaned a client a rifle this past week to use on his Mountain Lion hunt this week. Before we sent him into camp I took the gun out of the soft case and showed him how the safety worked and how light the trigger pull was. I put the gun back in the case along with the box of bullets. This is how I received it back. Besides being covered with rust the barrel is bent a good 20 degrees!!!!. I had this rifle built about 15 years ago on an Argetine Mauser action. I cant remember exactly but think it was a Shilen barrel. The caliber is 7mm 08. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anything else on the gun. No damage to the scope or stock. No one is able to tell me what might have happened to the gun in camp. Would this have to have been intentional?

Horse or 4 wheeler falling on it truck running it over. one would think that if it was done on purpose that there would be damage to the stock.

Was he using it as a climbing aide jammed the barrel in between some rocks and pulled on the stock

Your client can't tell you is the camp run by you and your staff can't tell you.

I once had a school bus driver tell me he didn't know how the light pole size dent happen to get into the back bumper of his bus. Must have been such a mind jarring experience that he forgot about it.

I am really surprised that that stock isn't damaged. it takes a bit of pressure to bend a rifle barrel.

Some one knows they just are not saying.

One could start a whole new thread on do you borrow out guns.

We will never know if it was intentional or not but it certainly was a major fubar. There is no way that could have happened and someone not known about it.
At the least they owe you for repairs or a new rifle. Totally irresponsible at the least, possibly malicious at the worst. Run over? Stepped on by a horse? wrapped around a tree? I suppose if you set it against a heater or something and then dropped but that is a stretch. No that is a fantasy. The fact that no one is talking tells me it was probably done intentionally. In my gut I would have to say intentional. If it wasn't why would no one tell the story of what happened? That kind of damage isn't something that could happen without someone seeing and knowing it. So, did anyone offer to pay for the rifle?

Well , we didn't have a pry bar !

Do I remember correctly that one of the M16 changes for a heavier barrel was due to using the rifle to open crates ??

It is a camp run by my partner. The Lion qouta in my permit area is full and we ran the hunt from his camp. It was a snowmobile camp no horses. He claimed he had it on the dog sled trailer right next to his gun. No wrecks with the snow machines. The only thing I can think of is the hunter had it in his tent and did something to it then. Stepped on it, take that back Stomped on it somehow between rocks? I was sick to my stomach when I saw it. I have shot a pile of game with this little gun as have my kids. I know a new barrel will fix it, but it is the point that it was a great gun in great shape before this!!!

The client should pay to make it right!

The M16 story is an urban legend; the real myth is that they changed the open end flash hider to closed end because solders were opening C ration cases by twisting the wire off the the flash hiders and loosening them. Actually, that one was probably done but that wasn't the reason they changed them. Actually, the A2 barrel is only bigger forward of he handguard; under it was still thin. Anyway, when I was a basic training company commander at Ft Knox, our mail clerk backed over a row of M16s in the parking lot and bent the barrels on a few of them. A report of survey made him pay for them. Idiot. Oh, yours? Not from stepping on it, driving over it with a smowmobile is more likely. You could try straightening it and see how it shoots.

I DO NOT LOAN TOOLS OR GUN FOR THIS REASON...and do it right, put on a new barrel on it.

I doubt it was done intentionally. But I also doubt that no one in the camp knows precisely how and when it occurred. Someone (and maybe several "someones") knows exactly what caused that unwanted "customization".)

The fact that no one is telling you is perfectly understandable. No one wants to catch the blame, scorn, and expense (both financially and in reduced respect) for their actions. That is human nature.

Like the FBI profilers do, you need to reason from the result and what the scene was like where it was done, to determine the identify of the 'Unsub', how it occurred, and why.

If you analyze the appearance of the rifle, it is PRETTY clear that the stock was probably not involved in doing the damage. The barrel was supported by SOMETHING(S) on both sides of the bow in the barrel, and considerable pressure or weight was exerted in between the two points of barrel support. It also appears unlikely the rifle was on the ground when it occurred....if it was, it is unlikely there would have been no support for the bent section at all, and the bend would not have been nearly so large.

That does suggest either it was a "mechanical accident" of some sort, or that it was indeed intentional. If the latter, there are all sorts of possible motives, but as a "crime scene investigator, my first area of inquiry would be...how did the hunt go? Did the "hunter" get his game? Or did he perhaps blame the guide for his not succeeding? Was the damage noted right at the end (perhaps the last night?) of the hunting trip?

And so on. Careful inquiry without at first pointing any fingers whatsoever can often lead to the truth.

Although I might not truly feel that way, I would appear to understand and sympathize with the possible "suspects"...saying things such as "I know how Accidents happen to even the best of men...", and citing an instance (either real or made up) of how I damaged a treasured belonging of someone else in the past, and how reluctant I was to tell them about it.

And, of course I would offer sympathy to "whoever" it might be.

Only after "someone" 'fessed-up', would I broach the subject of fiscal responsibility on their part.

I would also closely examine the barrel before "questioning" anyone. For instance, are there any scratches at either end of the bow on the outside of the arc? If so, maybe those scratches give a clue as to what the barrel was supported by. Scratches or other discolouration on the central inside of the bow in the barrel might yield 'clues' as to how the force was applied in the center of the bow.

And above all, make the questioning as casual as possible...probably over drinks at lunch or in the evening. People who are pushed into a defensive mode are unlikely to tell you anything you'll find enlightening.

I can't see how the bend could be put into it and yet there be no damage on the stock. Unless it is a very, very thin barrel?

I'd almost hazard a guess that the barrel and action have been removed from the stock and the thing bent. I suppose that you could tell be seeing how parallel the barrel lies in the forend.

It almost appears that there would have had to have to have been heat applied and then over the end of the muzzle a hollow tube as a "cheater" bar. Like on road wheel nut spanners.

It might have been run over but then would the metal not be marked?

Did the guy just hand it back to you without saying a word? Sounds negligent. I'd call him ASAP and give him a chance to make good on his responsibility to take care of the loaner. Not knowing what happened can be more annoying than the damage.

When I first saw the picture of the rifle I immediately thought it must have been horse, vehicle, or snow machine related.

I have seen guns damaged by all three, luckly never mine, inspite of some sno go "wrecks" I have been in.

Kinda strange that it did not damage the stock too. It must have happened while the gun was in the case. ??? Does the case show any signs of stress?

Did the client get a mountain lion? Was there any Drama in the camp?

quote:

I can't see how the bend could be put into it and yet there be no damage on the stock

Try and bend a barrel like that. It takes some serious effort or weight. I would have thought the stock would have split first.

Buddy, I'd be pissed. And for the client to just leave without offering to make up for it.....

probably a lot of alcohol involved!

I Had the Booking agent in Hungary ask the hunter and he claims he knew nothing of any damage to the gun. He did not get a lion ( first hunter in 3 years not to get a lion ). If he would have been that upset over his hunt he could have told me. Before he even booked I was confident enough that I offered he could come back next year at half price if he didn't kill a cat. I really am having a hard time believing it was done intentionally but the fact that it is the only damage ( besides the rust) the barrel where it leaves the stock is still free floating and no marks on the barrel at all has me puzzled. Even if the barrel was placed in a whole and the gun used as a lever i would think the grip area on the stock would break first. I guess it has been an expensive lesson.

Someone here looking at thought that maybe it was taken out of the stock to be bent like it is. There is no discoloration so I don.t think heat was applied to it. It isn't a heavy barrel but not super thin. I would say the steel is the same thickness as my other guns. Unsolved mystery!!!

quote:

the hunter and he claims he knew nothing of any damage to the gun

There is no way that someone doesn't know what happened. That didn't happen because it was leaned against the wall. Something major happened and someone would know.

I doubt you could bend the barrel like that by steping (or stomping) on it. I assume there are no marks on the barrel to suggest it was used to pry someting or jammed between two rocks or something like that? Also strange that the stock is not damaged. How do the stock screws and scope look?

I'd assume that a vehicle was involved whilst the rifle was cased if there are no telltale marks.

I had someone put a shotgun in the shade of my truck (i.e. in front of the wheel, under the bumper) at a 3-gun shoot once. I drove over it. At the time everyone seemed really friendly waving and all as I started up to move off... The ground was sandy and flat. The shotgun was miraculously not damaged.

These things happen. There is always some negligence involved, but it happens nonetheless.

Been thinking a bit more about what your partner told you....have you looked at the trailer your rifle was on? Has he shown you exactly where your rifle and his rifle were placed? What ELSE was loaded onto the trailer and exactly how was the "Else" anchored? Are there any marks on the inside of the trailer showing where something might have slid across the floor and struck your gun and one side or end of the trailer?

(The trailer and its tractor need not have been in any kind of accident to have done that...only needed to be loaded incorrectly with some or all the gear mot properly secured and come to a sudden stop or hit a big bump.)

Does the trailer have steel poles supporting its sides? How about the tailgate and front?

My first guess would be a sliding cooler full of food and/or beverages may have slid across the trailer floor and nailed your rifle barrel between two sturdy parts of the trailer. A rounded corner of a heavy plastic cooler would be a very effective tool for creating that kind of bend without scuffing the barrel....especially if the rifle was in a soft case.

But, if you nose around and ask the right questions (which you should list before asking)
you can likely find out just what in tarnation is likely to have occurred and proceed from there.

(As an afterthought, you might want to take your rifle to the trailer and lay it against the sides/ends, to see if the ends of the bow just happen to be where there are some vertical supports in the trailer.) If it happens to be a close to perfect fit, then you probably know what happened.

I can't imagine anything but it being run over with some unlucky angles involved. It takes some serious force to bend a barrel like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Hntnhrd:
I loaned a client a rifle this past week to use on his Mountain Lion hunt this week. Before we sent him into camp I took the gun out of the soft case and showed him how the safety worked and how light the trigger pull was. I put the gun back in the case along with the box of bullets. This is how I received it back. Besides being covered with rust the barrel is bent a good 20 degrees!!!!. I had this rifle built about 15 years ago on an Argetine Mauser action. I cant remember exactly but think it was a Shilen barrel. The caliber is 7mm 08. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anything else on the gun. No damage to the scope or stock. No one is able to tell me what might have happened to the gun in camp. Would this have to have been intentional?

"He claimed he had it on the dog sled trailer right next to his gun."

Ok, it was on a trailer next to another gun-allegedly. Since it is a trailer, I presume it was towed behind a vehicle. I also presume snow mobile trailers might have slatted floors to allow snow and water to fall through. They also may have open side rails. Is it possible the gun could have been jarred, moved, and the muzzle protruded from the floor or side rail? Envisioning that, it is not hard to imagine the muzzle could have been supported on a trailer frame member at the bend and the muzzle came into contact with a tree, tree stump or other object.If it was in a soft gun case, the case may have come into contact with wet snow under the trailer and become soaked with water/salt water. When the truck arrived at camp, the guide or client could have unloaded the truck and not noticed the bent barrel inside the gun case. Perhaps the gun was not used and brought back to camp in the wet case until you noticed it. Or,when it was opened, the barrel was noticed to be bent and rusted so it was zipped back up. I would ask if the gun was used in the hunt to determine at what point the damage occurred. It could also have been placed across a rack on the snowmobile and have struck a tree or other object. It appears to have taken a greater force than a normal human could muster.

I seriously doubt it was intentional.

It must have gotten jammed between the the rock and a hard place because you are talking tons of force to do that. tons.

That said you need to have a loan agreement basically stating they are required to return said item in as issued condition.

I for one, if it were me would tell you to get it fixed an send me the bill.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:

It must have gotten jammed between the the rock and a hard place because you are talking tons of force to do that. tons.

I'm glad that someone with real knowledge on the subject has weighed in. I know that I have bent a lot of pry bars, but it just seems like barrel steel is too tough to do that with human force alone.

As much as it stinks, it seems that a rebarrel is in order(out of your pocket, I'm afraid).

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:

It must have gotten jammed between the the rock and a hard place because you are talking tons of force to do that. tons.

I'm glad that someone with real knowledge on the subject has weighed in. I know that I have bent a lot of pry bars, but it just seems like barrel steel is too tough to do that with human force alone.

As much as it stinks, it seems that a rebarrel is in order(out of your pocket, I'm afraid).

It can be done buy hand. wedge that suck in someplace tight grab the stock and pull but to get that sharp of a bend?? and no damage to the stock.

That would take a tremendous amount of force. but not impossible and not as hard as you think. Just with zero damage to the stock thats hard to do.

I'm willing to bet the gun in or out of the case go bounced around to the point where the barrel was hanging outside the trailer and at 20 MPH or more slammed into a tree. a good swift hit like that would produce a very sharp bend. I bet you thee is damage to the stock you just have not found it yet. I bet you there is a minimum of a few new dings in the wood.

I would want to see a few good pictures of the muzzle and the outside of the barrel on the outside of the bend, there has to be a witness mark on it where it made contact. a good look at the case. the evidence is there.

Looks exactly like a rifle we had that was set between the cab and the bed of a pickup truck, butt on the ground. Someone moved the truck, little or no stock damage.

And yet another possibility...what does your partner carry his snowmobile fuel supply in?

If it is some kind of barrel (drum), I'd check the inside of the curve in the barrel against the outside curve of the drum. A cooler full of food might not be heavy enough to cause that curve but a barrel or drum of fuel sure as heck would be, and it wouldn't take much speed to give it enough. momentum and energy to do the job. Its weight would also mean momentum would make it very prone to sliding across the trailer floor when the snowmobile slowed suddenly if it was not very well secured.

That doesn't mean that your partner made the causitive error, even though the final responsibility for delivering the rifle back to you in sound shape is his.

Did his "dude" (client) ever refuel the snowmobile? Maybe he was trying to help out around camp and his good intentions led to results which were not at all desirable.

greenhorn grabbed stock, turned a corner, pulledtugged, and softcase protected finish.. he knew it happened

That has happened to several of my golf clubs.

I know who did it.

It was intentional.

He knows he did it.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
That has happened to several of my golf clubs.

I know who did it.

It was intentional.

He knows he did it.

you play golf with Bill Murray??

Reminds me of an my first M16 (not an A1 mind you) after I got a little excited during bayonet drills early in my military career, Cost me $26.10 out of my pay the next month. Did the client perhaps borrow a bayonet also?

I did that to a remington 270 by hitting it against a tree like a baseball bat.

My guess is it got ran over by the snowmachine or something similar.

I know a guy who did something similar to his rifle. He laid the gun against his pickup and placed the barrel in the space between the back of the cab and the pickup bed to stop it from sliding off the truck. Forgot about the rifle and drove off. The result was similar to your photo.