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Let's say I have a model 70 or a CZ 550 and a blank of wood. I want to keep costs down on this project since I have to support a bad habit of hunting and have two in college. I would like to transform said block of wood into a usable handle for aformentioned action. It will not have to be a work of art and I have an unlimited amount of years to play with it. I understand that CNC makes getting the blank "roughed in" is an easy way to get in the ballpark. First question is who and where to get the CNC done? How about a drop box? Ideas? "D" | ||
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A lot depends on how much you want to spend, what your basic skills in wood working and carving are now, and realistically how much patience you've got? If you're willing to spend a bit to start, and then finish the rest, find someone in your area (or somewhere you can ship to) who has a decent duplicator and a pattern you can live with. Have a good look at his work and how much you are going to have to do to finish the stock. Only you can determine if you have the skills and patience to do the work to fit and finish the stock. I'm assuming you can get a stock semi-inletted by this person for around $125-150 or so. If you intend to use a drop magazine, you may need to get it ahead of time so the duplicator can cut the inlet for it properly. Other things like flush sling swivel studs, and other custom touches also need to be acquired ahead of time so the duplicator can make the proper mortise cuts for them. If you have lots of patience, some wood working skills, and a place to work without distractions, you could buy Alvin Linden's book "Restocking the Rifle" and David Westbrook's book "Professional Stockmaking" and learn how to do it yourself. Don't expect to save any money going this route the first couple of stocks. First, the books are expensive at $30-60 each, used, since they aren't in print any more. Second, you'll need to buy new tools to do the basics and if you're like most of us you'll buy more tools to make things easier. If you have some woodworking experience, this can be done and probably is the most rewarding method of all. One thing is certain, you've come to the right place. You'll have no end of help here when you get started and need questions answered. I've learned tons of interesting things here and I've just completed my second carved-from-scratch stock and starting on my third. Before this I only had the confidence to do semi-inlet stocks, which was a very good learning experience in its own right. Either way, don't be surprised if you end up doing way more than one stock.  - Sheister | |||
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You can expect to pay about $150 to $300 for a stock turned on either a CNC or a machine like a Hoenig...depending on who does the work..I have mine done on a CNC by Brockman who sends it to someone that does that work, but only for certain models...The rest I send wood and pattern stock to a fellow in Boise that does top work, but doesn't want any more business,and requested that I not send referals, so I will not name him...but lots of good smiths around that do this work..If time is of essence I will just drill and band saw and grab a cabinet rasp as it takes so long to get them returned these days... | |||
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D Hunter, I would not trust anyones CNC program to inlet a blank of mine. The only duplicator service that I use, employs someone skilled in the use of a Hoenig duplicator. The best way to approach it is to make your own pattern and glass your barreled action into it. If you want a drop box, buy the box and get formed into the pattern. You can't do this as an after thought down the road. You can take your time creating the pattern but if you don't know how to do it you might be better off having someone send you a 95% of one you like and adapt and bed it to your barreled action. That way you can take your time before you even buy the blank. Some of the skills that come with inletting take time and experience and even if you decide to take a long time to do this work, that does not guarantee that it will be done without mistakes. In fact it gives you more time to make them. Keep us informed as you get started. Ask questions when you need some specific advice and good luck. | |||
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Quote: Come on, It can't matter how or with what machine it's 99% operator for manual and 99% for programmers and CNC. I'm not trying to pick a fight here but it's kind of insulting to those of us that know how to make a stock gap free with the aid of CNC inletting. YOU CAN'T DO IT ALL WITH THE CNC OR A HOENIG. Unless you're a blind man. gunmaker | |||
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gunmaker, I did not say that to start a fight or insult anyone who uses one and apologize if you took it that way. I have used a hoenig on occasion that belonged to an old friend. His name was Ray Price. Ray taught me to run his machine. "Taught" is an overglamorization of my use and I certainly am not an expert with it but one of the thing he said that stuck in my mind was that you had to watch for certain grain directiions and at times he cut in the opposite direction, if only for a short distance. I have seen him do that on a number of occasions. He had a touch with the machine and knew when to back off. A CNC operation is not going to do that unless you are watching it like a hawk and have the ability to make corrections. I am not talking about gaps. I was also talking about using universal programing to shape stocks. If you want to program the machine for the particular action or pattern, all well and good but not haveing a human touch can still create problems if you dont know what you are doing. That is not the concept I have of CNC. Enlighten me if there is something in CNC to correct for instances such as this. Can that machine know when to take a light cut? I have seen Midways CNC stocks and they were nothing I would use. I am sure they made them "drop in" with slop and that machine I assume could do much better work. It likely did exactly what was asked of it. I also am not even intimating that it is all done with either of those machines. None of them will cut square corner plunge cuts. There is always hand work even on the best of them and that is to be expected. | |||
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Customstox  You are correct about the inability of the CNC to do anything other than what it is told. The only way for the CNC to "watch" out for poor grain structure is for the operator to slow the feed rate down in a spot that looks iffy. It is up to the programmer to understand from trial and error and hopefully learn from their mistakes. I sure wouldn't want any mistakes on a fine piece of english. There are thousands of talented CNC machinists/programmers but very few know half as much about gunstocks as you. I've never seen a Midway stock and have little interest in working on one, but I assume the person that programmed the Midway stock can't make a rifle look as nice as the ones I've seen on your web site. It would be hard to convince a CNC guy about the difficulty involved with machining a $2000 chunk of JRegia. Honestly I was only "insulted" in a Monty Python humorus way. I just wanted to point out the possibility of a perfect inlet and great shape that can be "roughed" out on a CNC and finished by hand. Most of the rifles on my web site are roughed out on a CNC and finished by hand. I also wanted to point out the possibility that while the Honeig machine may be top of the line, I'm sure a semi inlet off a different brand of duplicator run by an individual who knows what he is doing would be perfectly acceptable to any qualified stockmaker. The accuracy talked about on this board when referring about a semi inlet that has been run with a Honeig seems to give too many people that would like to build a stock for the first time the impression that there is very little finish work to do. As you know nothing could be further from the truth. gunmaker http://users.elknet.net/chico | |||
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Quote: Don't mean to rain on this parade, but the answer is YES, you can cut square corners on a CNC. A CNC can be setup to use a solid highspeed or tool steel bit, with the spindle oriented, and ran with a subprogram for reciprocating the spindle up an down as it takes incremental notches out of your workpiece in x and or y axis'. The limit to what can be done with CNC is merely in the mind of the programmer. I've broached many parts with CNC mills and lathes using a similiar method, and it is quite fast, even in mild steels and stainless, let alone wood. Try as one might, it's impossible to acheive the accuracy with a manual duplicator, or by hand that can be obtained with CNC. The biggest problem that most people get into with using CNC, is that they try to make everything a drop in for all the various different kinds of parts that are being made out there....Well, these parts vary, sometimes a lot, so in order to have the full package as it should be, you need to be making all the pieces to the puzzle, not just the stock. We CNC inlet stocks to our bottom metal, but we're also not guessing as to what the dimensions are of the bottom metal....We merely make a mirror image of the program that replicates the precise pocket to match. When running these, I'll adjust my tool offsetts out in the controller to leave more material than necessary....say about .015" per side, sometimes less. After I run the first one, I do a quick check in the the critical areas, then I make a another slight offset, so as to account for tool deflection, and run it again. After that, I begin making passes with only about .001" adjustments until the bottom metal just barely presses in. I leave the bottom metal sitting about .020 or more below the stock, depending on the bedding job that is done, so that I can allow for glass, and to finish the stock down to meet the bottom metal. The results are better than one would ever achieve with conventional tools. I truely enjoy looking at hand inletted stocks that are done well, but I've yet to see my first that didn't have some sort of imperfections in them....Not to say that they weren't top notch, but there were errors. That's something I can't say about my CNC.  | |||
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Gunmaker, I am happier to find another Monty Python fan.  The Midway stocks (Actually Reinhardt Fajen) I saw were brought to the guild show by Larry Potterfield in the early nineties. He had built a run of inlets for Winchester and they wanted stocks that were of a very uniform grade. He ended up with some very nice English walnut stocks that he also cut for a cartridge trap. The inletting was very precise and although intended for the cartridge trap was a fair bit oversize. The other stocks I have seen were done on his vertical CNC profilers. My experience to them is somewhat limited. If a person can be overseeing the operation and guiding it so to speak then my fears are most likely unnecessary. The problem I have is finding someone who I trust to do inletting. I have found one or two now. You are right about good operators on other machines. I have heard very good things about Dennis Olson and I believe he uses a Dakota. I have had two stocks done on a Dakota and was very unimpressed but I do know it was all operator error in one case and I suspect boredom on the other. I am not afraid of that machine, just those operators. The one thing I know about the Hoenig is how rigid the set up become with the radial clamps. That is certainly a big part of the reason of the accuracy results from them. | |||
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Matt, I was talking about plunge cuts. I imagine you can orient the cutter at 90 degrees to the plunge. Have not seen it done. I know it takes very little time to square up the corners on my bench. I do not need, nor do I want all of the work to be done on a machine. Are you guys building stocks now, or are you just talking metaphorically. And are you telling me that you are CNCing blanks and they are without errors??? Post some pictures of them. I am sure we would like to see them. BTW, if you want to see some hand inletting that is free from flaws, take a trip to Reno one year. You will see plenty of it. | |||
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I've done many stocks on the CNC, but not from a blank, merely doing the underneath for now, at least until we have our actions to pattern by on the top side. Receivers available today vary too much to get it right off the machine. I've taken the trip to Reno a few times, and I stand by my statements....I'm not saying it's not damn good, but there are none that I've seen that are "free from flaws".....course, I'm pretty picky. You were told right.....we don't have a draft on our bottom metal, but will be offering that soon with our Oberndorf-style bottom metal in the near future. | |||
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Matt, Quote: I don't know who you are trying to fool with that statement but I am not buying it. It is pure bull shit. | |||
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Quote: I'm sorry Chic if you don't agree, but that's your prerogative I suppose. It is impossible for a "man" to inlet and finish a stock without error. To presume that one could, is not only absurd, but surprises me coming from someone with your experience in that field. I would have to assume that you have misinterpreted what I meant, and I am in no way saying that the work of the guild, or any other fine stock maker isn't something that I would be proud to own, but you can't expect anyone to believe that any human can do that kind of work without some kind of mismatch, or slight imperfection....It's what makes us human. You of all people should understand that from doing as much stock work as you've done. Errors happen, but as you perfect the art, they are minimized significantly, so much so that the average, or even above average person cannot detect them, but it doesn't mean that they don't exist. I am far from trying to bullshit anyone, just merely stating facts based on common sense and experience. Lighten up a little Chic.....Ever heard of the term "nobodys perfect"? | |||
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Matt, If you ever came to the show I could walk you over to a number of tables, Steve Heilmans for one. And you can look it over and show me where you see an error. I build stocks for a living and I can tell you that you will not see an error or a mistake on one of his. That is not to say he has not made one. The test of a crafstman is to fix those errors so they are "invisible'. Sometimes it is in the wood and sometimes a human error. Steve is not the only one, there are a host of them there and you will not be able to see those errors that you profess to have witnessed. If you want a laundry list of stockmakers who do flawless (at least to the eye - including yours) I could offer some. I am not included in that list by my own admission. So lighten up? I did already, you were going to get it a lot worse than what I gave. I have cut yous slack before when you made bs statements but this one was just too far removed from reality. And as far as experience? What do you have? How many stocks have you built? Okay you work for you dad building bottom metal. I stand by what I said. "Who are you trying to fool" | |||
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The difference between a pro and an amateur is that the pro knows how to hide his mistakes! Seriously, I think Matt's comments are right on the money because he points out that which ever system one chooses to use the skill of the human behind the tool is what determines the outcome. Whether that tool is a hand held chisel or a CNC router makes little difference if the human behind it isn't a real craftsman with a hell of allot of experience. I think anyone that likes to "play" with gunsmithing should try making at least one stock from a blank just for the hell of it. If nothing else it certainly does increase your vocabulary!!! Having tried this myself I would only make one suggestion. If you choose to do it by "hand" DO NOT use any "hand-held" power tools or your vocabulary will REALLY increase! The handiest tools you can buy if you want to try starting from a blank are a 24 inch Jointer Plane (for squaring up the blank) and Stanley #49 and #50 pattern makers rasps for shaping. The other skill to practice is the tried and true "4,8,16,32" method of turning square material into rounded material so the opposite sides of your stock have matching contours. It should go without saying that your "practice" should be done on something a little cheaper than a $2,000.00 piece of figured walnut. Rick | |||
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Quote: This to me, does not imply that the "mistakes" or "flaws" were fixed. I read this as obvious mistakes or flaws visible in the work. That scores a 10 on my bullshitometer. Especially from the guys like Heilmann or Goudy and a HOST of others. There is no way in hell they would have a rifle on their table that had an obvious flaw. I also believe that if a mistake or flaw is fixed and undetectable then its no longer a mistake. | |||
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Quote: Chic, I fail to see what you're so riled up about when all I'm doing is pointing out the obvious that falls in the category of common sense. I'm glad you brought up Steve in this discussion because he was the one that I was thinking of during this seemlingly strange arguement. His work is without question topshelf, perhaps the best at the show IMO. I make a habit of hitting his booth first off. His use of extended tangs and fine metal work are something to behold, as well as his execution of fine inletting and stock design. With all that said, Steve doesn't wear sandles the last time I checked, nor do they talk about him in the "good book", so his work is not perfect, just close, very very close. Please enlighten me as to "bs statements" that I've made on this forum, or any other. I don't talk about things I don't know, and try to enlighten others about the things that I do. I don't proclaim to be a "custom stockmaker", yet I've been working on stocks that required inletting, stocks from blanks, glass bedding, and final finishing since I was 8. I grew up in a gunsmith shop, apprentcing under my father who's been building custom rifles, and doing precision machining for the last 48 years. I've machined parts so small that you had to use a microscope to inspect them, and so large that it took a overhead crane to move it on to the machine. I've held tolearances of +/-.000075 on lathes and mills for companies such as Allied Signal, Boeing, McDonnel Douglas, and host of other companies. I've ran virtually every kind of manual machine equipment available, as well as their CNC counterparts. I do my own engineering and cadd work with the use of Solidworks, Surfcam, Mastercam, Camworks, and Virtual Gibbs. I can program in over 5 different program languages, and grind my own tools that are suitable for CNC work. And yes Chic, I build bottom metal with my father, and have been doing so as a partnership since 1992. My experience in this field is well over 15 years plus. I'll make a deal with you Chic....you pick out the best stock and action work you can find that is "free of flaws", I'll pay you $500.00 if I can't find at least 3, then anything over that, you pay me $100.00 per each one that is detected. I don't know what you'll want to set the maximum at considering we'll be in Reno and you'll probably want to conserve your gambling money, but I'll let you pick that number. Now flame away with your personal attack of my opinion. As insulting as you've been so far, this ought to be a doozy. | |||
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Quote:Quote: I never said anything about an "obvious flaw". If it was obvious, they'd have no business being in the guild, but that is certainly not the case with the rifles that are showcased there every year. I apologize if stepped on any toes, but I guess there's a lot of stockmakers who walk on water on the weekends. Every contour is perfect, and every wood-to-metal fit is perfect as well....I was mistaken. | |||
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You can't tell me that a stock produced on a CNC machine will have no flaws. First off, a human is still programming that machine. Secondly, unlike a human stockmaker, if there is a flaw, whether by program or lets say during the cutting process, the machine cannot "fix" it. Lastly, even if the program were perfect, tools break, wear, dull. These affect the outcome and again the machine will not go back and fix these errors. | |||
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I think the argument here is what can be achieved as a practcal best case for each, not the relative probabilities for error you describe, Zach. | |||
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triggergaurd, do you have any pictures of some of your stocks done on CNC machines or by hand. I have seen work by some of the guys that post here and its quite good, but I am just a hobbiest and by no means a judge. | |||
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Matt, More later but just a comment or two and a question. Your experience regarding CADD and engineering is irrelevant to being able to detect gun stock flaws. You would just as well have been driving a bus. It is an impressive resume if you are looking to do machine work and I am sure you are very capable in that area. I also did not infer that any of these guys are perfect and stated that there are likely errors but they are not visible. Your statement that what you pointed out falls in the category of common sense is without merit. My comment about the bs all along was that you with your experience in stockmaking or that of any seasoned and professonal stockmaker you would not be able to detect any flaws. Your what I would consider rather tactless comment regarding Steve Heilman wearing sandals leads me to believe you haven't been to his booth or if you have, you have never met him. Can you tell me what it is about Steve that would make me say that? Hopefully you can correct this suspicion relative to your comment. | |||
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Quote: If the fact that Steve is unfortunately in a wheelchair because of his paralasis, it was not meant in any way shape or form to be derogatory, and I have the utmost respect for the man and his abilities. I would be proud as hell to own a firearm he constructed. As far as my expertise in stockmaking, I have less than your typical stockmaker, but I have a vast amount more experience when it comes to dealing with things in precision, which more than qualifies me to make judgement on anyone's work that I see errors in, including my own. I'll be able to post some pics of some inletting work hopefully tommorow. | |||
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Quote: Tguard I'm sure by your machining and drafting background you are well aware of the tolerances applied to different parts. If a part is made to print within the specified tolerance it is a perfect part. It does not matter if it is near the high or low end of the applied tolerance. Only when it exceeds the tolerance is it then reasonable to call it a imperfect part. When you speak of inletting by hand not being good enough to call perfect then you need to have a better understanding of the tolerance as it is applied to the perfect inlet. I have stocked hundereds of rifles for Dakota, most of them were off a CNC inlet and required an average of an hour or two to hand inlet to the tolerance I implied to the stock shop during my supervisory position there. There were some that did not fit the tolerance and were rejected due to a large variety of problems, usually due to the metalwork not fitting MY tolerance before arriving at the stock shop. As for high quality custom rifle tolerance, I did take apart a 270win on a FN Mauser stocked by Fisher with metalwork by Burgess and evgraving, I think, by Kaye. It was one of Don Allen's personal rifles that just happened to be laying around after hours. After inspecting for gaps and not finding any I removed the guard screws and removed barreled action. I was so impressed at the ease of it's removal I had to fit it back and remove it a few times just to be sure. I then flipped it over and prepared myself to tug at the floormetal. It too extracted so effortlessly I had to repeat the procedure. I then assured my self I would be finding flaws inside the inletting not visable to the assembeled rifle. After turning on both lights at my bench and taking about 10 minutes I was somewhat dissapointed in not finding any. Thinking that there HAD to be a flaw somewhere I removed the buttplate as well and I still could not find any flaws. I called my buddy over and had him look at the perfection in the metal and wood fit and he as well knew he could find some flaws. After 5 minutes or so he was also "dissapointed". He closely watched as I assembeled the rifle and was very surprised at the ease of assembly. There was no creaking as the guard screws were tightened and when checking the forend pressure it was also silent. The screw holes for the buttplate had no chips out of them and the threads were a perfect match without flaws for the screws. After it was back in shooting form I noticed my face was sore from grinning from ear to ear. I now had new goals for my own custom work. Norma Allen didn't want me spending any more time on Dakota guns than I already did. Even my personal record of inleting, shaping and glassing nine Dakota's in a week wasn't fast enough for her, but they were within tolerance. It is possible to achieve perfection using hand tools. Now for answering the origional question at the top of this thread. I think if you have the time and wish to really learn something about stockmaking then build it from a blank and forget about getting a semi inlet of any kind. When you are finished you will have much more knowledge about the process and really know what to look for in future projects. Besides that you will be proud of your work and should be. Few people can stock a rifle from a semi inlet but even fewer can do this from a blank! Don't forget to take pictures along the way. gumaker | |||
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Matt, You cleared up what I was thinking, sorry for that misunderstanding. I am still not convinced, in the least, that you see an ability that every gunmaker down there does not in seeing errors and no amount of you showing me your inletting will convince me otherwise nor does it show in my mind that you have any abilities to see what isnt there. Your expertise in precision is based on measurements. Certainly you can not see these +/-.00005" measurements by eye and having machinery capable of that does not give you any gifts either. Sorry but your arguments are not convincing me. | |||
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I am not sure I know you personally and do not try to critisize your abilities, but I do take exception to your comment about the accuracy that went into the inletting of a Dakota. We all know they are roughed out on a CNC, and then finished by hand as you describe. My experience when working on a few of them in the shop tells me otherwise. How many of us have observed the glass bedding compound along the barrel line and action line to make up for really close inletting. Believe me, it is there and is the reason the Dakota rifle is not a "custom', only a semi-custom. By the way, I understand Norma is no longer in charge. | |||
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Hi Guys, Maybe I'm missing somethig here, but if this man is only wanting to make ONE stock for himself, the most obvious answer is to use nothing but hand tools and make what he wants. CNC and panagraphs are best for makeing lots of stocks, but you don't need any machine to make only one stock I make guns for a living, and I seldom use a a pangraphed stock. I do them by hand Try it! It's not that hard to do. Everyone seems afraid to try. Just be very careful with your primary layout, and You'll be fine. DON'T get in a hurry, and You'll find You can inlet and shape a stock from a blank in only about 20 hours Just my thoughts | |||
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Jim You are correct. A Dakota is not a true custom rifle and should not have the same tolerance as fine custom work. If you have seen many Dakota rifles you know there are some nice ones and some you wouldn't own for half price. I thought I tried to point out in my post that there is a large difference between real custom and Dakota production. I guess I was just irked by someone saying nothing done by hand is perfect and I tried to explain that perfection has a tolerance. A perfect Dakota will NEVER be on the same level as the Fisher/Burgess 270 I took apart. It should not be expected by a customer or anyone else in the guntrade to be on that same level. I thought I worked for the customer not Norma and that really pissed her off. Even the "perfectly" inlet Dakotas will not be so perfect looking when you pull the metal work out. How about a perfect pre64 m70? That would be on a different level of precision as well. I've seen some sloppy ones and some better ones. gunmaker  | |||
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If I may, I would like to pose a question based upon what You Professional folks have posted. when a person is paying $2000-$5000 for a custom stock, just what level of precision and perfection is he or she allowed to expect? And who makes the decision as to whether the person will have to accept the stock from the maker if the buyer claims they detect what they believe to be a flaw and the stockmaker says its not? Thank you. Blue | ||
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I am not a professional stock maker...but I can guar-en-damn-tee ya that I would work out all them particulars way before I handed anybody five grand for anything! Ask to see his work and have him point out what he considers to be those little touches that makes his work worth that kind of money. If he ain't willing to do that go elsewhere. Perhaps it might be helpful for you if some of the professional stock makers on here can describe what they consider to be "flaws." Rick | |||
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Matt, If you can turn out stocks on a CNC more perfect than Heilmann's, you really should give-up your day job. You'd be clearing $3,000 a copy instead of just a few bucks on each floorplate you can produce. It would seem to me that achieving +/- .000000005 tolerances (or whatever the fine measurement was) in a stock would be impossible for the medium (wood) is not "perfect" or even consistent. I've never seen machine-cut anything that approaches the fitting of a hand-inletted stock turned out by one of the masters. I have a few hand-crafted firearms and have inspected them with a magnifying glass and a critical eye. They may not be "perfect" but, as the song says, they're close enough to perfect for me. If a machine could do a better job, I'd like to see it. Not to belabor the point but after you turn out a few perfect gunstocks you might crank out a few of these on your CNC machine.  Should be a piece of cake to improve on this hand-carved thing. Some have complained David's hands are too large for his body, you might program in a correction for this imperfection. I'll take the first two copies. | |||
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There are three major flaws with triggerguards reasoning. 1. Undrafted metal is simply wrong for going into and out of wood. It must be drafted to get a good fit on the outside and still be able to easily remove it. (How can you even sell undrafted bottom metal?) 2. Wood tolerances are very different than metal. To inlet wood to precisely match the metal is flawed because even the most perfectly stable stick is likely to move a bit when relieved of external stress. 3. CNCing a bottom metal inlet from an altered metal profile has absolutely nothing to do with making a stock, nor does precision machining have anything to do with gunmaking. I've yet to meet one man who has the talents to do the programming and precise CNC machining coupled with the handwork experience to make a stock like Fisher or metalwork like Burgess. And from what I read, it isn't you Matt. I don't think Blackburn would waste his time trying to come up with a method to machine wood to fit his bottom metal. He knows what great stockmaking is, having worked with great stockmakers for decades. | ||
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I guess the comments about David's hands being too large blows the hell out of the old saying about "big hands" equaling a "big........" Perhaps this ongoing argument over "perfection" might benefit from a dose of common sense (which according to Will Rodgers, ain't all that common!) I am neither a professional wood worker nor a professional machinist but does the term "tolerances" ring a bell with anyone? I have yet to see manufacturing specs for anything that did not allow for "acceptable" tolerances for the finished product. If the manufacturing process could be "perfect" there would be no need for the term "acceptable tolerances." They would have "absolutes" that could not be deviated from to any degree. Is it not logical to assume that any tool (hand held or otherwise) and every measurement device was also produced within "acceptable tolerances?" If that is the case then each tool will have a built in limiting factor as to it's accuracy and consistency. The physical properties of both wood and steel, let alone human beings, precludes anything made from or by either ever being "perfect" in the literal sense. Even if it were possible to create the "perfect" mating of metal and wood in a rifle the first time you fired it things would change to some degree...as would the first time the temperature or humidity changed. Perfection is a wonderful thing to strive for...but only with the full realization that "close" is all a human can ever expect to achieve. Rick | |||
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Quote: He doesnt tell you there is no draft until you have bought it and wonder what on earth is going on with your inletting.....you start questioning your abilities and then all of a sudden it hits you. I never even checked for a draft......I assumed.......well you know what they say about assuming things. Wont happen again. | |||
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For the stoopid of us out here like me, what is draft? I'm ganna take a stab and say perhaps a slight taper? I noted the comment about the bottom metal sliding out of the stock. Wish mine did that. How should the bottom metal be fitted to a stock, especially on a mauser? Thanks! | |||
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Good guess Zach...go to the head of the class! Now...lets start a discussion about how "perfect" those drafts have to be to pass muster! Rick | |||
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I guess I sure stirred up the proverbial "hornet's nest" by implying that a $100,000 computer-controlled milling machine could manufacture a part more precisely than a man with some chisels and a magnifying glass. I am sorry If I've given the impression that I'm not thoroughly astonished at the abilities that some stockmakers possess when it comes to inletting stocks, and that I wish I had those same abilities to perform those operations by hand myself, but I do not. Anyone who can take a block of wood and turn it into a masterpiece is not just a craftsman, but a true artist who I give my deepest admiration and respect for. I guess one of my biggest questions is, how many of you who without witnessing what I'm talking about have ever even been in the same room as a CNC, let alone ran one, or seen it making parts???? I'm not talking about toys, but precision machine tools in a tool and die shop, production, or job shop enviornment. Ask any journeyman machinist just how close they can detect errors in parts by eye or feel. The response you'll get will astonish you, so I'll wait to see if any of you follow up on this. Your eye can be a very accurate measuring instrument when it's been properly trained by seeing too parts together that are different dimensionally, but still very very close. The feel that you use on a particular measuring instrument can determine whether or not the dimension you just measured was within print specifications, or out of tolearance. I can hand off one set of mics to three different people and ask them to measure a part, and get three different answers to what the dimension is. The right answer comes from the guy with the most experience and knowledge about why he's getting the measurement that he is. I thought many times about just stopping this whole arguement as it has turned in to be, but it surprises me when I've got people telling me what I "didn't see" when they weren't there, and have virtually no idea as to the capabilities of the equipment that I run on a daily basis, let alone the way they react on the machining of wood, steel, or anything else. Furthermore, I'm told that my reasoning is "flawed" because of things I guess they assumed I'd never heard of, such as tool deflection, tool wear, material properties, and machiniabilty of different materials. Fortunately, I'm just a little educated on those matters, and how they apply to these exact circumstances, namely because I've already done it. That, I would have thought, would have been a little self-explanatory after I described in detail the process that I use for performing the inletting process, but alas I have been misquoted for tolearance, technique, and experience. Chic mentioned that he wouldn't trust anyone to inlet a stock on a CNC because it couldn't be done as accurately as being done by hand. That is his judgement call, and he has every right to it considering what he'd been exposed too thus far. I'm trying too fool anyone here that just because you have a CNC you can make a perfect part. To say that would be quite foolish. If anyone has noticed, we don't advertise this service, therefore, I'm not trying to drum up business by mentioning the technique, just merely educating those who wish to open their minds a little and listen to a technique that produces results as good or better than their own with much less effort and considerably more consistency. The stocks that I've CNC inletted thus far have mostly been Rutland laminates, McMillan Fiberglass, Brown Precision, and HS Precision stocks, however I've had a couple of Bastogne stocks on the machine as well as some Winchester Custom shop English stocks as well. The reason that we began doing this was for the fact that there are people out there, believe it or not, that don't have $2,000.00-$4,000.00 to drop on a stock, let alone $350.00-$420.00 to spend on bottom metal. These same people however, recognize problems with their factory rifles that they want fixed, but lack the funds or knowledge to do it themselves, so that's where we come in. We produce a trigger guard that is not "drafted", but is completely machined from solid barstock and drop-hammer forgings to extremely tight tolearances, that not only improve the function of the firearm, but add to it's cosmetic appeal. We sell these trigger guards for $180.00-$220.00 on the average, and offer inletting of the bottom metal for an additional $75.00. We don't try to fool you into thinking that we are making a trigger guard with a draft, and then sell you one without. The reason that it doesn't have a draft is because it was specified by USRAC not to have one for their rifles. That is are largest customer, and is also the reason that we have figured out how to make them in volume for far less than our competition. We don't set up to make parts for a handfull of rifles.... We send out hundreds every week. We incorporate machining techniques into our guards that are unlike anybody in the business, and I do mean anybody because I've looked at nearly all of them at one time or another. We aren't making parts to sell cheaply because they're made cheaply.....We're making them for working men who don't have unlimited expense accounts, but still want to have a quality firearm. As for someone who does use our parts, and has seen our operation, why don't you talk to John Ricks and see what he thought of how we do things. He got a chance to witness the parts being made on the machine, as well as our thoughts regarding the inletting processes and rifle actions. He could probably shed some light on the subject for those who think I'm just blowing smoke and running of the bsometer. Well, I'm out of time for today....been swamped with work, but I promise to get the pics up this weekend.....and yes, I do have them, just gotta scrounge around a little in my desk to find the friggin floppy disks. Alright, I've got my extinguisher ready and flame retardant suit on, so fire away | |||
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Quote: Alright, after reading this one I just had to make one short comment. If precision machining has nothing to do with gunmaking, how in the holy hell would you ever have a firearm that you could get to function, let alone hit the broadside of barn with? Honestly, your comment is so asinine it barely desearves a response, but that one kinda pissed me off.  Just for your information, machining as it is applied to firearms, is amongst the crudest that is being done in this world today. True precision machining is taking place on other items that you may have heard of, such as automobiles, planes, space shuttles, and hydraulics. The average metalsmith has never seen these kinds of machining techniques, nor would they readily believe that they could even be accomplished with the equipment that is available today. Most were self taught in their own shops or garages, with little or no formal training, and were not exposed to production, or precision machining enviornments. Those who did get training were most likely getting it from a trade school, or gunsmith school, where only the absolute basics are being taught when it comes to machining. I don't belittle anyone who has had to learn those skills in that manner, and respect them for jumping into it the way they did. I was fortunate enough to be exposed to many different forms of machining and fixture design that allowed me to look at things in a very different manner than your average metalsmith. Whether anyone believes that I have the capabilities that I speak of is trivial....I could care less. I'm not out to win a popularity contest or conform like a bunch of sheep. I'm an independent thinker...Always have been, and always will be. I can't debate long with those who are stuck in 1940 and don't realize that we've evolved a little in the last 30 years or so, even though this seamingly honest comment, turned arguement, has caused me to debate it far longer than I wished. | |||
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You tell em Matt! I'm still looking forward to getting my bottom metal from you...drafted or not. Rick | |||
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