Alternative title 'Cheer me up from my own disaster'

Lets hear about the flawed projects you have commissioned or the buckets of money you've thrown at your dream to no avail. How do you cope with producing an ill handling dog with no resale value for the price of an expensive custom. At what point did your dream become a nightmare. How did you rectify the issue - sell it on to some other mug or launch the f#@*^r down the range after smashing the POS against the bench. Did you swear never to be so stupid again or did you look at your savings and wonder if the demise of this project allowed you to plan that expensive custom you'd avoided (but just spent the money on for the POS)

Has anyone every bought your POS for a song and then turned it into a highly desirable rig through some incredibly minor detail you missed?

Don't abandon me to my endless recriminations - help!

1986 - bought a 1909 Argy rifle at a gunshow.
1988 - sent letters/calls to a few smiths about a euro style rifle on the action.

1988 - a few smiths declined unless they did the whole project which was reasonable to me.
One send a very nice catalog with prices and pictures of his work. A delaware smith.

sent the action off for the project:
DST, 3 pos safety, new FP button.
Taper octagon bbl. G&H mount.
I was gonna supply a stock (from GAG, that's another story) I still have it.

Smith goes bankrupt, partner takes off with money/deposits (I was told).

I eventually paid for and got my action, unfitted 3 pos safety, DST fitted to the bottom metal, G&H side mount.

I eventually had an american classic done by a local guy, very good work but he took 2 years to finish it and probably farmed out all but the stock work.

99% of the guys who ordered and paid for a Montana PH action.

Keith

I can tell you the one "I" screwed up the worst. It was my first stock from a blank. I had everything going well. Nice higher grade blank, got the dimensions I wanted, started by inletting the bottom metal for the mauser. Nice inlet, for my first try. I went to inlet and fit the action.....that's when it hit me....I inlet the wrong bottom metal. I picked up a sample I had for an intermediate action and not the 98 I was working on.

DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ACRAGLASS IT TAKES TO FIX THAT????? NOT ENOUGH.

I chalked it up to stupidity. I made it fit and it still shot VERY well, but it was still a screwup gargantuan.

About 2 months ago I decide to test out my new ultrasonic cleaner by completely tearing down a Rem. M14 pump rifle. The parts came out beautiful, lots of case color and nitre blue inside that old gun.

Unfortunately life got in the way, I didn't get back to it in a timely manner and right now I have no idea where to start with reassembly of those spanking clean parts...

Several years ago I made an attempt to cut two M-98 actions in half and weld them back together to make a short action and a long action.....

The old adage.....there is a cost to education....and in this case the cost was borne....but I still don't know how to do it...

Both actions were scrapped!

quote:

Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
About 2 months ago I decide to test out my new ultrasonic cleaner by completely tearing down a Rem. M14 pump rifle. The parts came out beautiful, lots of case color and nitre blue inside that old gun.

Unfortunately life got in the way, I didn't get back to it in a timely manner and right now I have no idea where to start with reassembly of those spanking clean parts...

They call that a "gun in a bag"

I've seen it more then once coming into a gun shop. And I've fixed more guys fishing reels that just shouldn't own tools

How about being a cheep bastard and trying to fit a rifle blank to a break action shot gun.
Blank is scrap and action is shelved.

My worst was an 11.5 lb 375 H&H M98.

+1 on what Vapodog said. Sometimes an education can be expensive.


Terry

One name John Ricks

From the standpoint of money lost, my worst screwup was listening to all the praise of the 1909 Argentine action, years ago, and spent a bunch of money on a custom rifle built on one of those actions. In about a year, I discovered the lugs had set back. I salvaged the barrel and stock, and sold the rest at a gun show.

My first "custom" rifle was to have a Rem 788 rebarreled from 30-30 to 375 Winchester, right after the cartridge was introduced. I sent the whole rifle to Douglas and they rebarreled it. Basically they ruined the rifle, and it was very inaccurate. I traded it off.

Another screw-up was to have a barrel chambered in 450 Marlin installed onto a Ruger 77 MKII short action before checking and making sure it would feed properly. I never did get it to feed right, and had to start over with a longer action and have the barrel reamed out to 458WM, which worked.

I've had far more projects work out, than those that didn't.

KB

I have never made a misteak

Dear 1894mk2:

Gunsmith #1: 270 Winchester on a Sako L-691 action with Douglas barrel. Fortunately unable to chamber a round, since the separate recoil lug was never bedded into the McMillan stock.

Gunsmith #2: Big name local guy, sat on $3800.00 for 18 months, no progress, and used my Lilja barrel on his own rifle for gun shows.

Gunsmith #3: Screwed the pooch on a 1940 K98k with 7x57 AI Lilja barrel. Barrel threads really sloppy, chamber had a nice ridge in the shoulder even though I provided him with a brand new PTG removable pilot reamer. Banged up the feed rails by using a bar to pull the action off, probably when the dufus was checking headspace instead of using a proper action wrench.

Sued that son of a bitch, and got my money back.

I don't use gunsmiths anymore. I do it all myself, except for welding on bolt handles.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Sounds as if I am not alone.

Worst one was doing some work for a guy that continues to call me a "hack" but won't let me know who he is or what I did.

Next was the really nice English Walnut blank that I had started from the block and had the barreled action all inletted. I went to install the cross bolts and took my dimensions off the wrong surface. Ended up drilling through the area behind the front guard screw and also through the cutout for the trigger. I still have that example of a bad example in the rack.

Winston Alwrong of the Pre Cataract Era.. And my Blind Faith...

my first attempt at a double rifle .
followed closely by my second attempted

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
my first attempt at a double rifle .
followed closely by my second attempted

I just aquired a Sterlingworth 20 Ga side X side with sidelocks and double triggers.....a very nice action....(the barrels are missing)

It will be the foundation for my second attempt. My first one was a .30-30 on a 410 Ga Stoeger action.....it fired and functioned....but was a heavy monster and very poor piece of workmanship.....fatally flawed in several ways.....again...the cost of education!

My second attempt will be a .25-35.....and I sure hope a helluva lot smarter and lighter!

THIS THREAD IS USELESS WITHOUT PICS!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

I just aquired a Sterlingworth 20 Ga side X side with sidelocks and double triggers.....a very nice action....(the barrels are missing)

Sterlingsworths were boxlocks, did you mean side clips?

quote:

Originally posted by Recoil Rob:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

I just aquired a Sterlingworth 20 Ga side X side with sidelocks and double triggers.....a very nice action....(the barrels are missing)

Sterlingsworths were boxlocks, did you mean side clips?

I mean this:

Vapo,

That certainly is a sidelock but the name Sterlingsworth is commonly known as the name of the Fox Gun Co.'s field grade boxlock from the early 20th century.

I'm curious as to your receiver, is it stamped Sterlingsworth? Any other marks on it?


thanks,

Rob

It was sold as a Victor Sarasqueta.....but it definitely is stamped Sterlingworth on the bottom of the receiver.

Can I count the 4 or 5 AIs and my first full wildcat that I built BEFORE I had invested in a Chrono?? I did learn to temper my expectations.

You reminded me of my one and only AI chamber debacle. That one was enough for me to form a lifetime opinion of the worthlessness of anything AI. So, in a way that loss saved me a lot of trouble amortized over time. Just like the one time mess with the 1909 Argentine. Saved me a lot of good money later.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You reminded me of my one and only AI chamber debacle. That one was enough for me to form a lifetime opinion of the worthlessness of anything AI. KB

If you didn't try and nickel & dime your smiths, you may have better results.

You need to have the attitude:
You want to do it right the first time, don't you?

You may be onto something James.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
If you didn't try and nickel & dime your smiths, you may have better results.

that cuts both ways ,...

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You reminded me of my one and only AI chamber debacle. That one was enough for me to form a lifetime opinion of the worthlessness of anything AI. KB

If you didn't try and nickel & dime your smiths, you may have better results.

You need to have the attitude:
You want to do it right the first time, don't you?

You have no clue, as far as I know, what attitude or relationship I have with my gunsmith of choice. You are just blowing hot air again.

The gunsmiths I've known are quite resistant to nickel and diming. Mostly, I get a general idea what the invoice is going to be, but I can't ever recall knowing the exact amount for the work, until it's done. It hasn't seemed to make much difference what my attitude is/was regarding whether it was done right the first time. Throwing money at it isn't the complete answer, IMO. It's a comb of things, most important of which is the right gunsmith, in which case, other things tend to work out, including attitude and money. If you're saying to go into these things with the attitude that money is no object, then one thing you can count on with me is that ain't gonna happen.

Most of the time, but not always, these mistakes of the types in this discussion, result in not making that mistake again.

I mostly stayed with the same gunsmith for over twenty-five years, and he was expensive. He finally just quit doing gunsmith work, and sold the business and retired. I had to forgive him several times for mistakes, but he made it right one way or another. One thing I liked about him is that he never tried to BS his way around a mistake, but fortunately they were rare. I also had some work done by other gunsmiths, with mixed results. It all varies, since gunsmiths aren't any more perfect than the rest of us mortals.

Most of my mistakes with gun projects had less to do with the gunsmith, than it did with my poor idea. But of course the gunsmith was willing to try it, on my dime. Several times, I've had gunsmiths talk me out of one on my "good" ideas, and maybe suggest an alternative. Some of the worst mistakes I've made had to do with feeding issues, which I should have seen coming, and mostly I blame the gunsmith for that, since he should have seen it coming first. It was still my dime. If it don't feed it's junk. Since I wasted my money on that type of mistake several times - shame on me - now I make sure the action feeds before proceeding with the project.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
now I make sure the action feeds before proceeding with the project. KB

What qualifications do you have to deem whether or not an action can feed a certain cartridge?

I've got no idea how you can assume that some factory Rem, Ruger, Win, CZ, etc can feed better than a properly built military contract Mauser 98 from 22-250 to 458 Lott.

My worst FUBAR involved my choice of shipping agent. 30 years ago I sent a Hubertus vierling to Connecticut via UPS, because in my youthful ignorance I assumed that their professional people would handle my (heavily insured) package with care, instead of entrusting it to those gorillas down at the USPS.....

The package arrived damaged; the receiver claims he gave it back to the UPS guy and the UPS guy claims the receiver kept it. UPS wanted pictures of the vierling and its packaging as it was being packaged before they would even consider a claim, and of course I didn't take pics.

Think about the value of a vierling, and the fact that I never got any settlement AT ALL.
Regards, Joe

As far as nickel and diming goes. My experience has been that the few good smiths in my area do play that game. they tell you right up front what it will cost on flat rate work and what it should cost on estimated work. There is no bargaining involved as they will just kindly ask you to take your work else where.

As the Great Harry Pope said and had post in his shop. NO DELIVERY PROMISED. TAKE YOUR WORK WHEN DONE OR TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. IF YOU MUST KNOW WHEN I'LL BE THROUGH WITH YOUR WORK THAT ANSWER IS NOW. TAKE YOU WORK AWAY, I DON'T WANT IT.

That was and still is the kind of sentiment that a great local gunsmith gives me and just about everyone else that comes in there. His work is top notch and it done when it's done and not a minute sooner.

If the smith plays that gam he only has himself to blame. Price your work for what the market will bare and don't negotiate. simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
now I make sure the action feeds before proceeding with the project. KB

What qualifications do you have to deem whether or not an action can feed a certain cartridge?

I've got no idea how you can assume that some factory Rem, Ruger, Win, CZ, etc can feed better than a properly built military contract Mauser 98 from 22-250 to 458 Lott.

Reading your words carefully - "qualifications to deem whether certain actions can feed certain cartridges". Maybe your right, considering the broad scope of the question. I could barely begin to tell what's possible with a given action and various cartridge combinations.

What I do have is knowledge aplenty to deem if a given action does feed a particular cartridge properly. Not only that, I can tell pretty well whether it's likely to feed a given cartridge, with minimal gunsmith work, by trying it through the action and seeing where the glitches are, and how close it comes to feeding correctly, looking at how the cartridges stack in the magazine, and how well they center into the breech as they move forward.

Where do you get this assume thing? I didn't say that. Many gunsmiths say that they can get a 98 to feed a wide variety of cartridges. I don't doubt individual gunsmiths, because I have no way to test what they say, whether it's true or not. All I can go by is what I've seen, and what I see in front of me. When I see a Ruger action feeding flawlessly the cartridge that I intend to have installed a barrel for, that clear enough for me. I make no assumptions that a gunsmith can or cannot make a 98 feed as well, because it doesn't matter, and I'll never know for sure, because I'm gonna use what I see that works. Same thing with a CZ, I can see that it feeds properly, and that's all there is to it. I have Mausers that feed very well too. There's nothing to assume.

What has cause me problems is assuming that when a gunsmith says he can make it feed, that he actually can. I've gone ahead and let the gunsmith install the barrel, and do other work, leaving the feeding issues to resolve last, trusting the gunsmith's judgment, then when the rifle is delivered, it feeds poorly. I've had that happen several times.

So, now I want to see it feed before proceeding. That's not too much to ask, and it's not difficult at all to determine. It either feeds or it doesn't. Whatever modifications that need to happen, need to happen first, and again, when it feeds - proceed.

You're making this feeding issue complicated, but I see that you're thinking in terms of possibilities - can it feed? - making it feed. I think in terms of does it feed. Show me. It's a lot more a yes or no / go or no go issue for me, based on the condition of the action as it is right now, not what it could be made into. I have wasted a lot of money before getting this way about feeding issues, and this is the only way I know to avoid wasting money again, and having already paid the gunsmith, messing with the rifle a while trying to get it to work, postage back and forth, and then eventually just get rid of the rifle, and start over.

I'll give an example. I think the 8x68S would be an interesting cartridge. So I started acumulating stuff and parts to have one built. I had a significant variety of Mauser actions at that time, maybe 20, military and commercial FNs and MK X. It's common consensus that the Mauser action can be made to feed a 8x68s cartridge. I'm sure its true, generally. Anyway, I bought dies, brass, shellholder, 8mm bullets, and made up some dummy rounds. From studying how those rounds fit into the Mauser actions, I could see that lots of modifications needed to happen, ($$$) which also meant that I was going to have to trust a gunsmith on this issue again. Meanwhile, I got a chance to try some 323 Hollis cartridges through a Ruger 77 MKII action I had. Very slick feeding, no modifications required, and readily available brass. So, I abandonded the 8x68s project for the 323 Hollis project instead, simply because I am as close as possible to 100% sure that there will be no feeding issues with the Ruger action. I've since decided to rebarrel my CZ 550 7 mag to the 323 Hollis. It feeds as well or maybe better than the Ruger, and no gunsmith modifications to either action are needed (for feeding). I believe a Mauser action would also work well, (especially with Blackburn bottom metal $$$) but I also believe the Ruger or the CZ will work better, because for one thing the factory magazine is a little wider, allowing the cartridges to stack correctly.

A similar thing happened when I was deciding about a 9.3x64, and I ended up going with 9.3x338, just necking up 338 brass to 9.3mm. Feeding issues are non-existant. It was the correct decision, and one of the most accurate and satisfying rifles I have to shoot and handload for. It's on a Ruger action. I like the rifle so much, that I'm thinking of having another one put together, since I have the reamer, dies, and another Ruger action, a McMillan stock, and a PacNor SS 9.3mm barrel. That way I can have one set up scoped to shoot 250 gr bullets, and the second one for heavy bullets, and open sights.

BTW, James, the 9.3x338 barrel was installed by PacNor, and they trued the face of the receiver and lapped the lugs, and used my reamer to cut the chamber. When I got it back, I dropped it in a Hogue stock with the full aluminum block inside. The drop-in required no inleting, and no gunsmith intervention or dollars at all. The barrel channel is free floated without an unsightly gap. And also of importance to me, there was no waiting months enduring that great customer service attitude "NO DELIVERY PROMISED. TAKE YOUR WORK WHEN DONE OR TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. IF YOU MUST KNOW WHEN I'LL BE THROUGH WITH YOUR WORK THAT ANSWER IS NOW. TAKE YOU WORK AWAY, I DON'T WANT IT." then adding to the insult by having an invoice showing a tidy sum.

The longest delivery time on any one aspect of the project was the dies, and that was almost 9 months. The reamer was about 4 weeks, the barrel installation about 4 weeks. There was little angst over delivery times.

Did I mention that the rifle has shot one inch or better groups with nearly every load I've tried?

Let's see -- nickel and dime:

Used Ruger rifle stainless in 300 WM, bought from a local in a village in SE Alaska -- $250

Timney trigger installed -- $150

PacNor stainless barrel installed and shipping $450

Hogue Stock and shipping $225

PTG Reamer $150

100 pieces of 338WM brass $75

Redding Dies, custom $150

Leupold rings $75
Leupold scope 3.5x10 $400
Leupold flip-up lense covers objective and eyepiece $80

Sling $40

Attitude -- priceless

KB

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
As the Great Harry Pope said and had post in his shop. NO DELIVERY PROMISED. TAKE YOUR WORK WHEN DONE OR TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. IF YOU MUST KNOW WHEN I'LL BE THROUGH WITH YOUR WORK THAT ANSWER IS NOW. TAKE YOU WORK AWAY, I DON'T WANT IT.

What an arrogant prick.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
As the Great Harry Pope said and had post in his shop. NO DELIVERY PROMISED. TAKE YOUR WORK WHEN DONE OR TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. IF YOU MUST KNOW WHEN I'LL BE THROUGH WITH YOUR WORK THAT ANSWER IS NOW. TAKE YOU WORK AWAY, I DON'T WANT IT.

What an arrogant prick.

Well as with anything once you develop a reputation for a high demand product you can afford to be arrogant.

But then there are those that are not arrogant but just damn pricey and that weeds out the flakes real quick

quote:

As the Great Harry Pope said and had post in his shop. NO DELIVERY PROMISED. TAKE YOUR WORK WHEN DONE OR TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. IF YOU MUST KNOW WHEN I'LL BE THROUGH WITH YOUR WORK THAT ANSWER IS NOW. TAKE YOU WORK AWAY, I DON'T WANT IT.

I'm sure he gets plenty of business. Just wouldn't be any of mine. There are plenty of good quality people to do work for you that don't come with that type of attitude. A major project should be an enjoyment.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
What qualifications do you have to deem whether or not an action can feed a certain cartridge?

that's easy.. i have $$$ .. and if it doesn't feed afterwards, its cra#$

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
As the Great Harry Pope said and had post in his shop. NO DELIVERY PROMISED. TAKE YOUR WORK WHEN DONE OR TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. IF YOU MUST KNOW WHEN I'LL BE THROUGH WITH YOUR WORK THAT ANSWER IS NOW. TAKE YOU WORK AWAY, I DON'T WANT IT.

What an arrogant prick.

agreed

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

As the Great Harry Pope said and had post in his shop. NO DELIVERY PROMISED. TAKE YOUR WORK WHEN DONE OR TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. IF YOU MUST KNOW WHEN I'LL BE THROUGH WITH YOUR WORK THAT ANSWER IS NOW. TAKE YOU WORK AWAY, I DON'T WANT IT.

I'm sure he gets plenty of business. Just wouldn't be any of mine. There are plenty of good quality people to do work for you that don't come with that type of attitude. A major project should be an enjoyment.

That would be "DID" get a lot of work. He's dead now and been that way for a very long time

I agree a major project should be an enjoyment. I would hope that Pope's philosophy was based on not being held to unreasonable delivery dates. But I suspect is was nothing more then arrogance

quote:

I would hope that Pope's philosophy was based on not being held to unreasonable delivery dates. But I suspect is was nothing more then arrogance

If most any of today's barrel makers said this it would ring of arrogance!!! Mr Pope was among the very few that might have gotten away with this....

He was that good!

A couple of rifle projects took a two year nap up in the Pacific Northwest. I was fortunate that I was refunded all my monies and materials.