I don't doubt you but it would be awfully strange to open a 16ga up that much.

Rob

This could be a mixup on my part as the one at the Armory looks the same. Anyway it works and works good.

Anyone have the specs on a 16 ga chamber gage? It would be easy to make one.

I have two, one is round bar stock 0.730 in diameter, mark it at 1, 2, 2-1/2, 2-3/4, & 3".

The other is made from a 1/32" brass sheet stock rectangle, .0730"w x 4" long, marked the same as above.

Either one gets inserted into the chamber until it touches and the measurement is read where the rim of the case would touch the chamber.

Fr a one time reading you could probably use and index card or a plastic sheet cut to size

I measured my drilling again and made a gage from a tube that I could bend in an oval to make it any diameter in the .72 to .73" range.

A tube .687" in diameter goes in 2.968"
A tube .723" in diameter goes in 2.683"
A tube .730" in diameter goes in 2.590"

A Federal shotgun shell unfired is 2.5" long.
A Federal shotgun shell opened up is 2.69"
That Federal shell is .730" in diameter near its end unfired.

A WW magnum is .715"
A Breneke magnum slug is .715"

It seems that the leade is much more gradual than it looks to the eye and in any case thats why all 2 3/4" shells shoot and fire just fine. There are no pressure problems or extraction problems with this gun.

I don't want single barrel rifle or shotgun or a gun with "Patek Phillipe mvt" .
23,5-25" barrels on a shotgun? No problemo, but make mine a genuine Churchill XXV gun!
That "long on a tooth" stuff often comes in expired 9,3x72, "Sauer R",......,take your pick. New stuff is fine, but where locally are you going to find ammo for 7x57R, 7x65R, 30R Blaser,....?
You either have short range rifle outfit (w/o scope) or a bird gun with a scope attached, great. I guess if you limit your "upland hunting" to turkey, or capercaillie that's just fine.
Wait, it's not hopeless, I am holding out for a 20x20/.30-30Win with 28" barrels and Mosin-Nagant type side-monut!

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
I measured my drilling again and made a gage from a tube that I could bend in an oval to make it any diameter in the .72 to .73" range.

A tube .687" in diameter goes in 2.968"
A tube .723" in diameter goes in 2.683"
A tube .730" in diameter goes in 2.590"
\.

Well there you go, a .730 tube goes in 2.59", close enough to 2-1/2". That the gun's chambers are still original and it's in proof.

You said you haven't had any pressure problems or extraction problems, but that isn't as much of an indicator in shotguns as it is in centerfire rifles. Your gun wasn't built to withstand reapeated firing with modern 2-3/4" loads. You may notice the wood along where it meets the receiver sides starts to swell outward as it gets crushed by the recoil. Eventually the gun will shoot loose or come off face, you may pop a rib on the barrels, they're only soft soldered. Sort of like plowing snow commercially with a Subaru outback, wasn't built to handle it. And certainly not with 2-3/4 slugs.

If it were mine (and it isn't, so take it FWIW and the spirit in which it's offered) I'd shoot 2-1/2" shells out of it and treat it well. They're readily available from many sources, may cost a little more but realistically how much will you shoot from a drilling?

best,

Rob

RecoilRob,

Thanks for the concern however it's been proven over that last half centry that it's going to be fine. The previous owners shot the longer shells in it and so have I.

I have bought 2 3/4" shells by the case and have fired thousands of shots out of it. I have used it for skeet shooting as well and crazy quail. As I have said before it's my best shotgun.

The shells clear and the stock has not been pounded at all and it looks fine. I will take some close up pictures of it one day soon.

I was wrong about the chamber lengths however as I thought that they were as long as 3"! It turns out that the leade looks abrupt maybe because it's dark and the rest of the chambers and barrels are bright. It must get hit with lead etc. and be dark for that reason.

The probable reason has already been covered, ie, the relative differences in types of hunting re Europe and the USA. Here in OZ we have similar differences, some people hunt in areas where they will probably only find the one sort of critter, and others hunt in areas where we may find anything from rabbits or ducks, to deer. Apart from ducks and quail, there aren't any seasons for critters as such, just better times to find them than others.
Where I hunt, for example, there are deer, rabbits, hares, foxes, wild dogs, lots of mallard ducks (which are a pest, and are required to be shot on sight).
So, for me, a combo gun does it better than anything else. To the extent that, the other day I looked in my gun safe and thought, 'well there are 5 guns I will probably never use again'.

Cheers, Dave
Non Illegitium Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
Just for the record, when you have side by side rifle barrels with a single shotgun barrel it is called an "Express drilling".

En francais, peut-être... Auf Deutsch heißt die Waffe "Doppelbüchsdrilling" und nicht anders .

Carcano

Burkhard,
Thanks for the offer. Unfortunately I have to keep it on my someday list. At present my funds are tied up with other purchases and pending purchases.

Sorry for the delay in my responce. I was required to be out of town several days.

I do appreciate the offer though.

The whole subject of 2-1/2" inch shells has been beaten to death at Shooting Sportsman and in the Double Gun Journal. While no one really recommends it, I don't think anyone has really made a case that shooting the 2-3/4" factory loads in a 2-1/2 inch chamber is really overly bad. As noted, they are really only 2-5/8"(2.625") really, and a 65mm chamber is really 2.56" and likely sloppy above that. The more important thing to watch with thin barreled guns, which includes British shotguns and drillings(due to weight limitations) is the pressure curve. A lot of handloads with modern slow burning powders generate peak pressures way down the barrel, and in European guns, this can be in a much thinner barrel section. Interestingly, a lot of the new low recoil and lite loads are particularly prone to this. I would be more concerned that I used conventional, non-magnum loads than I would be about the 2-3/4" shells. That said, 2-1/2" loads are so readily available now, in conventional loadings, that I personally only use them. Due to availability of guns, this is a bigger issue with 16 ga than almost any other. I simply order shells by the flat and they are very economical delivered by UPS.

Good info Art, pretty much what I was trying to tell 99, you did it better.

You'd have to admit that if his gun was opened up from 2-1/2 to 3" it would a matter of concern?

Rob

To get back to the orginal subject, the discussion of combination guns in the US vs. Europe...

We should also not forget, that most combination guns, as versatile as they are, can be a bit of a compromise. If you have soldered barrels on your combination gun, don't expect to be able just to sit down at the bench and shoot a meaningful group. In 90% of soldered rifle barrels, the barrel must be allowed to cool before the second shot has a POI similar to the initial one. Additionally, a lot of combination guns (in particular Drillings with soldered barrels) are a bit of a compromise when it comes to accuracy. Most of these guns are used at distances around or under 100yds (150 m would already be a long shot), and normally don't display fabulous accuracy. Some of the Blaser combination guns (with non-soldered barrels) provide a refreshing exception to the above rule. And naturally, you can be lucky to find a gun with soldered barrels that shoots well, but in general, single barrel rifles are a lot easier to get to shoot well than combination guns... Quite apart from the fact, that you only have to worry about a single POI with a single barreled rifle.

Futhermore, there are limitations to what cartridges you can safely employ in a break-top (combination) gun. Old Drillings were famous for shooting loose. These days, they have become a lot better, but you still don't see any high intensity (magnum) cartridges in break-top guns. The exception being the great tilting block (Jäger ?) locking mechanism used by Blaser in their single shot rifles and Drillings, and by Merkel in their single shot rifle. Combination guns work best with low intensity, rimmed cartridges, most of which are largely unknown in the States. The wonderfully versatile .30-06 being the exception here.

All that said, the combination guns offer marvellous flexibility in the field. That flexibility plus tradition is what makes the combination guns as popular as they are in some parts of Europe. In the States, they remain exotics...

- mike

As to the gentleman who described the German survival drillings as 12 x 12 x 8 x 57:::All the L Survival drilling I have ever seen were 12 x 12 x 9.3 x 74. Only one was 16 x 16 x 9.3 x 74.

There was a fine Charles Daly /Sauuer imported in the early 1900's. It was 12 x12 x either 30-30 or 25-35 for the most part. Mine was 28" barrels and 7.1 pounds. It was a sidelock with tang safety and had a side lever for rifle selection. It was a dream of a gun.

Most drillings in the US were "liberated" in WW2. We did make a few ourselves in the 1880's. One was the Baker 3-barrel Gun company.

Except for the cheaper and rather chinsy 22/410 cape guns which were popular for kids (but usually cheaply made with poor triggers), the combo guns have not been popular. Today, the average used drilling here runs about $2500. You can buy a shotgun, rifle, and pistol together for maybe half that. The earlier info given by others is quite accurate. Neat guns, but if I am going after big game, I take a bolt gun. Some drillings handle well enough, that if I were going after birds, I would take one for other targets of opportunity (like Socialists).

I shot the drilling at the range Monday and tried some new loads in the 8mm barrel. It shot about the same with Hornady .321" 170 gr bullets as it does with the same bullet sized to .3185".

I also shot the shotgun barrel a good amount. This gun has such a gradual leade from the chambers to the barrels and it's always been fine. Thanks for your concern but this gun was checked out by an engineer who worked for Wallace Barnes when he brought it here. With all due respect some of you are sitting behind a computer screen and I have the gun here and it shoots fine due to the fact that the shells fit. They fit in 1968 and they fit the year after. I have fired cases and cases of shells from this gun and it's tight and the stock is excellent also. Again thanks for the general information but thats all it is.

Some of the testing I did was with slugs. It has always been super accurate with Foster type slugs. When you shoot slugs from a drilling like this you can't use the rifle sight but must use the groove in the rib. This gun shoots just a little to the side. Not really accurate enough to take the head off a grouse but good for bigger game.

Here are two shots at 50 yds with slugs. One from each barrel.



There are two shots in one hole from each barrel. The point of impact is about two inches to the right.

I tried the Breneke magnum slugs and they hit too low. This is the case with other guns as well.

Why would I want one drilling when I can 2 guns for less $ ?????

If, you tried one, you might see why you might want one. My Merkel shoots the 286 gr. NP at 2375 fps plus two Brenneke 12 ga. slugs quite close together at 25 yds and it consistently groups the rifle load under 1" at 100 yds; this with RWS factory 285 H-Mantle bullets or 270 Speers or 286 NPs. It has a Leupy 4x in Ruger rings on a custom fitted Q-rib with an adjustable XS ghost ring incorporated and a custom front ramp with a Euro gold-post sight.

This gun weighs about 8.5 lbs. all up, carries easily in steep B.C. country and can easily kill any game in North America as well as shoot three rapid Grizzly stopping shots if necessary. I have a lot of guns, but, this is certainly a very useful one for about any hunting I might want to do and I bought it for a fraction of retail in about new condition; try one, you might end up as enthusiastic as I am.

mho

you are right the combo/drilling is a compromise. No magnum loads, mostly soldered barrel with accuracy problem with the second shot, the stock is a compromise to gauge and rifle. Ammo sensity when changing the loads (many hunters buy a drilling and the lifetime ammo quantity which is really hard to believe for US hunters)
The combo is an ideal gun for stalking,drive hunting (changing the barrels). But ..many hunters love drillings, test them and make your vote.

Thumpper470

The German airforce survial drilling (code M30) was produced in 1941/42 for the air force in north africa. It was only available in 12/65-12/65 and 9,3x74 and had shorter barrels than the standard drilling. Number of drillings 1.000 pices by Sauer und Sohn in Eckernförde.

If you have this drilling in the original metall box 10.000 Euro is no problem, but they are hard to find.

In the 70's Sauer produce this M30 again based on their new system 3000.


Burkhards

There was one time I'm aware of where a combo gun really preformed well:

We tooke a friend of ours deer hunting. He was just back from a military stint in Europe and had been hunting there but had never killed a deer here. We choose a tree stand that we knew he would see a deer.

He only had a scoped 30/06 so we asked him to try a CZ combo gun because he wasn't going to get a shot from this stand over about 35 yards. The CZ was a 12 gauge over a 30/06 with iron sights. He didn't seem to cotton to this idea but when with our recommendation anyway!

Walking to the stand about 5:30 in the dark just as he rested the gun at the bottom of the stand he heard something behind him. For some reason, he still can't explain, he picked the gun back up as he turned around. Were he proceeded to shoot a 275 hog charging at 10 feet.

When we dressed the hog it had a gaping slash from it's nose up passed it's eye on up to it's forehead. We also found a seeping wound in its shoulder plate with 22 bullet stuck in the plate. Bet it had been fighting and mistook our buddy for the enemy!

We figure if he had took that scoped bolt action 30/06 he would not have faired very well!