50% of my rifle are combos, a drilling 16/7x57, a u/o combo with interchangable barrels (20/5,5x50R, 12/30R Blaser, 30RBlaser/5,6x50R) an old 20/222) maybe the next rifle should be a doublebarrel drilling in 9,3x74-9,3x74-12gauge.

In this forums there are very few hunters using a combo or a drilling. I look for an American company producing drillings, I couldnt find one, only savage has a u/o combo with a very simple look. Why is that so? For me a combo is very usefull for stalking, you go for a roe deer and hunt a rabbit and 2 ducks (as happend last year).

When I read the topic in "singleshot rifles" the hunters only talk about Ruger No. 1 or Browning, or Contender. But single shot break down actions are hard to find.

At the moment used drillings are really easy to find in Germany to very good (cheap) prices. Most of the younger hunters prefer the u/o combo, but combos everyabody has.

Burkhard

Couple of things come to mind. First, hunting is far more broad based in the US than in the parts of Europe I am familiar with. Combination guns are two to three times more expensive, at a minimum, than an entry level bolt gun. If you are in the market for a gun for the kid, most hunters think $300 is a bunch of money to spend. That pretty much leaves most drillings out of contention....

Second, seasons rarely run concurrently, and people don't combine bird and big game hunts. Here in the west, we'll carry a pistol or a 22rimfire to pot a few grouse for camp food, but we generally frown on firing a high-powered gun in order not to disturb the deer and elk.

Third, owning a bunch of guns, each for a different purpose, is no big deal. Very few places have limitations on the number of firearms one can have. Each member in my family has their own rifle, their own shotgun, and there's assorted rimfires and other miscellaneous guns for plinking. When I tell my relatives overseas that my 11 year old has her own 270 and her own 20 ga, much scratching of the scalp follows.... FWIW, Dutch.

Drillings are classic and versatile guns, but they don't do either job as well as a dedicated rifle or a dedicated shotgun. Drillings are useful for "mixed bag" hunting, but "mixed bag" hunting is unusual in the U.S. Added to the fact that a Drilling is typically more expensive than the combined price of a good scoped rifle and a fine shotgun, it makes them even less attractive as an alternative. Not that I wouldn't care to own one . . . .

Weidmann’s Heil.

The answer can be found in looking at that way hunting is done in America versus how hunting is done in Germany. Having hunted in both I feel I can comment to some degree on this. In the US we have separate seasons for most game. The seasons do overlap but we mainly focus our hunt on a single species of game at a time. A hunter may hunt deer and upland birds or rabbits but he will typically hunt them separate. You just do not see Americans hunting upland birds and deer at the same time.

I hunted in the Rohn region of Germany. There the game and seasons (to a degree) was controlled by the Land Manager for the area we were hunting. Consequently the hunter typically had several species of game available to him on a single hunt. It was entirely common to go out for a days hunt and be allowed to shoot rabbits, birds, fox, and deer. A Drilling makes a lot of sense giving this kind of hunting. The hunter who brought only a shotgun would not be able to hunt the variety of game as effectively as the hunter who had the Drilling.

With a Drilling you have (depending on the setup) two shotgun barrels available for birds or any other small game plus a rifle cartridge available for deer and other game at longer distances. Some Drillings if I remember right could be setup for two rifle shots and one shot shell. Thus the hunter could pick his Drilling based on what game was most common for the area. With some shotguns it may mean you load a single slug backed up by two shot loads and dump the slug if I bird flushes. If a deer runs by you have the first shot only. With double guns you would only have a single shot at each. Although certain species of game are the focus of special hunts in Germany. If a hunter was drawn for a Chamis (the spelling may be wrong) he would no doubt carry a rifle to focus on that special animal. When the shotgun barrels are chosen the iron sights drop out of the way and the hunter has access to a simple front bead. Once the rifle barrel is chosen the rear sight flips up and he has access to iron sights.

Had I stayed in Germany Longer I would have no doubt bought myself a Drilling. Probably a nice 16ga/16ga/7X57.

Burkhard, I don't know why they are not used here as much, but I am doing my best to change that fact. I hunt with the savage 24v 222/20ga for deer and have loads (cast bullet for small game and nosler bullets for deer) 20ga shoots slugs very well 2" @ 50yds. will shoot buckshot ok@ 30yds. Have killed several deer with both rifle and shotgun combo. longest shot so far with rifle is about 65yds. shotgun about 35yds. I have confidence in this firearm to get the job done and it has served me well!
bill 439

Quick question first. What exactly is a Drilling?
Is it a type of double rifle or something you add to the rifle/shotgun. And i guess anouther reason you don't see more stuff like that in America is that we like haveing a full Magizine when we go hunting. I would also guess that most hunter/shooters don't see the beuty of a double rifle. They have something of a stigma as not being acccurate enought for varmit hunting or are too expensive for a deer rifle. Personally I think an O/U rifle/shotgun combo would be nice for the type of coyote hunting that happens around here but those rifles are hard to find, every seems to think you need either heavy barrel bolt gun or a tricked out AR to kill 'yotes.

A Drilling is a three barreled gun. Two shotgun bores set side by side with a rifle bore set underneath and at the junction of the shotgun bores. They may also be made with two rifle bores and a single shotgun bore.

My partner uses his Krieghoff drilling every year for fall turkey hunting and it is great for that. Otherwise I think they are just too much money for most US hunters.

I'd rather say that "it's what we grew up with"..American hunting rifles and shotguns are extremely traditional and not about to be easily changed....the shape of the stock....the name of the cartridge.....the traditional American gun makers....Winchester, Browning, Remington etc...

We didn't grow up with double rifles and drillings and combo guns...and the Savage offering was so cheap as to mark one as almost unamerican to own one...(BTW the 410/22LR combo was a very fine gun)

To put it to you differently.....we're just as traditional in our ways as you are.....and that's not all bad.

The first long gun I ever owned was the Savage Model 23 (?). The break top O/U 22lr/410 worked great for a left handed kid.

Other reasons that Drillings are not popular are weight, cost and legality.

I understand that in Germany and possibly most of Europe, a hunter pays taxes or liscense fees for every firearm owned. This(if true) explains the interest in combining several firearms into one. It is also why there are several switch barrel rifles such as the Mauser 66 and Sauer 202. An opposite attitude exists in the US, that is, to own multiple, specialized firearms. The more the merrier.

There are also legal issues as mentioned above, Depending on species being hunted, we can't carry rifle and shotgun ammo together. The laws vary state by state but in TN you can't hunt turkeys with a rifle or deer with buckshot.

Those issues and the others mentioned have eliminated the drillings from US hunting.

Regards,

Dan

Just about the only situation I can think of for a combo gun in the US is turkey hunting...and that's only in the states (like Texas) that allow centerfire rifles for turkey. A .223 over a 12 Ga makes a dandy turkey combo...

Burkhard
I agree with you. A drilling is one of the best hunting guns on the planet, if it fits where you hunt. I will tell "my" drilling story. Here in Texas deer, quail, duck, and pigs can be hunted at the same time.
On our deer lease my wife hunts over looking a river where ducks land on a regular basis. Also there are a lot of turkeys, quail walk by on a regular basis, adn nany given time a deer or pig will be there too.
She got in the habit of carrying her rifle and a shotgun every time she went to hunt. [We love to eat ducks and quail].
I went into a gunstore one day adn made the mistake of my LIFE. I bought HER a Sauer Drilling 12x12x30-06 with a Kahles 4X in claw mounts. The "mistake"?, I should have told her I bought it for me and was going to let her borrow it.
She loves it. She has taken squirrel, rabbit, [we like to eat them too], dove, quail, turkey with the shotgun bbl, one pig with a slug, several with the rifle bbl and several deer.
She has used it on black bear hunts, no bear taken with it yet, but she has taken several grouse with it in Montana.

Sometimes she lets me use it. I have taken all the game she had with the SGN but I have yet to take anything with the 30-06 bbl.
I snuck it out of the house on an idaho bear hunt where I shot a few grouse. When she saw the picture she said,"What is MY drilling doing in Idaho?"
I must have one for myself. Either a 20 or a 12 gauge with a 9,3x74R would be my choice, scope in claw mounts for sure.

Her drilling handles better as a shotgun than my Browning Citori.
They truely are great hunting guns.

Since we are talking about drillings, I thought you all might like to see this rifle. It is a drilling built by August Pachmayer prior to 1904. It is a 16x8x60R to the best of our ability as it is not marked. It was built prior to Mr. Pachmayer coming to America.
I had the priviledge of meeting his grandson who owns the rifle while he was visiting my friend and gunsmith Paul Grundman.
My working Drilling is a 16x8x57 which I enjoy hunting with. It has taken several quail and Grouse but still needs a deer to make me happy.

It is my understanding that the gunmaking region of Suhl will be having a celebration and will be honoring gunmakers like Mr. Pachmayer next year. If anyone can confirm that I would like to know.
Frank





Double click on the image to enlarge.

I think the big reason is simply money. I love drillings and combo guns, but own only a few old ones, since the cost vs benefit is so low. As stated above, in my state there is very little hunting use for one. You can't have a rifle or ammo during a turkey hunt, you can't bird hunt during deer season etc. There is really little practical use for them.

It was my understanding that they developed in Europe for two reasons. The popularity of mixed bag hunts and the fact that some European countries, at least historically, limited the number of guns a person could buy or own. In some places, I believe this was a lifetime limit. For that reason, it fostered a history of well built, quality guns in multiple calibers or with interchangeable barrels (hence the popularity of that type of single shot rifle which tends to be dominate in the German region).

Thanks you for the replies. The dilling is a typical German rifle and ist used in Austria and some regions in France.
My smith told me, that the German "drilling companies" like Krieghof, Heym and Blaser wheanwhile sell the biggest quantity to Russia.

As the number of guns for hunters in Germany is not limited (handguns only two) I think the reason for using so many drillings are the open seasons, most animals are open at the same time.

54JNoll the drilling you mentioned 16/16/7x57 was the most used and produced drilling.
Used drillings of this type are easy to find and
pretty cheap. My gunsmith Jürgen

http://www.lippe-waffen.de

mostly has serveral on stock. All are with claw mounts, which was the standart mount fordrillings, and mostly with the ZEISS diatal 4x36.
If you are interessted I can ask him.

A nice drilling story.
Last mounth I visited a friend, hunter since more than 50 years and always used one gun - a drilling.

This wife told me "..he starts to drive crazy he bought a new gun for 12.000 Euro. I was sure - a drilling.
My fried proudly presented a new KRIEFHOF OPTIMA in a clever configuration.
2 gauge in 20 and a riflebarrel in 8x57 IRS.

He has an insert barrel in 5,6x50R and another in 8x57IRS. So he is prepared for everything.
The rifle has two triggers both are french set triggers.
So he told me, going out for birds we will take the normal drilling, for stalking on fox, roe deer and fallaw deer he will put the small insert barrel into the rift gauge.
For drive hunting boars we will put the 8x57 insert barrel in one gauge and the small caliber into the other, maybe for roe deer Other insert barrels can be possible. maybe a 30R Balser for long range or a hornet or, or, or.

When I told him, that it is too complicated for me, he answered "... the difference between an tea bag and a japanese tea zelebration is simelar to what he is celebrating before hunting, and thats what he enjoys the most"
I understood.

BTW tits possible to top the drilling - vierlings. That means 4 barrels. But I really knew only one hunter using such a gun.


Burkhard

Just for the record, when you have side by side rifle barrels with a single shotgun barrel it is called an "Express drilling". When it's two shotgun barrels and a single rifle then it's a "Drilling". When it is one rifle and one shotgun barrel side by side it is normally referred to as a Cape gun (by the way, Chapuis here in France has made some very nice Cape guns). When it's an U/O it's called a "Mixed" gun, at least here in France. There are of course every combination conceivable such as two different rifle calibers and one shotgun barrel, etc. Hunting practices aside, if I could only have one gun for survival, it would be a drilling with 12/12 and 9,3 or .375 underneath. Can you imagine a better survival piece? It breaks down for carry in a back pack (it was issued in fact to Luftwaffe pilots in WWII with 8X57JRS rifle barrel) and gives you a lot of options. Consider this: a .375 caliber rifle bullet and two 12 gauge slugs almost as fast as you can pull the trigger.

I hunt with a drilling in Vermont, USA. It fits in perfectly in the wooded hilly terrain. The black bear season opens Sept. 1 and the small game in late Sept. The primary bird is the ruffed grouse.

Once I started hunting there frequently I wanted a drilling and I found that my Ithaka Deerslayer in 12ga was the ticket. It worked just fine on grouse and then I had a shot at a black bear. I used to keep a slug as the second round and I shucked out the birdshot and by the time I aimed at the bear is was too hard of a shot and I had to let it go.

Then in 1968 a friend sold me his Sauer drilling. I have used it since. It's a 16X16 over a 8X57JR and has two scopes in claws with it.

I have seen turkey hunters in PA carrying both a rifle and a shotgun.

Deer season in the Agdirondacks coincides with grouse. I carried my NImrod Drilling, 16x16 over 8x57.

I have noticed there seem to be two styles of "Drilling" Some have short 23-24" barrels and seem to be designed as a rifle with extra shotgun barrels

The other have barrels 26-28" long and seem to be designed more as a shotgun with an extra rifle barrel. Mine is of this variety.


Thanks, Rob

Here are some drilling combos

http://www.adamy-jagdwaffen.de/drilling.html

And here is a Vierling - four barrels. Heym has one in the standard programm. I hope one day it will be possible for me.


http://www.heym-waffenfabrik.de/S_Kombi/S_Vierl/st_Vierl.html


Burkhard

At a gun show about 10 years ago I saw a five barreled gun, double shotgun over double rifle with a .22 rimfire tucked in on the side. All on a Dural frame.

Rob

Mine is a splendid double 9.3x74R over 20 guage by AFW Timner of Coblenz, from 1930s. From rest at 100 yards, 286 grain ammo, with open sights smoked and Merit iris disc on my glasses it keeps 8 shots alternate barrels under 3". I am embarassed to say that altho owning it for more than twenty years I have never hunted with it.

Vigillinus,

9.3x74, isn't that one of those "panatela" cartridges, as long as a cigar?

You should hunt it someday, what part of the country do you hunt? They're really nice in the NE but out west I'd say their usefulnness is limited.

They make a nice wild boar gun though. Shoot the rifle first and when he charges you can let him have it at close range with two loads of 00 buck!

Years ago I had a Winchester combo with a 7x57 top barrel and a 12 ga under with screw in chokes. Had a scope that returned to zero and was quick to remove, thought it was a great gun but let it get away. big mistake

I have a CZ 12ga over 7x57r but have yet to really find a use for it. It's a nice enough gun and shoots very good just really don't know what to use it for. Just had to have it though.

Rob, the 9.3x74R is about halfway between a .35 Whelen and a .375 H&H, so I guess it would be a good Alaskan brush gun, but the open sights and my aging eyes will limit its usefulness at anything but pretty close range.

quote:

Originally posted by Burkhard:
50% of my rifle are combos, a drilling 16/7x57, a u/o combo with interchangable barrels (20/5,5x50R, 12/30R Blaser, 30RBlaser/5,6x50R) an old 20/222) maybe the next rifle should be a doublebarrel drilling in 9,3x74-9,3x74-12gauge.

In this forums there are very few hunters using a combo or a drilling. I look for an American company producing drillings, I couldnt find one, only savage has a u/o combo with a very simple look. Why is that so? For me a combo is very usefull for stalking, you go for a roe deer and hunt a rabbit and 2 ducks (as happend last year).

When I read the topic in "singleshot rifles" the hunters only talk about Ruger No. 1 or Browning, or Contender. But single shot break down actions are hard to find.

At the moment used drillings are really easy to find in Germany to very good (cheap) prices. Most of the younger hunters prefer the u/o combo, but combos everyabody has.

Burkhard

Probably for the same reason you don't find many German hunters using Winchester lever-actions!!

No, seriously, it's really because in America, hunting has never been a privilege reserved for the wealthy/nobility. The average American hunter is NOT rich!! We could never afford the fine weapons used by European hunters, so a demand for such weapons sufficient to sustain a trade in them just never developed. What small demand for such items that does exist here has been well filled by imports from Germany, Austria, Belgium, and of course, England! Of course, there have been a very few custom master gunmakers in America who have made such items from time to time, but the demand would not keep many of them in business very long!

(BTW, I have a nice Heym M55/77 O/U with a 20 Ga. over a .30/'06, but it is just too nice to take out in the woods! I have fired it a couple of times at a rifle range, and the '06 is very accurate!)

Since U.S. citizens can (generally) own as many guns as they desire, there is no need for a combination gun. We can buy a gun tailored to our specific quarry.

Since U.S. citizens are not taxed on their firearms as in some parts of Europe, there is no financial disincentive to owning many guns.

Since many combination guns are needlessly heavy (having one, two, or three extra barrels), they are not popular here.

George

GeorgeS

in Germany the number of guns for a hunter are not limited but every hunter has combos. I think the reason is

- history and especially hunting tradition which
is very important in Germany
- German mentality, beeeing prepared for every
situation
- when we habe open season its mostly open for
all animals


Burkhard

My wifes drilling is a better handling "shotgun" than my Browning Citori.
It weighs less too.

quote:

- German mentality, beeeing prepared for every
situation

As I mentioned above when your hunting in Vermont from the middle of Sept. to the middle of Nov. and your carrying a shotgun your not prepared! That is unless you don't want to shoot a bear or a bird.

The bear season in VT used to run from April 1 thru Dec 31.

To add that my drilling weighs 7 lbs with it's 23.5" barrels. Once I got it I never looked at other shotguns for upland. It's that good.

One could find such a gun for two grand or so. Some pay more than that for shotguns. I see the drilling as a very interesting gun.

I just skimmed over the drillings on Gun Broker and stopped at this one as it's similar to mine. However it has the long barrels and to me it would not handle the same. The one before it in 12ga with the Nazi stuff I know are heavy long guns.



This one is way over priced and does not even have a scope with it! Note the bases for the claw mounts. I would want that on a drilling.

Also beware that the 16 ga old Euro guns may have short chambers. Thats marked in mm's on the barrel usually. Mine were cut open to 3" long ago. Otherwise for upland a 16 ga or 20 would be ideal.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=37147693

Savage99 you are correct about the chambers. Also I never found a 12 gauge drilling that felt right. Krieghoff 16 gauge over 243 fits great and covers the ground well for PA hunter.

A Sauer like mine just came into the Armory in New Preston, CT. It has the nice, to me, 23.5" bbls. and is in 16X16X8-57JR.

If your in CT or Eastern NY it would be worth looking at to get a feel for this particular size gun. I looked this one over and the price is up there for what you get at $2600. It's well used but thats good in a way as then you may actually take it hunting!

Nothing like buying a new gun and then not using it because it's too nice.

That Sauer on Gunbroker, depending on condition, may not be overpriced. Sidelock Sauers are not that common.

As to the short 65mm (2-1/2") chambers, I'd rather have short, original chambers than ones that are lengthened. More valuable and the ammo is readily available. Lengthening chambers to 2-3/4" takes a gun out of proof, it may be safe but I'd be wary. Going to 3" is just dangerous on these older guns.

MTCW.


Sav.99, does the one in New Preston have claw mounts?

Rob

Recoil Rob,

The one at the Armory seems to have the same claw bases that mine does but no scope or mounts. In fact it looks like this one does.



This particular gun at the Armory is well worn. There is almost no finish left on the action but it has a brown patena on it. There is no pitting that I saw. Yet the cross bolt closes very firm and needs some help from the lever.

The stock may be refinished and thats well worn and the wood is dented in many places.

The barrels are pretty good with maybe 80% blue and that's the best part of the gun looks wise. The rifle caliber is marked over only in that the numeral 8 as in 8X57 is stamped over and larger than normal. Thats on the rib and you can see that milled out section where the rifle caliber is normaly etched or engraved. It's just that one numeral thats out of context. The owner of this consignment gun seems confused as to what the actual rifle cartridge is and the price tag as I found it read 7X57. I think that a new tag has been made out saying 8X57.

As to the length of the chambers I defer to the more expert on that topic. On this particular drilling it's marked 16 under the barrels but there is no numeral such as 65 or 65mm. The chambers seem to be about the same as mine and I have been firing the standard length shells in it for decades and buying them by the case. Thats proof enough for me. My chambers are longer than the shell and there is no necking down of the fired shell. I was told by the seller of my gun that it was checked for standard 16 ga and that has proven out.

The rib is also signed by a German smith or mfg. that I cannot recall.

The dealer said that the owner is sure that the gun is worth $2600 as price. As to that what can I say? If someone will pay $2600 then thats what it's worth!

When something like this first goes on the market the expectations of the seller(s) are high. If it sits for a while then it may become negotiable.

I mention this gun only as an example of the particular type that I like.

I went over this type of smaller 23.5" bbl. drilling in 16 ga with John Barsness who posts on 24hr and he rejected the concept. He wanted a drilling for sure but in a standard gage which he says is 12 and he wanted a bigger gun for lots of shooting. So be it. I still like this smaller gun for upland.

I will post this but I’m not looking at the repercussions of it. I have had enough people beat on me for today. Yes, in the past you were only allowed to own so many guns. But most of that has changed. Now its either none or all except for hand guns and full autos. Yes the seasons in Europe do overlap. But they also overlap here in Canada as well as in the USA. The simple fact is that Europeans like to buy things ONCE. I have been told that in a lot of European countries it takes 3 generations to pay for a house. I know for a fact that many European families have homes, furniture, guns and cars that have spanned many generations. Europe is old and land is at a premium as are jobs. People have gotten very used to pinching their pennies and buying the best so that it can be passed down to the children. Here in north America we live in a disposable society and we can afford to do it. You don’t find cheap anything in Europe Everything is built to pass on and the price tends to reflect that. I cleaned 3 MX 2000 Perazzi combos today. All owned by the same guy. I think that conservatively the 3 would be worth $40,000.00 Canadian retail. That would buy a truck load of Savages and Mossbergs. Rod Henrickson

quote:

Combination guns are two to three times more expensive

A little off track but there is another style of combo gun from the Old World that makes a bit of sense to me for hunting in the New World, that being a Cape Gun. While agreeing with the quote above in general terms, there are Cape Guns available for a song. I have one such gun made in Belgium, chambered in .405 Win, and 12 Ga. Jones underlever and quite lively in the hands, I think it would do just dandy on timberland creatures such as bear, elk , deer etc.

Sav99,

I like mine too in 16ga. If the older ones are only marked 16, the they're 65mm chambers which equates to 2-1/2" shells. Guns proofed for 2-3/4" shells would be marked 16 over 70mm.

Chambers are designated by the length of a fired shell, there fore a 2-3/4" 16 shell only measure about 2-3/8" unfired.

I doubt your gun was opened up to 3" chambers as 3" 16ga shells were probably never commercially available. Chambers that long would make the breech walls too thin where they taper down to the barrel proper. I'm just curious as to how you measured it, did you have a chamber gauge?

Rob

I did not use a chamber gage. I just ran the depth rod from a caliper and felt for the taper. It's not easy to do this and I took some time to detemine that indeed I was at that spot.

I asked a smith about this today in fact and he said that a chamber gage is the traditional way to measure it but anything that will catch the edge of the cone will do it.

Measuring mine some more I estimate that the end of the chamber is about 2.9" long.