Picked up my 404 Jeffery last week. It is built on a 1909 Argentine DWM M98 action and has a Lothar Walther barrel. I was out in the desert this past weekend so I decided to give the 404 a go.

I set everything up and shot 4 rounds (400 grain Woodliegh solids) that chronographed at 2,240 fps and grouped decently at 100 yards. The scope on the rifle is a 1.5-5x Leupold with Heavy Duplex reticle that does not allow super precision aiming at 100 yards.

Anyway, I shot another 4 rounds of 400 grain Woodliegh softs at the same 2,240 fps. The group also showed some promise.

Now for the BAD NEWS! I started to shoot another 4 round group and as I inspected the brass after each shot, I started to notice bulging around the bottom of the case. A couple of the cases actually had a slight line around the area that was bulged. Like a precurser to case head separation.

I definitely think I have a case of LUG SETBACK. There also now seems to be a little bit of extra play in the bolt when it is fully closed. I inserted a bolt from another 1909 Argentine M98 action that I have and that bolt did not seem to have the same "play" in it.

Very frustrating, since I had the bolt and action heat treated after the action work. I was really frustrated with it and didn't want to think about it today. However, I have to start thinking about what to do to get it fixed. I'm sure it will be a long and expensive repair.

I really don't know much about this. Does Lug Setback damage the barrel at all? I hope that the Lothar Walther barrel is still good.

Can the action be salvaged? Can I use another M98 bolt and have it headspaced and heat treated?

Help!


Tim

quote:

Does Lug Setback damage the barrel at all?

No it doesn't damage the barrel, bad news is the barrel will need to be set back a thread to reheadspace it after you get the action fixed.

I had almost the same problem with my 09, it was a PIA to fix, and if I didn't have so many dollars tied up in when I did it I would have scrapped it and started over.

Options to fix it ( none real attractive ).

1. pull the barrel from the action
2. diagnose the action, then repair, odds are the lugs will need reworking, and once its staightened out, send it back to the heat treater again. Which leads to:

What did you have done when it was treated, how thick did you treat? How hard? And by whom?

How much have you got tied up in the stock? If you have a ton of dollars tied up in this ( suspect your past the point of no return like I was ).

Another mauser action just might be cheaper, you might be able to get a FN or a BRNO which will fit back in the stock, and you can salvage your bottom metal.

One question was your bolt sticking after firing?

Anyway what has happened just blows trust me I been there done that and if my smith hadn't done all the work over on his dime, it would have cost a lot to straighten mine out. Time was the factor, and I know a lot of labor is involved fixing this.

If you don't have a bunch tied up in surface grinding your 09, you really might look at stripping out the parts you can, and getting a not so soft action. The reason you might consider another action is you might get by with not needing a full turn of your barrel on the headspace issue, depending on if you have iron sights or not.

In short there is no easy fix I know of, and one of the big reasons I preach heat treating old mausers, and don't have much enthusiasm for building them anymore.

First thing to do is get a headspace guage on the rifle, make sure its a lug issue.. Another thought did you heat treat the bolt also? If you didn't treat your bolt you just might get lucky, and just need to fix or replace and treat the bolt.

Bottom line BIG Bummer if the headspace quage test comes out negative.

Schromfs coment about the headspace lead me to wonder if it was correctly headspaced to start with. I am curous to know if the "ring" on the brass you noticed increased as you fired more rounds. If it was present from the start it may have had a headspace issue to begin with. You may get lucky and it will not be lug setback at all.

Before you're convinced you have lug setback/excessive headspace, get someone with a .404 J headspace gauge and check it. My CH4D dies will set the shoulder back so far on the case that it shows massive headspace. I had to neck them up to .45 cal. and re-neck them back down until they would just fit in the chamber to keep from losing cases. All this supposes that you are using reloads and not factory new cases/ammo. Regardless, have someone check the headspace with the proper gauges.

Shumba you may get more help on big bores.

We hear it again. Berlin DWMs (09 Argentines, 08 Brazilians). Beautiful old-world craftsmanship, weak metalurgy.

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
Before you're convinced you have lug setback/excessive headspace, get someone with a .404 J headspace gauge and check it. My CH4D dies will set the shoulder back so far on the case that it shows massive headspace. I had to neck them up to .45 cal. and re-neck them back down until they would just fit in the chamber to keep from losing cases. All this supposes that you are using reloads and not factory new cases/ammo. Regardless, have someone check the headspace with the proper gauges.

I agree. There are so many things that could have caused your problem that I wouldn't do a darn thing until I had somebody with a depth micrometer check things out.

Shumba

If you are experiencing lug set back there will difficulty in opening the bolt after firing. Since you did not mention that it is possible you are describing a chamber with slightly oversize diameter. I would really need to see and measure the cases to be sure.

Also it is possible to have headspace issues from non standardized dimensions on this cartridge. There are conflicting blueprints on this round that have dealt reamer and die makers fits. Ruger discontinued their 77 RSM for that very reason. And of course as previously mentioned you may be setting the shoulder back during the reloading process.

Tim,

Bummer dude! I hope you get this fixed without too much nausea.

One your zeroing issue, try this fix:

http://www.steyrscout.org/sszeroing.htm

You can also use any target with a square aiming point, and align the edges of the heavy wires with the edges of the aiming square.

jim

Never build more than a 7x57 on a 1909, I don't care what anyone else will tell you

There is a way to check lug setback without disassembling the rifle. Assuming the headspace is correct, insert the go gauge in the chamber with the gauge under the extractor and against the bolt face of the stripped bolt (no firing pin assembly). Close the bolt, feel the resistance on the gauge. Now with the bolt closed on the gauge, set a dial indicator in contact with the rear of the bolt and try to move it fore and aft. You will see any setback when you pull the bolt to the rear. If you experience no movement, you probably have an excess headspace issue. You can correct that by setting the barrel back but would probably end up with an unsightly gap in the barrel channel of the stock. Remedy the situation by sizing your brass only enough to enter the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Never build more than a 7x57 on a 1909, I don't care what anyone else will tell you

Thats B.S. David Miller and many other Smiths have built big bore caliber guns on recasehardened 1909 Argentines for years. Jim Carmichal wrote about his David Miller .338 Mag on a 1909 Argentine Action in an Outdoor Life article sometime back, advising that he had shot hundreds and hundreds of rounds in that .338 with absolutely no trouble whatsoever. Many others have done the same.

To rush to judgment without knowing exactly what is wrong with the gun is ridiculous.

I have had set back on three Mod. 98 Mausers. One was a 22-250 that I was running an experiment on and overloaded and the other two were on wildcats based on the .404 case. The lugs set back into the action rather than the lugs deforming. The 22-250 was so bad that a load equivalant to a 22 hornet load resulted in a terribly stuck bolt. I mean hard to open. As a side note; The two types of .404 brass I use are a bit soft. roger

Jim Carmichel wrote about problems with Mauser 1909 lug set-back at least as far back as the mid-1970s, in his book, "The Modern Rifle". I have personally written about the risk of lug set-back with Mausers for the last seven years, anyway, on various hunting forums.

To this day, I am amazed at the number of folks who have not taken these warnings seriously, and have then suffered the consequences, and mostly because they don't want to invest the money in proper rehardening, don't realize its importance, or for some reason they think the warnings amount to some sort of urban myth or Chicken Little-type alarum that has no bearing on reality.

Here's the honest truth: You have several choices with most of these surplus Mauser actions: If you're building a glitter-baby/safe-queen that won't get used, do nothing in terms of action rehardening, then dream on. If you wish to use the rifle, but would rather step over a dollar to pick up a dime up-front, or you're listening to the advice of a non-shooting/non-hunting would-be riflesmith, and as a result you don't or won't invest in a proper rehardening job, again, do nothing and enjoy the results you get.

But if you wish to use the rifle and you want lasting, trouble-free results, insist that your riflesmith send the action to a special industrial laboratory for proper, scientific rehardening.

For the record, David Miller most certainly had the action of Carmichel's 1909 Argentine/338 Win. Mag. action rehardnened upon its inception. In fact, I asked Dave about rehardening a number of years ago, and his answer was, "ALWAYS!"..........

My one personal philosophy, as a consumer: Either the riflesmith in question is smart enough to have Mauser actions properly rehardened, or else he isn't smart enough to build me a rifle in the first place. It's as simple as all that............

AD

i have only encountered this situation three times. all of them caused the bolt to be very hard to open with even normal loads as craftsman stated. once the barrel was off it was very easy to measure, on all three actions the receiver deformed and not the bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Jim Carmichel wrote about problems with Mauser 1909 lug set-back at least as far back as the mid-1970s, in his book, "The Modern Rifle". I have personally written about the risk of lug set-back with Mausers for the last seven years, anyway, on various hunting forums.

To this day, I am amazed at the number of folks who have not taken these warnings seriously, and have then suffered the consequences, and mostly because they don't want to invest the money in proper rehardening, don't realize its importance, or for some reason they think the warnings amount to sort of urban myth or Chicken Little-type alarum that has no bearing on reality.

Here's the honest truth: You have several choices with most of these surplus Mauser actions: If you're building a glitter-baby/safe-queen that won't get used, do nothing in terms of action rehardening, then dream on. If you wish to use the rifle, but would rather step over a dollar to pick up a dime up-front, or you're listening to the advice of a non-shooting/non-hunting would-be riflesmith, and as a result you don't or won't invest in a proper rehardening job, again, do nothing and enjoy the results you get.

But if you wish to use the rifle and you want lasting, trouble-free results, insist that your riflesmith send the action to a special industrial laboratory for proper, scientific rehardening.

For the record, David Miller most certainly had the action of Carmichel's 1909 Argentine/338 Win. Mag. action rehardnened upon its inception. In fact, I asked Dave about rehardening a number of years ago, and his answer was, "ALWAYS!"..........

My one personal philosophy, as a consumer: Either the riflesmith in question is smart enough to have Mauser actions properly rehardened, or else he isn't smart enough to build me a rifle in the first place. It's as simple as all that............

AD

Very well said Allen. And another issue is that of having both lugs fully engaged. If you have a smith who doesn't lap those lugs so that there is good contact by both bolt lugs then your just going to have trouble because one will eventually set back to meet the other over time and you will get a sticky bolt.

Shumba

I would like to know what company did the heat treating for you, and which process they used?

Again ...... what Allen said !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
Again ...... what Allen said !!!

What a bunch of wankers!

None of you know what is wrong yet you are all spouting off at the mouth. I doubt this is headspace.

Also, if you'd read shumba's report he did claim to have had the action "heat treated". Of course just what type of heat treatment the receiver got is also yet to be determined.

I need to look at my records to be sure, but I know the heat treating company was based in Salt Lake City. Pretty certain it was Blanchard, but need to confirm this.

The action did have to be opened up in the front somewhat to accommodate the larger 404 Jeffery case.

I will have my local gunsmith (he did not do the action and chambering work, but finished the rifle) check out the rifle with the "go" and "no go" gauges.

I will have him also check the chamber dimensions to be certain, but the chamber was cut (threaded, crowned, etc.) by Lothar Walther.

Thanks.

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
Again ...... what Allen said !!!

What a bunch of wankers!

What's a Wanker? Is that some sort of aboriginal term? roger

Maybe it's just me, but from some of the responses I think a few missed the point that the action was re-hardened. I kind of wonder since there are several variations of the .404 if this doesn't have something to do with it? Now that's just a wild guess, but I would think a chamber cast would be in order along with some of the other things mentioned.

Terry

With all the gread modern actions out it still amazes me on how many people still spend large amounts of money on 100 year old metal. Or even 60 to 70 year old metal.

For or even less money one can buy a very good modern action that is made to take a scope has the latest metal in it.

Then build a very nice rifle one doesn't have to worry about the metal.

p dog shooter,

Some people prefer the old classics to the new Remchesters. Our sport is not always about practicality. Under your rationale, people should be trading in their old Rigby double rifles for Blasers. It would also make it difficult to explain why 1st & 2nd generation Colt SAA's cost more than the new ones.

A Ford Tauras or Toyota Camry would have been much more cost effective to buy and operate, but I like the look/style/features of the Mercedes, so I bought it instead. Just different tastes is all.

Tim

a wanker is about like a git and sort of like a pillock.

saying a 1909 should never be chambered in anything more than a 7x57 is a specious argument. any round can be overloaded and has nothing to do with the cartridge.

i've got a 338mag built on a 1909 argentine i finished 13 years ago. the 1st ammo i fired off was most of a batch of 100 rds i'd put up for a ruger m77 and were max loads out of the speer manual. there's nothing whatsoever wrong w/ the action. last time i bought a barrel - and i won't name the maker because i'm sure the effect it'd have on the opinions of same by some of you - i asked about re-heat treating mausers and they said in over 40 years they'd never had any instance wherein that'd have been necessary PROVIDED THE AMMO WAS WITHIN INDUSTRY STANDARDS! if it WERE necessary, one would think they'd have been having guns returned left and right and that's not the case. everyone who's had lug setback with reloads, right off the bat i discount all those data points because that's a great big unknown. so how many instances of lug setback can someone come up with when the ammo fired was factory. not "factory spec" or "i think i loaded to factory pressures" but off the shelf factory?

besides, the symptoms described in this case don't sound much like lug setback to me anyway.

Half the 1909's I've seen had lug setback with the orginal 7.65 cartridge

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Half the 1909's I've seen had lug setback with the orginal 7.65 cartridge

So, that doesn't mean that with proper carbon augmentation & heat treating they won't work. Besides, how many is half of the 1909'S you've seen anyway? You make it sounds like lots.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Half the 1909's I've seen had lug setback with the orginal 7.65 cartridge

So, that doesn't mean that with proper carbon augmentation & heat treating they won't work. Besides, how many is half of the 1909'S you've seen anyway? You make it sounds like lots.

Define lots?

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:


Define lots?

You know, scads.


I guess the more appropriate question is, how many have you seen, 2?

It's the Holidays play nice or Santa won't stop and see you.

My input, little as it is...I had a custom rifle built on a hot wildcat using the 1909 action. Have had no problems with its strength using really hot loads...so the dissenting view as they need to be heat treated makes a valid point.
But since there is a difference (like my experience with it being just fine...) is it possible or even probable that some actions of the 1909 were heat treated or stronger than others...in other words, variations in strength from the factory would account for the disparity of strength?
Some good, some not?
Comments?
Best Regards, Tom

Shumba once one goes to all the trouble of fully sporterizing milltary action it is not the same old classic. All it is is a hunk of steel that some one has done a lot of work on.

If some one did the same amount of work on a fine double ect I would say the same thing.

Long gone are the days when it payed to sporterize a milltary action. When gunsmiths were making a buck a hr it would pay to do the work. Now days at 60 to 70 dollars a hr it just doesn't make sense.

To use something that is inferior to moden actions when one is investing that kind of money.

I have a couple mil sporters never again. They are just to much trouble for what one gets.

The last custom job I had done was on a ruger MKII stainless I dought I will ever have trouble with lug set back or even the thought of it. Or the worry about it being properly heat treated ect.

You can go and play with those old actions one is never sure of it you want for me they are just that old actions.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:


Define lots?

You know, scads.


I guess the more appropriate question is, how many have you seen, 2?

More than 2, but less than a hundred!

.

Does Blanchard do a cyanide type process for surface hardening?

LD

PS A wanker is the equivalent of a jag-off, or so a female Australian Air Force flight surgeon informed me (circ. 1994).

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:

PS A wanker is the equivalent of a jag-off, ...

LD,
That would have been "jack-off"

Remember four words.. Metal Treaters Minneapolis
Minnesota.
Timan

Bulging due to an oversize chamber usually occurs on one side only. The case lies against the bottom of the chamber and can only expand up.
Excess headspace will cause the "stretch" marks, and usually a some what flattened primer.
If the bolt opens ok it hasn't been set back.
Head space can be checked by adding layers of "scotch" tape to the face of a new factory round. To do this leave the safety in the middle,
remove the bolt and put the case undere the extractor.
Good Luck!

That would be kind of a junkyard way of checking headspace, but you would not be able to determine if you had setback unless you did it the way I explained a dozen or so posts back. And by the way, It is MTI (Metal Treaters Inc.) ask for Chris and they are in Saint Paul, not Minneapolis.

As I said in my original post get a headspace guage on this. You not having a sticky bolt is encouraging, as that is the classic setback fault. But everything all of us post is pure speculation until you know what is happening.

I am curious though what did you do on your bottom metal on this for the 404? It has nothing to do with your problem BTW, I am just curious.

Concerning the metal treating on the old mausers, I am not sure of the exact date and maybe Alf can chime in with the exact date, but 1921-22 is the date the mauser factory did the change in heat treat methods. This is also why I am such a big fan of BRNO versions of the old mausers, they were all made with modern heat treat methods. I have posted in the past that the 98/29 BRNO's are one of my prefered military actions for custom builds, and G33/40's are sweet but expensive and difficult to find anymore.

To all the nay sayers on the 09's and older actions, you must remember that the heat treating was still being worked out as a science then. You never see a old mauser blow up because they were too brittle, they built them the way they did on purpose, and they weren't designed for high pressure rounds.

Which leads me to believe that again you just might get lucky, the 404 isn't high pressure, and this cartridge was chambered by Jefferies on essentially these same actions, and certainly many were made prior to that 1920's date above.

Again get a headspace guage on it and go from there.

quote:

I really don't know much about this. Does Lug Setback damage the barrel at all? I hope that the Lothar Walther barrel is still good.

Can the action be salvaged? Can I use another M98 bolt and have it headspaced and heat treated?

Help!

The barrel will NOT be damaged. The only damage thus far would be a setback of the locking surfaces in the receiver ring (not the bolt lugs!!).

Before you PANIC, take it to a gunsmith that has headspace gauges for that round, and get the headspace checked!! If the headspace is excessive, then you go from there. You MAY have to get a new receiver, but maybe not!