Everything seems to be very "hush-hush", but there is more than speculation that the Winchester/USRAC team is working on a couple of new, small cal (22 for sure) factory chamberings. Based on a drastically stortened WSM case..... Super Short mags?

Seems to me that we might not really need another 22..... LOL! But a shortened "WSSM" in 25 cal would be very, very interesting..... Anyone have any info, rumors or thoughts? Dutch.

My first reaction is a gag reflex.

Another junkish concoction of a cartridge that no one needs, will not feed out of a magazine and is suitable only for a benchrest single shot action. The big makers need to leave the design of short fat BR cartridges to the custom BR gun builders, there are hundreds of short fat 22's and 6mm's already.

Nope, I ain't a BR gunsmith. Those gents are in a different world.

Winchester should concentrate on something like the 416 Howell. And other bullet diameters based on the Howell case dimensions. At least factory rifles in these chambering have some use and will sell! They had a chance with this line of cartridges in 1981.

According to the info I have, there is going to be a .22, 6mm, and .25 on a shortened WSM case. They are to be called the Winchester Super Mags. My feeling is the same as Jack's, gag. It would seem to me that if they were going to make a .25, they would leave the case full length to compete with the .257 Wthby, not the .25-06. All shortening the cases is going to do is make them even more difficult to feed.

That's all rifle makers do anymore: make new cartridges. We have more than enough cartridges as it is; I wish they would instead concentrate their efforts on improving the quality of their rifles. While I'm at it I might as well wish to sprout wings...

We do have plenty of cartridges to play with now but my 2 cents is new ones are always fun to play with.

FWIW, here's what I think. For most varminters and bench resters, the feed thing is irrelevant. For the rest, if the factories would get over themselves and adopt a simple rotary magazine system instead of the archaic feed rails, the feeding issue would be entirely moot. But, I suppose $20 per gun is too much.....

Do we need another 22 and 6 mm varmint/benchrest case? Probably not, but it's going to be fun playing with one......

My thoughts on the 25 are quite the other direction. The 250 Savage and the Roberts are moribund, unfortunately. This new case would have just a bit more capacity as the Savage, which would park it at Roberts performance, fitting in a short rifle. We do not need another 25/06, we need a good beginners heavy varmint / light deer cartridge, suitable for a small frame, youth/ladies rifle. JMO, Dutch.

any word on a possible 6.5 cartridge? i was kinda hoping they'd go that way when they made their new small cals.

i'm with taos on this one, new rounds, mean something new to play with.

John Lewis--forgive my ignorance, but I am trying to learn what I can, and I am intrigued by the .25 caliber "short magnum" concept--why is a short cartridge more difficult to feed? And, why would we not expect such a cartridge to be ballistically competitive with the .257 Weatherby, along the same lines that the .300 WSM is comparable to the .300 Win Mag (at least according to the manufacturer's claims)? Thanks...

Dutch,
The rotary magazine is something I've kicked around for some time. It definitely would take care of 99% of the feeding problems that are out there today. The only problem that you run into with that system is the increased width of the reciever, but I haven't given up yet. There's nothing that would feed smoother and easier if properly executed. Of course, there's the nostalgia crowd that seems to balk anything that isn't Mauser based, so that can cause problems with sales, but probably easily overcome.

Dutch~
I heard the same rumor early summer when they shelved the 338WSM. At the time, the source, a departed Olin employee, indicated Olin wanted to go to the smaller calibers thinking that was where their market existed. I'm disappointed in their shelving the WSM line. I could care less about these smaller calibers and short cases. There are enough of them to chose from.

Matt, I'm not enough of an engineer to be talking, really, but it would seem that a rotary magazine would be workable if it had a "chimney" into the action. Double stack in the magazine well, single stack inside the receiver? It might dictate a magazine cutout, another no-no for the purists.

Bob, I, too had hopes for a 35WSM. No biggie to rebarrel an existing 300 WSM action, though, and since I handload everything, it really doesn't effect my life, whether they do, or don't. JMO, Dutch.

I have nothing against new rounds in and of themselves. As far as that goes the more the merrier. My objection is that they come at the expense of better rifles. The manufacturers know that all they have to do to sell more of their mediocre rifles is to create new rounds for them. And it's our fault because we fall for it. In fact, it is what we want; we demand it from them.

Let me reverse the question with the following thought experiment: what if there were some type of moritorium on new rounds? How would the manufacturers then compete? I can think of three ways: lower prices, increase marketing pressure, or increase quality.

Some people prefer many new rounds; I prefer better out-of-the-box quality. Some people like chocolate ice cream; others like vanilla...

[ 09-27-2002, 00:32: Message edited by: Wismon ]

ZZZzzzzzzz.

Another cartridge to fill an already saturated niche. Ho-hum.

George

If winchester wants to make some money all they have to do it to come out with the M70 classic in 404 Jeffery. IMHO.

Cartridge designs have been coming and going since they were first concieved. Its inevitable.

Savage increased the quality of their rifles this year (cosmetically) and bumped the price. Tit for tat, no free lunches. If they all would just quit using cheap parts the overall quality would improve dramatically but this is the age of plastic and computer aided design, it aint gonna happen. Unfortunatley degrees in design engineering do not generally require hunting experience.

Lets see what they come up with and go from there. They (Winchester) likes to hope for the next 308 or 243 but Ill hold my judgement until it actually happens.

Dutch and Triggerguard,
Steve Nelson in Corvallis has adapted a Man. Schonauer rotary to a Mauser 98. It looks very nice. Don't know if he has it stocked and shooting yet.

chic

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough.

What possible difference can it make to anyone if a manufacturer brings out a cartridge they are not interested in? Its kind of like I don't care for purple cars, but no one is making me buy them, so where is the issue?

Most of us know enough about rifles and cartridges to sit at a table at a marketing meeting with say a Winchester company. So everyone gives their opinion and the guy next to you say's "lets bring out a version of the WSM's in smaller calibers. The WSM's are selling hot and big calibers just don't sell" Everyone nod's ok and then it's your turn to speak.

You say "I think we have too many cartridges now, don't bring out any more"

Will you get invited back?

I have a 7mm WSM on order. I don't need it. Once you have just one 30/06 it's hard to justify another rifle. You can only carry one at a time.

In industry there are machines that can "feed" anything. There has to be a way to feed short cartridges. Heck I have a rifle that feeds .22 shorts and long rifles from the same system. It's reliable too!

The idea of a new case, short and fat, with an H2O cap. of about 50 to 65 gr. to the top of the neck is great. Exciting to longrange shooters and accuacy buffs. The quality of WW brass is doubtful but ya gotta start somewhere. Why bother with a .25 cal when there are so few accurate longrange bullets available? Because some people like the quarter bore. Why have a .277 dia. bullet and a .284 bullet when they are within .007 of each other? Because some people like the sound of "two seventy" or "7mm" better than the other one. There are people that still like Pre-64s when the push feeds are a lot safer. And then there are Mausers.... Who knows why we like the things that we like?

Generally, the thought is, the harm comes from wasted effort in creating crap like silly carts at the expence of actually inproving products, or making anything actually new.

Tho you can not hardly blame manufactorers, when every they try some thing new and it dont work the first day off the line, the consumer is generally not very kind or understanding.

So we can looks forward to endless cratridge engenering. New carts every year in the same old guns. Just like GM gives you the same car every few years with a new skin on it.

What will they do that the 22/250 & such are not already doing

Don, would you really want to get invited back? Think of this scenario instead of just coming out with a "don't do anything" speech.

It is now your turn to speak after the lets bring out a short fat, toad cartridge. "There is a mainstream of hunters who are getting very upset with the poor quality product that not only Winchester, but Remington, Savage and Ruger are turning out. They share their views and displeasures over the internet and reputations can be made and lost by the foolish moves motivated only to line the pockets of a company. You will spend $12 million in research and developement and tooling for this rifle. I suggest you use that money to take some positive steps to make some major improvements to the product. And advertise what you are doing and how you are doing it. Make some positive moves to turn out the kind of product and recreate the reputation that made Winchester a well respected name in firearms. Restore it's roll in the market place and bury the competition."

Do you thing they would invite you back? If they wouldn't then you would not want to be there supplying the drivel that they seem to be feeding on these days.

[ 09-27-2002, 07:52: Message edited by: Customstox ]

I think that the RUMS and the WSM's have proven, without a shadow of a doubt, that the buyer on the street will buy a new gun if the new cartidge is "interesting". Anyone bought a 376 Steyer? Me neither. The WSM has proven you can market something with less power than an existing cartridge, and do very well. If it is interesting.

AND

That buyer will buy that new cartridge in a "middle of the road" gun. Lots and lots of Winchesters and Remingtons and Brownings. Not so many Savages (no one wants to buy that "cheap" gun).

BUT

At the same time, the premium makers such as the Sako's, Steyers, the Sauers, and the custom shops have been running half capacity.

PERHAPS

USRAC understands the buying public better than the "firearms junky" community here. Even though it doesn't need a new gun, afforded an excuse, the firearms buying public will go out and buy one. If it is priced low enough so that the Missus doesn't pitch a fit, or the guy can sneak the layaway payment past her every month. Right now, new cartridges are the excuse that seems to work well.

Personally, I think a case with a capacity around 40 Gr. of water, marketed in a Mini mauser or other 223 length action, might give ME an excuse to go out and buy a new rifle. This is all about playing, for me, anyway.

In the end, if the cartridge really gets my juices going, I'll buy another rifle in that chambering, might even be a Sauer or something really nice, like a true custom with exhibition walnut...... JMO, Dutch.

Crusader, This new 25 WSM won't have the same case capacity as the 257 Wthby, it is shortened from the 300 WSM size. In the full length version it should have about the same capacity. I'm a big 25cal fan and like the idea of a new 25, but once again Win seems intent on making something that is almost good, but not quite there. Why bother with a ballistic repeat of the 257 Robts.

The short fat cartridges are hard to feed because there is very little body taper. The right amount of body taper allows the cartridge to be gradually funnelled up into the chamber. To c ompound this problem, the WSMs are also too wide to properly work well in existing actions. There simply isn't enough room there to make them work properly.

Short Mags, Ultra mags where will it all end. The alleged new 257WSM won't do anything that my 257Wby or 257AI won't do. As far as todays rifles go make mine a pre 64 M70 (preferablt a fwt) or I'll go see my favorite gunsmith and have one built. IMHO the mfg's should spend their money on increasing the quality of their products.

I really like stuff that's alreay come and almost gone - .250 savage, .257 Roberts. I guess if I got to chose the next super cartridge it would flop as well. Some of us are just too wierd for the mass marketers to cater to. Thank goodness for gunsmiths.

[ 09-27-2002, 20:55: Message edited by: Loren ]

One thing to remember that adds confusion to the new rifle, new cartridge, or better quality issue when talking Winchester is that it is two closely alinged companies rather than one. A cartridge rifle modification combo involves both allow shared development costs and creates a new product for both companies. Either a new round or rifle changes has to be bourn by one alone.

Whatever the business reasoning, I would be very interested if the new rounds come pakaged in a extra short action Model 70. If the simply throw a spacer in the current WSM version, I have no interest at all

Fireplug

Maybe I'm wandering off topic, but seeing people flogging some US gun maker's reputation made me decide to bring my own .02 krona worth (yeah, I'm Swedish).

People so interested in guns and shooting as you people are, here in Sweden, don't really buy american guns, they are considered inferior from a quality and touch&feel perspective.

Perhaps this is caused by swedish gun laws (no more than 6 guns per person, by some reason) making people go for more top-notch quality. In my gun rack, I see only Sako and Beretta. OK, maybe one Antonio Zoli

The same goes with the optics, I bet Zeiss is more common in the Swedish forests than Bushnell, Leupold and Tasco added together.

American guns i.e. Winchester, Ruger, Savage etc are cheap here but not too many seem to want to buy one. If you want to go the budget trail the CZ's would be a better choice, I believe and apparently more than I make the same decision.

Remington has a somewhat better rep than the others, Browning's reputation for their BAR is quite good btw.

So here's my question: does the ordinary american riflebuyer prefer a dozen of cheap guns and cheap scopes (in a large variety of calibers) than a fewer number of top-notch guns with high-quality optics? Which the scandinavian gunowner would, or maybe we're just forced to this consumer behaviour?

I've had a few glasses of wine, so If I've expressed myself bluntly or snobbishly please bear with me... And I know that great guns ARE manufactured in the US, but few of them seem to find their way here and the mainstream products - I can't really call them great guns... Sorry.

Regards,
/HerrBerg

I would have to say without a doubt in my mind, that the average American would reather have 4 or more cheep rifles then one quality rifle. Even if the 4 cheep rifles are completely redundent in preformance.

That said, there are still many Americans who crave and will seek out real quality rifles. Tho the persons buying this class of rifle are not people with a few guns either. They usually have just as many expensive rilfes as the cheep rifle guys have cheep.

I guess we just like to have more, any way we can afford it.

There are lots of ways to launch a 40-70 grain bullet but only a couple if you prefer to send a 250-300 gr. bullet down range. Why not look at that part of the spectrum. Someone mentioned the Howell family of cartridges; they would do nicely as long as the majors released them in a bore diameter above .323". Okie John.

Herberg, one thing to remember is that America is at least as diversified as all of Europe. Maybe more. In some areas, we have lots of different game to hunt, in others it's deer and maybe a turkey or a duck. Still, that's three different guns, right there.

Also, don't forget to throw in the pistols. Many here have a couple of plinkers, 22's and a couple of decent revolvers and or semi-auto's.

So there is about two to four pieces.

Then, we usually have more than one shotgun. An upland piece and a waterfouling piece. Maybe a trap or clays gun, and a small gauge.

Two or more pieces.

Then, rifles. A couple of rimfires, one or two big game rifles, maybe varminters or target rifles.

Two or more pieces.

Before you know it, you have a closet full. Also, we don't have the 'hurdles' for gun-ownership many European countries do. If you are not a convicted criminal or psycho, you can buy a gun. Which means that many people with only a very casual interest in shooting or hunting own firearms.

People like that don't buy $1,000 guns, they buy "a 270" or "a 12 gauge pump" off the used rack the week before the season starts. JMO, Dutch.

You need to remember your audience on this forumn is not a true perspective of the buying public. I think a majority of Americans prefer cheap and many, or cheap and few to few and expensive. I think very few of us on this board are buying "new" rifles in new calibers, we rtend to look for the original and quality. Manufacturers are not selling to us, the informed shopper who understands there is no difference between the WHATEVER SUPERMAG and the 30-06 for our purposes. Bottom line, new sells to the masses, and thats what companies provide.

BTW- I know this is not the question the original thread is asking about, but this is more fun!!

Gentlmen,

come to think of it Elmer Keith was right " a perfect solution to non excisting problem"

Winchester should improve the quality of their rifles and camber them in nice classic, well spread rounds.

Bear claw, I agree a 404 would be nice.

Customstok,

Of course you would not say that as you know that "we" have in our catalog the Custom Ultimate Classic, Custom Sporter Short Action, M-70 Custom Take Down, Custom Safari Express, Custom African Express and the others that you know about like the Extreme Weather. Then there are the high grade 94's!

Of course you know that we had built a new plant in New Haven 10 years ago and adopted ISO mfg.

As I have said I would not have ordered a new rifle except for the WSM's. I think many potential customers are the same.

Herrberg,

Pardon for saying but I find your post rather comical, and interesting.

No one in their right mind would rather have junk than quality, what a guy would rather have and what he can have is often two different things.

I have removed most of the cheap guns that Ive owned with the exception of one Savage model 110 that shoots as good as any gun I own and Ive made improvments of my own on it. The rest, although only a few, I consider to be of very good quality. This however is not because they costed an arm and a leg but is partially because of knowledge Ive gained right here and because Ive become very discriminate about selecting my guns.

Ill bet that wine isnt American either . Its understandable, we do the same thing.

Wstrnhuntr,

the wine was indeed italian, had it been the Swedish Absolut Vodka I would not sit here now writing a reply

You are right that noone in their right mind would rather have junk than quality rifles. But still: will the average newbie with USD3000 in his wallet spend this on 2 or 5 rifles?

When newbies asks "what first rifle should I buy" in svedish Internet forums, they inevitably get the answer "buy something in .30 or 6.5, use it for everything, and remember so spend at least as much money on the optics as you spend on the rifle".

So, maybe we scandinavians a) are more apt to use a not-so-perfect-calibre when hunting, as long as the optics are good and the overall quality of the rifles are good, or b) we're just boring and conservative.

Regards,
/HerrBerg

Dutch

I agree - we all need more guns! But "a couple of rimfires" ???