Don Martin 29

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Everyone nod's ok

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I can see those bobbing wodden heads now

Doug,

You have a point of course. Winchester is the one who made 1964 infamous. But they have offered a Super Grade also and brought back the CRF M-70.

The thread is on new cartridges and they sell more rifles. That's not all a company needs to do so we are both right.

The buying public is not so sophisticated either. Look at Savage dropping the 99 for lack of demand and all of these 45/70's selling in "Guide Guns" Ugh!

Herberg, doesn't everyone have at least a 10/22 over there? 22LR's are an absolute basic family need here, seems like. Very useful for small game (squirrels and such), plinking, pest control, etc. At $12/500, you can afford to shoot it, even if it's not the most accurate ammo.

I almost always have either a 22LR or a 223 in the truck, just in case I run into a skunk or a coyote.

In the end though, the firearms buying public in the US is not rational. If it were, we would still buy '99's in 250, 308 and 358, instead of 94's in 30/30 and guide guns in 45/70, as mentioned.

The key is, I think, that in the U.S, we don't have to be rational. It's not like buying a house, where we have huge transaction costs. We can go out, buy an absolute abomination of a rifle (say a braked 300 Ultra for hunting deer from a tree stand). If we buy a Ruginchester, we can get out of that rifle in 10 minutes for 70% of our cost, and trade into a 30/06 pump. Or a Vaquero, a new DVD player, or just get our money back. There is no serious penalty for "playing with something new". Personally, I like it that way.

When the 17 cal (HMR) rimfire came out, it was obvious this only filled a very minor niche (pest control / varminting at medium ranges where noise is a factor). However, it is NEAT, and the manufacturer can't even come close to supplying enough ammo. It is fun, it is intriguing because it is surprisingly accurate, it is new, and it is cheap enough to allow recreational (volume) shooting.

I think that is why the 30/30 lives, and other rounds come and gone. The 30/30 is fun enough, the rifles and ammo are cheap enough and the cartridge is powerful enough to meet requirements.

The 223 is the small call 30/30. I can buy remanufactured ammo for $12/50 that shoots MOA in my Savage bolt. Guess what I use for pest control? No WSSM will meet that.

For the WSSM to hang on long term, it has to be more than "neat". It also has to make economic sense for the shooter. JMO, Dutch.

I wish you hadn't mentioned the .17 WFM (or whatever it is) rimfire. I was at the range a few weeks ago and some jackass was shooting that new round. When the guy next to him asked what he was planning to shoot with it he replied, "deer". He said it was suitable for them because "...it would blow the head clean off." His justification for this was that we all ought "...to see what it does to a blob of clay."

I have visions of deer dying a slow lingering death.

HeerBerg, I think your comments are well made. Especially the one about buying a quality rifle in a medium caliber and quality glass...then go hunting. I am a proponent of chosing one quality rifle in lieu of many cheapo ones.

[ 09-30-2002, 06:35: Message edited by: Wismon ]

Double post deleted. (Although that might be one way to more quickly become "One of Us"

[ 09-30-2002, 06:34: Message edited by: Wismon ]

Hot damn....where in the hell is Allan when you need him?

Hey, RUGCHESTERINGTON, I love new cartridges.
My favorites are;
1. 30/30
2. 7.62 x 54r
3. .22 Hornet

I have watched my brother spend a lot of money on the American big 3 over the past 4 years, trying to get a decent shooting deer rifle.
He finally spent the money for a new Tikka, and is in gunpowder nirvana.

I helped him with 8 different rifles, non of which would fire into 1.5 moa, with commercial ammo, not to mention the bad triggers etc.

The Tikka went moa on the second ammo we tried, with beautiful fit and finish and a great trigger out of the box.

Like the others said, improve the quality first, then play with the loadings.

[ 10-01-2002, 07:02: Message edited by: TERRY8mm ]

Herrberg, well, yes, those, too. Nothing as boring as a 22LR, though.

Lots of guys with 270's and '06's. Those are the guys that go to the local mass merchandiser (Walmart), and buy a "box of shells" every three years to go to "hunting camp", where they drink and tell lies while hiding from the wife.

I'm exaggerating, of course, but it's not too far from the truth. The more common calibers are usually in the hands of the utility shooters. The "gun nuts" that handload and yearn for wildcats are the guys that hang out here. To contrast, a guy that works for me on my farm asks me to sight in his 270 for him, every couple of years...... Different strokes, for different folks. FWIW, Dutch.

Winchester/Remingtion/Browning/Savage would be far better off concentrating their efforts better gun accuracey than a new 22WSM. Joke of the day.

I could see making a full length .257 WSM, but the 6mm and .22 wouldn't really be feasible due to barrel and throat erosion. As for the short WSM, what's the purpose? We have a 25/06 for the .25 cal. IF you want that much velocity in a 6mm, have a 6mm/284 built. The one thing I would like to see is 30 cal short WSM cases made. This would be the hunter benchrester's answer to the 6mm PPC. But, I can't see Winchester doing that for such a small niche market. So if they want to bring these short rounds out, by all means please do so. The hunter benchrest community may thank Winchester one day. After all, how hard would it be to expand a .25 Short WSM to .30 cal.