Scuttlebut about new "winchester" factory rounds?

29 September 2002, 03:31

<Don Martin29>

Doug,

You have a point of course. Winchester is the one who made 1964 infamous. But they have offered a Super Grade also and brought back the CRF M-70.

The thread is on new cartridges and they sell more rifles. That's not all a company needs to do so we are both right.

The buying public is not so sophisticated either. Look at Savage dropping the 99 for lack of demand and all of these 45/70's selling in "Guide Guns" Ugh!

29 September 2002, 05:45

Dutch

Herberg, doesn't everyone have at least a 10/22 over there? 22LR's are an absolute basic family need here, seems like. Very useful for small game (squirrels and such), plinking, pest control, etc. At $12/500, you can afford to shoot it, even if it's not the most accurate ammo.

I almost always have either a 22LR or a 223 in the truck, just in case I run into a skunk or a coyote.

In the end though, the firearms buying public in the US is not rational. If it were, we would still buy '99's in 250, 308 and 358, instead of 94's in 30/30 and guide guns in 45/70, as mentioned.

The key is, I think, that in the U.S, we don't have to be rational. It's not like buying a house, where we have huge transaction costs. We can go out, buy an absolute abomination of a rifle (say a braked 300 Ultra for hunting deer from a tree stand). If we buy a Ruginchester, we can get out of that rifle in 10 minutes for 70% of our cost, and trade into a 30/06 pump. Or a Vaquero, a new DVD player, or just get our money back. There is no serious penalty for "playing with something new". Personally, I like it that way.

When the 17 cal (HMR) rimfire came out, it was obvious this only filled a very minor niche (pest control / varminting at medium ranges where noise is a factor). However, it is NEAT, and the manufacturer can't even come close to supplying enough ammo. It is fun, it is intriguing because it is surprisingly accurate, it is new, and it is cheap enough to allow recreational (volume) shooting.

I think that is why the 30/30 lives, and other rounds come and gone. The 30/30 is fun enough, the rifles and ammo are cheap enough and the cartridge is powerful enough to meet requirements.

The 223 is the small call 30/30. I can buy remanufactured ammo for $12/50 that shoots MOA in my Savage bolt. Guess what I use for pest control? No WSSM will meet that.

For the WSSM to hang on long term, it has to be more than "neat". It also has to make economic sense for the shooter. JMO, Dutch.

30 September 2002, 15:31

Wismon

I wish you hadn't mentioned the .17 WFM (or whatever it is) rimfire. I was at the range a few weeks ago and some jackass was shooting that new round. When the guy next to him asked what he was planning to shoot with it he replied, "deer". He said it was suitable for them because "...it would blow the head clean off." His justification for this was that we all ought "...to see what it does to a blob of clay."

I have visions of deer dying a slow lingering death.

HeerBerg, I think your comments are well made. Especially the one about buying a quality rifle in a medium caliber and quality glass...then go hunting. I am a proponent of chosing one quality rifle in lieu of many cheapo ones.

[ 09-30-2002, 06:35: Message edited by: Wismon ]

30 September 2002, 15:32

Wismon

Double post deleted. (Although that might be one way to more quickly become "One of Us" [Big Grin]

[ 09-30-2002, 06:34: Message edited by: Wismon ]

01 October 2002, 11:19

Jim Kobe

Hot damn....where in the hell is Allan when you need him?

01 October 2002, 16:01

TERRY8mm

Hey, RUGCHESTERINGTON, I love new cartridges.
My favorites are;
1. 30/30
2. 7.62 x 54r
3. .22 Hornet

I have watched my brother spend a lot of money on the American big 3 over the past 4 years, trying to get a decent shooting deer rifle.
He finally spent the money for a new Tikka, and is in gunpowder nirvana.

I helped him with 8 different rifles, non of which would fire into 1.5 moa, with commercial ammo, not to mention the bad triggers etc.

The Tikka went moa on the second ammo we tried, with beautiful fit and finish and a great trigger out of the box.

Like the others said, improve the quality first, then play with the loadings.

[ 10-01-2002, 07:02: Message edited by: TERRY8mm ]

02 October 2002, 07:05

HerrBerg

quote:
Originally posted by Dutch:
[QB]Herberg, doesn't everyone have at least a 10/22 over there? 22LR's are an absolute basic family need here, seems like. Very useful for small game (squirrels and such), plinking, pest control, etc. At $12/500, you can afford to shoot it, even if it's not the most accurate ammo.
QB]

Dutch, the rimfires are quite common but mostly for target practice. But out of the 6 people including me that hire the exclusive hunting rights of some 4000 acres an hours' drive from Stockholm [Cool]

, none of us owns a rimfire.

And still, we are fairly interested in shooting (two of us are clay shooters on the national level).

So, few guns in boring chamberings? Well, see it from the practical view: if a chambering suits the overall needs and the game won't know the difference, well... maybe we just kind of lose interest over here. Of course we've gut gun nuts here too, but I try to describe the overall mentality here.

So this is where cartridge reloading comes into my field of vision. By combining a decent rifle in a "medium plus" chambering for the game I intend to hunt, add some weapons-grade [Wink]

optics and choose the right load, I can get just about any kind of gun performance/behaviour I like.

And if I fail to bag a fox some 500 meters away, I feel that a "300 super magnum whatever" is not the answer to that. I need to improve my stalking skills, which is indeed much more rewarding than just calculating the bullet trajectory and wind drift, thus replacing hunting with shooting.

It's interesting to see the threads in this forum, one can hardly find a thread about .308W or .222, which I use for 70% of my hunting [Frown]

Are they still around in the US? [Wink]

Regards,
/HerrBerg

02 October 2002, 07:16

Dutch

Herrberg, well, yes, those, too. Nothing as boring as a 22LR, though.

Lots of guys with 270's and '06's. Those are the guys that go to the local mass merchandiser (Walmart), and buy a "box of shells" every three years to go to "hunting camp", where they drink and tell lies while hiding from the wife.

I'm exaggerating, of course, but it's not too far from the truth. The more common calibers are usually in the hands of the utility shooters. The "gun nuts" that handload and yearn for wildcats are the guys that hang out here. To contrast, a guy that works for me on my farm asks me to sight in his 270 for him, every couple of years...... Different strokes, for different folks. FWIW, Dutch.

05 October 2002, 14:30

<mbkddd>

Winchester/Remingtion/Browning/Savage would be far better off concentrating their efforts better gun accuracey than a new 22WSM. Joke of the day.

05 October 2002, 15:10

br6ppc

I could see making a full length .257 WSM, but the 6mm and .22 wouldn't really be feasible due to barrel and throat erosion. As for the short WSM, what's the purpose? We have a 25/06 for the .25 cal. IF you want that much velocity in a 6mm, have a 6mm/284 built. The one thing I would like to see is 30 cal short WSM cases made. This would be the hunter benchrester's answer to the 6mm PPC. But, I can't see Winchester doing that for such a small niche market. So if they want to bring these short rounds out, by all means please do so. The hunter benchrest community may thank Winchester one day. After all, how hard would it be to expand a .25 Short WSM to .30 cal. [Smile]