Since I was the one who started this whole mess, I felt it only right that I let everyone know that the rifle in question is safely back home. The original post was a request for assistance in contacting Bill. I truly appreciate those who offered assisted in this effort. Although I never was able to reach Bill, others evidently did and the message was relayed to him. THANK YOU.

It was certainly not my intent that the original post turn into what it did.

PLEASE, no reply to this post is needed, I just want everyone to know that Bill has returned the rifle.

Thank you.
John

Jeffe, if you want to let this run for a day or so then delete it, it will be fine with me. If you want to lock it so no one can post to it that would be fine as well.

One down a few dozen to go.

You have to wonder about someone who won't respond until his name gets dragged through the mud on the internet.

... and you wonder about someone who only responds with the opportunity to stomp in the mud.

Steve,if that was directed at me, I'll point out that I was making an observation and haven't been doing any mud stomping on the various Soverns threads. If you'd like, I'll tell you all about my personal dealings with Soverns (plenty of mud I promise).

Over the years, I've had dealings with 10 or 12 gunmakers of one kind or another. In about half of those encounters I've been blatently ripped-off. I've made some very close friends in the trade but, in general, it's not an area with very high levels of business competence or ethics. There are several notable exceptions to that blanket condemnation and you are a bright and shining exception.

Gasgunner

Do you have any information of what is to become (or became) of the project rifle in which you donated the action and I donated the barrel and many other folks here on AR donated other accessories.

Forrest, I was referring to you, haven't seen you post much, but frequently bad mouthing gunsmiths. I can't remember what you do but if it's banker, lawyer, investments(???) there are plenty of bad apples in those businesses, eh?

The one thing that just kills me about the guys that continue to get into bad deals in the gun business is they can't seem to learn when NOT to get into something and always blame the shyster.

As far as I'm concerned, it about life, and any bad deals I get into, more often than not I'm partially to blame, have some responsibility, or should have know better. When I do the same thing all over again, I'M SURE!
Don't you think??!!

As Les Brooks said right off the bat, anyone who didn't see the handwriting on the wall when Bill offered his cut-rate checkering was either greedy or naive.
Best,
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Forrest, I was referring to you, haven't seen you post much, but frequently bad mouthing gunsmiths. I can't remember what you do but if it's banker, lawyer, investments(???) there are plenty of bad apples in those businesses, eh?

The one thing that just kills me about the guys that continue to get into bad deals in the gun business is they can't seem to learn when NOT to get into something and always blame the shyster.

As far as I'm concerned, it about life, and any bad deals I get into, more often than not I'm partially to blame, have some responsibility, or should have know better. When I do the same thing all over again, I'M SURE!
Don't you think??!!

As Les Brooks said right off the bat, anyone who didn't see the handwriting on the wall when Bill offered his cut-rate checkering was either greedy or naive.
Best,
Steve

You know we all get into "bad deals" it is part of life and risk taking....but to compare a "bad deal" to taking money without delievring a product or service contracted for or not returing goods provided....well that is a CRIME!

I think that little "pearl of wisdow" by Les Brooks was after the fact...

I just do not see how one can justify, rationalize, or compare these types of actions to a "bad deal"...Nor do I see highlighting a problem such as this as an issue, if anything it should be brought out in the light of day so others do not fall in the same trap!

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Forrest, I was referring to you, haven't seen you post much, but frequently bad mouthing gunsmiths. I can't remember what you do but if it's banker, lawyer, investments(???) there are plenty of bad apples in those businesses, eh?

The one thing that just kills me about the guys that continue to get into bad deals in the gun business is they can't seem to learn when NOT to get into something and always blame the shyster.

Best,
Steve

Valid points Steve but has nothing to do with the gunsmiths actions.

You know, everybody here is aware of the original problem, although most have forgotten what it was.
More threads have been started regarding Mr Soverns. When is it enough???
Why cant all of this crap just be put to rest?

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Forrest, I was referring to you, haven't seen you post much, but frequently bad mouthing gunsmiths. I can't remember what you do but if it's banker, lawyer, investments(???) there are plenty of bad apples in those businesses, eh?

The one thing that just kills me about the guys that continue to get into bad deals in the gun business is they can't seem to learn when NOT to get into something and always blame the shyster.

As far as I'm concerned, it about life, and any bad deals I get into, more often than not I'm partially to blame, have some responsibility, or should have know better. When I do the same thing all over again, I'M SURE!
Don't you think??!!

As Les Brooks said right off the bat, anyone who didn't see the handwriting on the wall when Bill offered his cut-rate checkering was either greedy or naive.
Best,
Steve

I guess you don't like Consumer Reports, Book Reviews, or any Product Reviews (to name just a few) either.

I would think any professional or trade would want to illuminate the rotten apples, so the whole barrel doesn't spoil.

I have gotten into a bad deal with someone on this forum when yet other people knew there was a problem with the individual, but yet they kept quite.

I don't think any of us have a problem singing praise where praise is due. However, if you are on this forum soliciting future business and screwing people over....then you deserve to be found out and called on the carpet.

quote:

I don't think any of us have a problem singing praise where praise is due. However, if you are on this forum soliciting future business and screwing people over....then you deserve to be found out and called on the carpet.

Makes perfect sense to me...........not sure why it escapes others.

+1,
Thankfully, the forum is a doubled edged sword.

Sorry for this brief departure from the thread:

Trax, nice link to the interview with Erich Hartmann.

Back to thread.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
The one thing that just kills me about the guys that continue to get into bad deals in the gun business is they can't seem to learn when NOT to get into something and always blame the shyster.

Steve

I'm definitely guilty of making recurring mistakes. The most consistent one is to try and help talented younger gunmakers get a start. It's risky (like some venture capital deals I've been involved in); ocassionally things will work out well but more often things go straight to hell.

The interesting thing is that when things go south, I've never, ever, not even once, had the gunsmith call me and say something like, "As hard as I try, I just can't make a go of it and I'm not going to be able to deliver for you." Instead they lie, lie, lie and then disappear.

I sure wish they were all like you, Wiebe, Smithson, Klein, Fisher or Martini (among others). The difference isn't in talent alone; some folks fall short in more basic areas.

All professions and trades have a few bad apples. It just seems that the gun trade is more accepting of its bad apples.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Gasgunner

Do you have any information of what is to become (or became) of the project rifle in which you donated the action and I donated the barrel and many other folks here on AR donated other accessories.

My understanding is that it is in safe hands. The ACGG person that I spoke with is aware of the rifle and they hope to find out the names of all those who donated and make everyone right in some way. Not sure if that means that they will reimburse people or possibly use the rifle for some other worthy charity.

John

quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Gasgunner

Do you have any information of what is to become (or became) of the project rifle in which you donated the action and I donated the barrel and many other folks here on AR donated other accessories.

My understanding is that it is in safe hands. The ACGG person that I spoke with is aware of the rifle and they hope to find out the names of all those who donated and make everyone right in some way. Not sure if that means that they will reimburse people or possibly use the rifle for some other worthy charity.

John

That person's job would be much easier if they were to come here on AR and go to the original thread concerning that project. They would be able to get a very good idea of who donated what.

Again, I am not complaining. I just want to see the project finished and the money go to a good cause.

If you're referring to the"Searcy Memorial Scholarship" rifle...the lucky winner was MHC TX...posted on this forum when it happened

quote:

If you're referring to the"Searcy Memorial Scholarship" rifle...the lucky winner was MHC TX...posted on this forum when it happened

Different project.

Yikes! Gasgunner, could you help this guy?

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../3221043/m/706108626

Mr. Wiebe put me in contact with a gentleman from the ACGG Ethic committee, who I had a good conversation with a litle bit ago. he has had contact with Bill recently and will use my name when he contacts him again.

We'll see how this goes...