Gentlemen

I thought I'd ask you guys because your in another country and will tell it like it is, if I asked this question in Australia all the gunsmiths would hold their cards close to their chest like I'm about to steal business off them.

I was with my Uncle on the weekend, telling him how hard it is to get smithing work done in less then about 3 months and you have to travel miles to find one, he's about to retire and is a machinest / fitter and turner /tool maker.

Like me he's been a keen shooter all his life and always wanted to get into gunsmithing to keep himself busy at home, now he will have the time.

He thought he'd just get into the simple stuff initially, but take on extra more complicated work as he learns how.

Between us all there's enough friends and family in my home town to give him lots of experimental work, plenty of old mausers around to work on

He's a little worried about head spacing issues etc... and lathe quality. I told him if there is anything that stumps him a simple post on here would give him the answer ASAP and the more work he get the better he will become.

Primarily the work he'd like to start with is rebarrelling, reamer work, drilling, taping, thread work, maybe a little trigger work, bluing, any machine work that wont be too far from what he's been doing for years. He'd like to work up to full custom jobs eventually,

So keeping to an average budget, nothing too exotic, what tooling items would you recommend he starts with, the kind of stuff you guys would buy if you were start up gunsmithing from the beginning again, He does have a fair bit of tools at home but it may not all be needed in Gunsmithing

We've been looking at Brownells web site and there is a heap of stuff there but, how much of it, and what do we really need ?

best regards
S&F

I'm thinking :-
- Barrel Crowning tools
- Action Wrench - Which one ?
- Barrel Vise - Which one ?
- Recoil pad tools
- Trigger Job tools
- 4 chuck Lathe

Lathe, horizontal mill, lots of files and screwdrivers, a good solid workbench and vice, punches and small hammer, digital or dial caliper and micrometers, reference books, desire and some talent.

Get started with that and you'll figure out what you need from Brownell's and what you don't; they carry a lot more of the later.

You don't need any special crowning tools, just sharp lathe tools.

You can make your own action wrenches but the simple one from Wheeler Engineering works on most actions.

I made my own barrel vice using a very large nut, threaded rod and some scrap steel. It's mounted on a steel post in the yard and I make oak blocks to fit whatever barrel I'm untwisting.

Fitting recoil pads is a lot easier with a belt/disc sander but you don't need a real fancy one.

I use a digital trigger pull scale from Lyman and some small India and Arkansas stones.

A 4-jaw chuck for the lathe is a lot easier to dial in than a 3-jaw. I also use a collet chuck for holding really small parts.

Don't forget the desire and talent; maybe those should be at the top of the list?

Hey S&F, the first thing he needs is to be computer literate - there is heaps of info around on the various sites giving both tricks of the trade and equipment required. Barrel fitting,headspacing,crowning, truing actions is all covered in detail in someplace or other.
This site may interest him Home gunsmiths
I think he could sell a few reamers to some of us

S&F

If your Uncle is a machinist/tool&die maker he has the experience with machinery do gunsmithing/rebarreling. What he will have to do is learn to apply it to firearms.
As far a machinery a lathe and drill/mill would be the main tooling to get started. Start slow and buy as you need or can afford. If you are buying new machinery, buy the best you can afford.
I would recommend that he buy several books on the subject and study the procedures on what he wants to do.Good reference material is hard to beat for the price.

One of the best pieces of advice I can give is, when someone walks through the shop door he is a CUSTOMER. He is no longer a friend or relative. Never do any work for anyone without charging for it. If nothing but 50 cents.
If you start giving your work away, it's hard to reverse. Trust me on this one. Look at it this way, they are buying a piece of your life.

James

Only partially in jest, let me suggest an alternative:

Get him to beg, borrow, or steal a spade, or better yet, a backhoe. Then have him dig as deep a hole as he can , in a week of solid work.

Next, have him stand next to the hole in a pouring rain storm, with nothing on but his skivvies, and throw $20 bills into it as fast as he can, while his wife, his daughters, and every other woman he can round up, criticizes him in whichever ways they see fit, including negative slams about his personal equipage. Only important thing is, they aren't allowed to stop chewing on him, for whatever reason(s).

He will be having about as much fun, and probably losing less money, than most general, every-day, journeyman-level gunsmiths.

Gunsmithing is a great hobby, but a great business it often ain't....just like any other job dealing with the great unwashed public.

Reminds me a lot of what the old rancher answered when asked what he'd do if he won the Irish Sweepstakes..." Ah'd jess keep on ranchin' 'til t'was all gone...."...."


Anyway, if he does decide to give it a whirl, I'd suggest he start by doing the things most similar to what he has already been doing. Cutting threads and chambers are probably the closest to typical machinist's work. Drilling and tapping holes falls right in there, too. I'd caution him AWAY from working on triggers until he has done a LOT of them on his own rifles and used them a few years to see what can (and will) go wrong. Too much liability and subjectivity to that enterprise to make it a good "new gunsmith" endeavor.

Likewise, I'd suggest he avoid anything which requires putting heat to actions or barrels on other people's guns until he is well experienced doing it on his own firearms.

I have a good friend who was in the same position, and very wisely decided to limit his efforts to a couple of specialties. He calls his business "XXXXX's Chambers and Barrels". As he was an aerospace machinist, but never really understood the fine arts of gunsmithing, it was a perfect niche for him.

He now has way more business than he can handle, doing just very fine chambering and barreling, and he still doesn't know much more than he did originally about the other 'smith's arts. Nor does he need to. He is happy, makes a financial go of it, and is well respected for the work he does.

Sorry if I just can't help but put in my 2 cents worth...the ACGG is full of retired mailmen, retired Army sergeants. retired boat salesmen, retired carpenters, retired cops. retired underwriters...ad infinitum....You can;t blame a full time gunsmsith "holding his cards close to the chest" We full time professionals have been screwed by part timers..retired, etc that only want a tax write off for their hobby...cutting prices just to FINALLY get a CLIENT.. (Customer) I hold no anomosity to the serious retired who REALLY wants to create a second career, but these serious folks are really few and far between. The part timer and retired must charge fair and marketable prices...shop time around $75-100 per hour. If he can't generate these prices...GET OUT OF THE WAY!...back to the rocking chair! Operating Engineers. Electricians, make a solemn vow NOT TO COMPETE after retirement...We professional gunsmiths have not reached that plateau...God willing, I will see the day when professionl gunsmiths will have the same protection and respect...If I've pissed off some folks...I'm old enough to live with it!

Duane, As a guide in Alaska I have the same problem with retired folks taking up a second career and undercutting those of us who have been with the same career forever.
I could have done what they did, but made a decision to do what I loved instead of punching the clock as they did.
They paid their dues and earned their retirement and if they can offer the same quality as I do with only a year or two of experience then I am to blame - not them.
Your reputation is solid and so is mine and thank god it is still a free country and a man can charge what he wants.

Sounds like a nice way to keep busy in ones golden years. The key would seem not being dependant on the income. The flip side the enjoyable hobby could become a less enjoyable grind.

Gentlemen, I don't think he would be offended at all by your comments and all very valid points

No the problem as I see it in Australia IS the simple basic work is put on the back blocks to very special, unquestionable professional custom Jobs.

It bothers me that you really do have to wait a minimum of 4 to 8 weeks for a simple chamber job, headspace issues or a rebarrel, lapping work, drill and tap for open sites or a scope base simple thread for a screw on muzzle brake etc...................While the gunsmith is tied up doing a custom Job, engraved crossbolts, custom turned and checkered bolt handle, custom made open sites, custom made barrels bands, special bore match grade chambers and throats, trigger match grade and light, deep blued and highly polished actions some with engraving, high twenty lines per inch checkering, A grade pillar bedding, action truing, full bedding job etc.....

I think there is a market out there for simple "supermarket" type service and a market out there for a premium "professional" finish and service, the kind you really do want to wait for and tell and show your friends

regards
S&F

Does anyone remember when knife maker Bob Loveless started charging $150 for a knife when a Randall was only around $35? He got it because folks thought he was worth it. If folks want to pay David Miller $35,000 for a rifle (David and Curt are not rich and are working men as well) then it's going to be good in the long run for all gun builders. Amateurs and professionals as well.

All this reminds me of the joke John Barsness told me about the cocktail waitress.

A big sweep of the Vegas strip rounded up two dozen accused hookers and the following day they appeared in court before the judge and one by one he asked them how they pleaded to the charge of prostitution.
One at a time they each claimed they were simply cocktail waitresses and were getting off work late - and one by one the judge fined them each $200 and let them go.
Finally the last gal stood before the judge and he asked how she pleaded. She said guilty.
The judge said he admiring her honesty and fined her the minimum fee of $100 and asked how business was.
She said business was good - "but it would be a lot better without all those damned cocktail waitresses"

I'm afraid that is the lot of many talented gun builders.

Not everybody wants, needs or can afford "best quality". I'll keep buying Toyota's and General Motors and leave the BMW's to those that need, want and can afford them. I find it ironic that the same people who are critical of those who charge less than what they deem appropriate also are critical of those like Miller who charge and get more than they do! Raise your prices to his level or get back to the rocking chair

There isn't a profession, trade, or job that doesn't have some of these same issues, and I agree that one must charge as high as one can depending on what the market will bear.

I know I will get a lot of flak for saying this, but what really bothers me is the riflebuilder that charges $100 per hour for custom rifle work that does their own will and taxes and complains about $300 an hour for legal work.

Back to the question asked, I would suggest that your uncle purchase a couple of the good gunsmithing books such as that by Dunlap, or if you can find it, "Gunsmithing" by Howe. They have a lot of how-to information and a good list of tools.

Then, learn on your own stuff, and realize that quality work takes time. Finally, remind him that he is selling a service, not a commodity and that if he is in business, he needs to charge enough to cover actual costs such as utilities, insurance, etc. Also, he will need a reserve to pay for the customer's guns and/or parts that he eventually trashes (ALL gunsmiths have a major "oh-sh_t" on occassion). Tell him that if he is going to do work for others, it is a business, not a hobby.

Also, with regards to the $100.00 an hour gunsmith, you are paying for quality and experience, which in my experience generally translates into a job done right the first time for very little more money than the hack down the street who charges $25.00 an hour. Also, with regards to the time work takes, gunsmiths make money on building complete guns. If they are lucky, they break even on the little jobs due to the disproportionate amount of time that the little jobs take. Remember, for the full-timers, this is how they keep food on the table and a roof over their head.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

All this reminds me of the joke John Barsness told me about the cocktail waitress.

A big sweep of the Vegas strip rounded up two dozen accused hookers and the following day they appeared in court before the judge and one by one he asked them how they pleaded to the charge of prostitution.
One at a time they each claimed they were simply cocktail waitresses and were getting off work late - and one by one the judge fined them each $200 and let them go.
Finally the last gal stood before the judge and he asked how she pleaded. She said guilty.
The judge said he admiring her honesty and fined her the minimum fee of $100 and asked how business was.
She said business was good - "but it would be a lot better without all those damned cocktail waitresses"

I'm afraid that is the lot of many talented gun builders.

So, I guess the moral of the story is....don't employ a cocktail waitress to build your custom rifle or you might get screwed.

Sorry - I couldn't resist.

If gunsmiths (full-time, part-time or otherwise) want to get paid like professionals then they should start acting like professionals.

As a group, gunsmiths make less than plumbers, electricians and A/C techs because they deserve to. A couple of weeks ago, I needed a new blower in my HVAC unit. I called my AC guy, he came over at 6pm worked until 8pm, got me fixed up and charged me $350. He didn't require a big deposit, he didn't lie to me, he didn't make up a bunch of excuses as to why the job would take a year longer than expected; he did the work, got paid and got out.

I get tired of gunsmiths moaning about how little they get paid. Given their work ethic and business practices in general, they are lucky to make any money at all. They couldn't stay employed in any other field that I'm aware of. Maybe that's why they all end up being gunsmiths.

Duane and SDH, are all those retired former-whatevers doing Guild quality work? If you let them in the Guild, I supposed they must be. If the ACGG's primary goal is to enforce a pricing discipline it's destined to fail. Why don't you make the Guild an organization that promotes excellence in the craft and excellence in business practices by it's craftsmen?

Guild membership means nothing if you let hacks and shysters remain in good standing. Up the standards of the Guild to a point where it really means something and it will provide a platform for professional-level pricing. You guys can start by actually kicking out a few well-known shysters. I know about the "ethics committee"...blah, blah, blah. Put some teeth in it and make it public. Then maybe the customers won't just think of the Guild as a boys club for a bunch of old guys.

If the general public can't distinguish between Guild-quality work and general gunsmithing hacks, it's no one's fault but your own.

(I probably shouldn't have posted this until after the Guild show. I'll have to use a fake name on my badge now. See you guys there!)

Don't get me wrong, there is no mistaking a good gunsmith and excellent work.

But look the only reason this came up is I have 2 relatively bread and butter gunsmith jobs I want done.

Firstly I want 2 inches taken off my 416 Taylor and then recrowned - quickest time I can have this done is mid to late February

Secondly I have a brand new gun, a brand new contoured barrel, I want the old barrel screwed out, the new one chambered, threaded and screwed in, we can get the head space gauges and reamer no problem, the parent case is the same, it should require no other aaction work - quickest I can have this done by any gunsmith is March

Primarily because the Gunsmiths I have contacted are booked solid on custom work and can't fit me in.

It's just not good enough, especially on docking the 416 Taylor 2 inches, hell I feel like running out to the shed and doing it with a hack saw right now....

Thats when I said to my Uncle, "damn I wish you could do some gunsmith work, I'm sick of waiting.".....so there is the history behind the question

regards
S&f

Joe,
I wrote this to lawndart some time ago, and it holds true. The prices might be dated, but directionally the same

Oh, remember, EVERYONE started at zero

quote:

JC,

this is the single most important piece you would never think of
Spindlesquare - trams your mill in seconds, and allows you to tram TO the surface of the work... for interesting things like barrel dovetails
$150
http://www.wttool.com/p/1289-0600

this is the mill you want, $2600 delivered and can be LATER upgraded to cnc
30x12x5 TRAVEL with a 40x9 table -- you do NOT want a round column import, and this thing is like the PERFECT gunsmith mill.

http://www.industrialhobbies.com/Products/square_column_mill.htm

~4000, i would look for a 15" lathe, as they generally have the through hole and WEIGHT to be accurate. I would look for a leblond/nardini. 15x60 would be fine, and a SHORT bed (36 or 48) wouldn't hurt, and generally goes for less money. monarches are amazing lathes, but the through hole tends to be smaller

add 500 for shipping

welder .. me, I would get a CHEAP tig welder,
like this -- i have a big thermal arc, and nearly NEVER go above 60amps for gun related stuff.. and 3/8 is usually only 120 amps.

(thermalarcs START at 1800)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7624...9&fromMakeTrack=true

i would then buy a hobart TRUE mig welder


http://cgi.ebay.com/HOBART-HANDLER-180-MIG-500506-CART-...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
785 - includes bottl and regulator that can work on both welders...

bout 1100 bucks for a tig and mig, which of course can do stick as well, so you have all major processes covered

you'll also need a torch, even if just pony bottles..
500 total

surface grinder -- this would be the LAST thing I bought, and harbour fright ahs them for 699!!

i would, however add
"import 6" cnc vise" for the mill. $129 from wholesale tool. will drop with into the mill table

TWO 1/2" boltdown kits 40 each

123 blocks - 40 bucks

starrette 12" precision level, $200 ebay

hand full of machinist jacks, 4 bucks each

tslot scraper 5 bucks

harbour freight coolant pump, get 2, 50 bucks each

and of course collects, boring bars, chucks... so probably right at 11K to fill your shop

put aside 1000 for misc tooling

what I would get before a surface grinder is a BIG baldor pedestal grinder, 10 or 12", and a big buffing only buffer/arbour... and the set of wheels and grits.

oh, yeah, while the surface grinder would be cool, a $229 6x48 belt, 12" disk grinder from HF, with a replacement motor, kicks butt for installing pads and varius off hand grinding work.

on chucks, get jacobs, a 0 to 3/8 KEYED, and 1/2 keyless.. and a JUNKER 3/4" keyed, as a through away, as you'll want that from time to time.

oh, and one of the best "have it around" are a set of edge finders and a coax

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Guild membership means nothing if you let hacks and shysters remain in good standing. Up the standards of the Guild to a point where it really means something and it will provide a platform for professional-level pricing. You guys can start by actually kicking out a few well-known shysters. I know about the "ethics committee"...blah, blah, blah. Put some teeth in it and make it public. Then maybe the customers won't just think of the Guild as a boys club for a bunch of old guys.

Thanks, I agree. But then again, I'm an electrician and If I put people off the way some gunsmiths do, I wouldn't be able to get any work. And I said some not all. When delay go into the years not months I think there is a problem with work ethic, if you can't do it don't take the job.
-Don

The term gunsmith seems to be the problem here.
as the term gets applieds to gun artisans, gun builders, gunsmiths and local gun plumbers.

Asking SDH and the other talented guild folks to crown a barrel or fit a scope is like asking an artist to paint your house.
Asking David Miller or D'Arcy Echols to grind a recoil pad is like having a Ferrari dealer tune your old chevy.

It is unreasonable to expect them to interrupt a multi-thousand dollar job to do what most any local talent can do.

There are very few who can and will do it all, and if you know one be kind to them.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The term gunsmith seems to be the problem here.
as the term gets applieds to gun artisans, gun builders, gunsmiths and local gun plumbers.

Asking SDH and the other talented guild folks to crown a barrel or fit a scope is like asking an artist to paint your house.
Asking David Miller or D'Arcy Echols to grind a recoil pad is like having a Ferrari dealer tune your old chevy.

It is unreasonable to expect them to interrupt a multi-thousand dollar job to do what most any local talent can do.

There are very few who can and will do it all, and if you know one be kind to them.

458Win, you are spot on....that is it in a nutshell and your right I'm pretty sure my uncle would not consider himself a true GUNSMITH more a machinist that can do basic firearm rebuilds and repairs

And yes your right I'd hate to stop a good gunsmith on a $10000 custom build, to ask him to cut 2 inches off my 416 Taylor and recrown it, but I hope you guys can see my point, I can't see why I need to wait more than a week at best for this. Instead I'm told approx 6 weeks.

There is a market around here for a good machinist that can do basic firearm work

Thanx Jeffe, thats what I was looking for, Ultimately, it would be nice to be able buy brand new rifles, rebarrel to AR series rifles in 458, 500 etc....reinforce the original stock and resell them with dies...if that can be done.

regards
S&F

quote:

Originally posted by ShortandFat:
[And yes your right I'd hate to stop a good gunsmith on a $10000 custom build, to ask him to cut 2 inches off my 416 Taylor and recrown it, but I hope you guys can see my point, I can't see why I need to wait more than a week at best for this. Instead I'm told approx 6 weeks.

......regards
S&F

Everyone has an hour job. But if you let each of those in before other already scheduled jobs, well, you can see how they'd never get done. And, if you are one of the fortunate smiths that have lots of work, well, it piles up. Then when you say it'll take 6 weeks to do your hour job, people get pissed.

I used to have 40 or 50 guns in the queue at any given time. Problem was, I was too busy to turn out all the work myself but couldn't afford to hire someone and often it is hard as hell to find a qualified helper.

quote:

Everyone has an hour job. But if you let each of those in before other already scheduled jobs, well, you can see how they'd never get done. And, if you are one of the fortunate smiths that have lots of work, well, it piles up. Then when you say it'll take 6 weeks to do your hour job, people get pissed.

I do find it hard people can't understand that. I drop my stuff off and tell him to call me when it's done. I know that often gets some of my stuff shuffled to the back of the line a few times but it's also paid dividends. I've gotten some great work done at better prices and a lot of direction and advice on my own hobby projects.

quote:

I used to have 40 or 50 guns in the queue at any given time. Problem was, I was too busy to turn out all the work myself but couldn't afford to hire someone and often it is hard as hell to find a qualified helper.

Well, wouldn't the proper thing then be to refer the customer to someone else so the matter can be taken care of right away.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

I used to have 40 or 50 guns in the queue at any given time. Problem was, I was too busy to turn out all the work myself but couldn't afford to hire someone and often it is hard as hell to find a qualified helper.

Well, wouldn't the proper thing then be to refer the customer to someone else so the matter can be taken care of right away.

No, the turnaround time was explained and these customers wanted to wait. I guess they felt the quality of the work was worth it. The point which you obviusly missed is that GOOD smiths often have long waits for a reason. And that trying to squeeze rush jobs in often creates more problems than it solves.

My view is, if you don't want to wait go elsewhere.

At the same time, I can see that there some out there who will commit to delivery in 6 months and still not fulfill that promise in 16. That's not right but, it's just like everything else, let the buyer beware. Research before going with some one. It's a shame that there are a few who just won't live up to their promise. And, if you really need it in 6 months don't go with someone who has a history of backlogs or inablity to deliver. I would always allow a little extra cushion because shit happens. Sometimes a customer will supply an action and parts and when that project finally comes to the top, you discover that there are issues. These things take time to sort out and it really isn't practical to do a dry run upon receipt of the parts.

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:

quote:

Everyone has an hour job. But if you let each of those in before other already scheduled jobs, well, you can see how they'd never get done. And, if you are one of the fortunate smiths that have lots of work, well, it piles up. Then when you say it'll take 6 weeks to do your hour job, people get pissed.

I do find it hard people can't understand that. I drop my stuff off and tell him to call me when it's done. I know that often gets some of my stuff shuffled to the back of the line a few times but it's also paid dividends. I've gotten some great work done at better prices and a lot of direction and advice on my own hobby projects.

I agree. I used to have customers tell me, no rush, do some money jobs if you get them. Like you say, that understanding is repaid in dividends.

No, I didn't miss the point. I think that even a good smith ought to turn stuff down rather than have it sitting around the shop for long periods of time, unless of course the smith gets some sort of a writing signed by the customer that they are willing to wait for an uncertain amount of time to get the work done.

I myself have left work with a smith and two years later called and it was never gotten to. So . . . . there must be some cutoff point.

That's just stupid. If you are told up front how long the wait will be and choose to proceed then all is good. If the wait is too long, you are free to go elsewhere.

If you want something built by a spceific person or company and are told the wait is two years, you alone must decide if the wait is worth it. If not, you get another maker or product. Pretty simple.

Be that as it may, if you are told 6 months, then 6 months it should be with certain small allowances made for "things that happen".

I've been a "part-timer" 'smith for well over 50 years, doing my own and friends, aquaintances etc. guns, the whole time, getting more complicated as my knowledge permitted.

I always wanted to be a gunsmith far back as I can remember. Throughout this lengthy time I looked at gunsmith trade schools, talked to local or any gunsmith that had time to answer a question...or would take the time...most have been hounded by would-be wannabees looking for "freestuff". One smith finally woke me up by saying "I charge $30 an hour"...this was back a few years...and pointed to a sign on his wall that had his prices listed for the different jobs. He would be happy to answer any question I had for as long as I wanted to pay the going rate. I finally understood the problem.

I asked one smith who did the barrel work for one of my rifles if he hired graduates from gunsmithing trade schools. Yes, he said, and they spend at least two years polishing barrels to be blued and got sacked if the wallowed out the sight screw holes...that even before they were allowed to even disassemble the guns they were polishing...at minimum wages. 5 years minimum before getting to touch a lathe, mill or do any other kind of gunsmithing.

This is a free market economy. When you go into business you should understand the full implications of that economy. If you don't, you should go back to being a shoe salesman or whatever you were prior to wanting to be involved in a highly competitive endeavor. No one said you would get a free ride by being a gunsmith or would ever get rich. It doesn't really matter what you do for a living, there will all ways be someone who will undercut your prices and the world is full of "shade tree mechanics, gunsmiths, undertakers,______________", etc ...you fill in the blank.

I've had very bad luck with "professional gunsmiths" over the years, even with "factory repair" stations for many well known weapons, so I don't go to very many. Even going to the famous schools doesn't mean doodly squat. I went to one ;smith who had graduated from a well know northern California gunsmithing school who showed me the rifle he built, the targets he shot with it and the box of ammo with the hits and distances recorded faithfully. I was very impressed...enough for him do a barrel job for me. I went back about a month later to check on the progress and found him trying to get a piece of *** in his back room and my rifle standing in the rack untouched. OK...nothing wrong with a little diversion now and then and I wasn't all that in a hurry. Another month passed and I stopped by again. I could see my rifle still standing getting covered with dust and him sitting at a bench full of pieces and parts drinking a soda. I asked when he would be getting at my rifle. Soon, soon he said. I got lucky...another month and I walked in and picked up my rifle, but not without a bit of trouble...he had lost the tag after starting to take the rifle apart and then putting it back in the shelf in the same place. Not two weeks later I went by and he was gone. I found out later he had gone to work on the local AF base as a lathe operator.

My useless advice is to look at the local smiths to see what their generalities or specialties are, then do something different if you want to 'smith. Pick a specialty and go for it, or pick something related to gunsmithing such as making pieces and parts, reloading components, aftermarket stuff, get online with a websight, contact places like Brownells, Sinclair, Midway as a supplier. Remember all the pieces and parts they provide have to be made somewhere and to be competitive you need CNC metal working equipment. Unless you are situated so far out in the boonies that UPS can't reach you, the WEB is the now place to do commerce.

Or just blow off all the whines from the "professionals" and do what you can do part time. I guarantee the woods are full of people tired of waiting months to get their guns fixed and another part time 'smith isn't going to hurt the full timers a tiny bit even though they scream loud and long.

Any smith that has a weeks worth of backlog can't get any more work done anyway. My favorite gunsmith takes 2-4 days in his busy time to do most "normal" work, i.e., sights and bases, chokes, recoil pads, minor repair and he is honest enough to send you to someone who can do specialized work if he can't or doesn't want to do the work.

This includes the time he takes off to hunt and fish each year. He is the only smith I've been to that doesn't just take the job with a smile or shine you on...and he is the only one I've purchased new or used guns from in the past 10 years...at least 2 a year...for my own projects.

It takes a long time to get a business started well, and a short time to lose it.

As with any endeavor involving "the people", don't lie, don't bullsh**, be honest and they will beat a path to your door. Go back and read Alberta Canuck again...he is spot on.

I've long since quit even thinking about becoming a gunsmith being retired also. I do the odd job now and then for friends...nothing spectacular...a trigger job or help with a recoil pad, maybe a stock swap or installing sight bases...but only as a helper and observer. There are just too many people ready to sue and too many lawyers trying to make a living, to get involved with anything even remotely dangerous. I don't even reload for them anymore. I point to a manual and they do all the work, and I stopped publishing any of my reloads that aren't listed in a manual somewhere.

The law of the land needs to be understood also if your Uncle wants to get involved in any gunsmithing. It would be too bad if he did something and ended up with a huge lawsuit or in jail...and depending on the mindset of the people involved, something even more sinister could happen.

Many want to be a gunsmith for some reason unknown to me and I've forgotten why I wanted to be one by now. I would say forget about it and just be your on "gunsmith". Don't waste your retirement dealing with unappreciative humans. Build a rifle now and then the way YOU want it, then sell it for a nice profit. If it is really good enough the word will get around and you can be a "professional part timer" and still enjoy the sport.

'Njoy

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Whew! glad I took the day off yesterday and you fellows delt with all the issues and solved all the problems!
Two comments; I have thougtht the world of David Miller and his prices for a very long time. I think it is wonderful what he charges, gives all the rest of us something to look up too. My comment was more in the realm of complementing Duane.

Second: The ACGG is what it is because it reflects what the majority of the members want. For The most part, that amounts to putting on a national show once a year. Some would llike to relax the admission standards, some would like to tighten them, the members will decide.
I'm just doing my own thing here, as I have for three decades, I really have no business even suggesting what Duane ought to do.
Hope to see you all in Reno!

I think acgg membership ought to be required. To get in one should only need to demonstrate competency. Then, as in martial arts, there should be rankings so that as an indicviduals skill increases My rational for this is that in essence all one needs to become a smith is $200 and a pen to fill out the ffl application. No demonstration of skill is needed. Too mnay hacks out there. And while I'm thankful to many of them for having provided me with lots of work, I'd rather see less butchered firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
That's just stupid. If you are told up front how long the wait will be and choose to proceed then all is good. If the wait is too long, you are free to go elsewhere.

If you want something built by a spceific person or company and are told the wait is two years, you alone must decide if the wait is worth it. If not, you get another maker or product. Pretty simple.

Be that as it may, if you are told 6 months, then 6 months it should be with certain small allowances made for "things that happen".

No, that isn't "stupid". Because, as many people have said here, many people are told what the wait will be, and they choose to proceed, and then they wait the specified length of time, and then the Gunny tells them, gee, its going to take more time, and they wait somemore, and the gunny says, well, I gotta order this part or that, and you wait somemore. I am not saying all do that. Most don't. But many do.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
That's just stupid. If you are told up front how long the wait will be and choose to proceed then all is good. If the wait is too long, you are free to go elsewhere.

If you want something built by a spceific person or company and are told the wait is two years, you alone must decide if the wait is worth it. If not, you get another maker or product. Pretty simple.

Be that as it may, if you are told 6 months, then 6 months it should be with certain small allowances made for "things that happen".

No, that isn't "stupid". Because, as many people have said here, many people are told what the wait will be, and they choose to proceed, and then they wait the specified length of time, and then the Gunny tells them, gee, its going to take more time, and they wait somemore, and the gunny says, well, I gotta order this part or that, and you wait somemore. I am not saying all do that. Most don't. But many do.

So, let's see, responisble smiths who have a long line of people waiting for them to do work should turn away customers who are willing to wait? Yeah, that's brilliant.

The issue is not how long people are willing to wait, it is a few service providers who do not deliver. Perhaps what you really should say is some folks should not lie.

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
That's just stupid. If you are told up front how long the wait will be and choose to proceed then all is good. If the wait is too long, you are free to go elsewhere.

If you want something built by a spceific person or company and are told the wait is two years, you alone must decide if the wait is worth it. If not, you get another maker or product. Pretty simple.

Be that as it may, if you are told 6 months, then 6 months it should be with certain small allowances made for "things that happen".

I agree, but when a 3-4 month quoted multi thousand dollar order gets partially shipped in 18 months and the rest only gets shipped because you contact your credit card company to report a fraud claim and then you see the parts in 72 hours, I think you can understand why I don't hold the fact that you are a ACGG member with any merrit. I might mean you are a great craftsman but not a businessman.

Gentlemen

All excusses aside, in the year 2008 why does it take 2 years for anything to be made....seriously

My point is there doesn't seem to be enough gunsmiths full stop. I really don't care how much I pay within reason, but I always want stuff done yesterday.

I really don't believe the money being charged is an issue the issue really is, why does a job that can be finished in say 2 hours, 2 solid days or 2 solid weeks , take weeks, months, or even years to complete

It's not right, if I want my car (automotive) serviced or repaired or a new motor dropped in I'll leave it at the garage for a day to a week maybe 2, but if I want a full custom V8 chevy with all the bells and lights I'll take it to a custom Rod shop and expect to wait much longer

There just seems to be a market out there for quick turnover basic gunsmithing jobs

regards
S&F

I think the answer is simple...a person usually gets the service the provider feels like giving him.

If the person is an obnoxious butt-head, he can almost assuredly count on his job taking longer. IF he has built a good relationship with his service provider(s) over time, they'll usually try to help him out as quickly as they REASONABLY can.

Of course, there are always exceptions both ways. But as a general rule I think it usually works that way.

When everyone wants their stuff yesterday, then something has to give. Perhaps more 'smiths should just say, "Sorry, but I am overbooked right now. If you want to bring it back in a couple of months, maybe things will be better. But, maybe not too." But, gunsmiths being people, they don't like to say the "not nice" thing. They tend to tell the customer what he demands to hear.

Another thing is, the parts which break on a particular gun are not usually the easily available ones. Certain designs have certain things that tend to go wrong with them...so it is pretty much the same parts which break on all the guns of that design. If the guns are out of production, so are the original factory parts. That means a lot of people want the same parts. So, they aren't easy to find, and won't be cheap if a gunsmith CAN find one for the customer.

As to gunsmiths being worse than other tradesmen, that is NOT my experience. Because this area is still a housing boom area, a person will play hell getting an electrician, a plumber, a yard-service guy, or anything else around here just because they want one. If they can work with the provider's schedule, they can get pretty much what they want. If they insist he does it at their convenience rather than his, they will probably end up doing it theirself.

I just want my project done in the "mutual" time frame that was agreed upon by "both" parties. Don't take my deposit if you know you can't deliver the work as promised, just be honest with me. Don't promise me just one more month, just one more month.....it's amazing how month's soon turn into years....and that's a good way to gurantee yourself that you will not get my future business. It's happened to me twice now.