As the old saying goes, There are three sides to every law suit: The Plaintiff’s...the Defendant‘s...and the Truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Augustis:
...I have found to be some what arrogant and distasteful..

Hey Augustis, No where have I attacked you, but yet you choose to go into the Personal Attack mode. That is why I like everything out in the open. Years ago I realized attempting to discuss this with you is a total waste of my time. Obviously nothing has changed.

And the Remington Trigger Mechanism is still the finest, fastest and SAFEST factory trigger mechanism on the market. Really just that simple.

quote:

And the Remington Trigger Mechanism is still the finest, fastest and SAFEST factory trigger mechanism on the market. Really just that simple.

It is just the opposite and you continue to show yourself to be an imbecile scum bag shill for Remington. You are no better than the corporate criminals who decided to risk customers lives rather than fix the problem. Of course that problem does not exist, just like the Walker memo does not exist.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
I own and use several 1903’s and I can “trick†each and every one of them into firing when the safety lever is moved to the Ready position...if I have been stupid enough to leave the lever in the vertical position insead of the Safe position.

Explain this to me. Particularly:"....if I have been stupid enough to leave the lever in the vertical position insead of the Safe position."

From the Safe position....you can't got to Ready without passing through the vertical position (safety but bolt free).

The problem is not a Safe vs. Vertical safety position. The problem is a safety lever that doesn't cam the striker off the trigger sear. If the trigger is pulled while in Safe or vertical position, the striker can ride over the trigger sear....but be held by the safety lever. When the lever is flipped to Ready.....the striker falls because the trigger sear isn't in place to hold it.

And it's not a design fault, nor something you have to live with.....fix it!

GV

GV,

This is a quote from the book: The M1903 Springfield Rifle and its Variations...by Joe Poyer.

page 213: “To safe the rifle the safety lever should always be turned fully to the right. If left in the vertical position the firing pin may not be completely locked and may move forward when the safety lever is turned to the left, or READY position, causing an accidental discharge.â€

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
page 213: “To safe the rifle the safety lever should always be turned fully to the right. If left in the vertical position the firing pin may not be completely locked and may move forward when the safety lever is turned to the left, or READY position, causing an accidental discharge.â€

When the safety is fully to the right.....and then moved to the Ready position.....it passes through the "vertical position"......just as if it were in the vertical position to start with.

If the sear/striker/safety are properly in sync, the vertical position is as safe as the right "safe" position. It blocks the striker the same way, but allows the bolt to be opened.

If the sear/striker/safety are not in sync.....the act of moving the safety to the right (safe) position does not insure there won't be an AD when you flip the safety from right to left. If you pull the trigger when safety is in the right most (safe) position, and the striker rides over the trigger sear, you will have an AD when that safety is flipped to Ready.

The safety must cam the striker back enough to clear the trigger sear, else pulling the trigger in either vertical or safety position will allow the striker to ride over the trigger sear. And the striker will fall as soon as the safety is flipped to ready. Regardless whether starting from Safe or vertical positions.

GV

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustis:
...I have found to be some what arrogant and distasteful..

Hey Augustis, No where have I attacked you, but yet you choose to go into the Personal Attack mode. That is why I like everything out in the open. Years ago I realized attempting to discuss this with you is a total waste of my time. Obviously nothing has changed.

And the Remington Trigger Mechanism is still the finest, fastest and SAFEST factory trigger mechanism on the market. Really just that simple.

HC
I think it important to look at what I said in the entire context of my statement, not just what you censored out then called a personal "Attack"...

"Simply because you are an engineer "with learned intelligence" and perhaps with some understanding of the concept does not mean your statements are not slanted to serve your opinions rendered in this forum which I have found to be some what arrogant and distasteful to me at times which totally lack foundation or facts, which has brought us to this impasse."

I did not say *you are* arrogant and distasteful, I said:

" your opinions rendered in this forum which I have found to be some what arrogant and distasteful to me at times which totally lack foundation or facts, which has brought us to this impasse"

Come On, these are my feelings and not personal attacks, read it a few more times. See the distinction now? ;O)

This is AR, certainly one of the most, if not the MOST painfully honest forum sites on the Internet that has the brass to let people discuss differences of opinions with almost no holds barred, and MY comment hurt your feelings????

Give me a break, I know you have thicker skin than that! I have seen you give as good as what you have received over the years in forum debate.

But none the less I am sorry you feel this way and have taken personal offense to my comment, you will be sorely missed by me, however, I will now offer a basic explanation of my comment and my feelings with regard to both in the hope you hang in there and continue to make me look good ;O)


Hot Core

Quotes:

1) "And the Remington Trigger Mechanism is still the finest, fastest and SAFEST factory trigger mechanism on the market. Really just that simple."


2) "Hey Augustis, I figured this thread would pull you out. No desire to argue with you at all. Even glad to say, it is nice you have an opinion, even though it is just TOTALLY WRONG!!!"

3) "Anyway, I would encourage you to dive right in and post what ever you believe and whatever sources you want to reference. Just don't be surprised if in the end I still realize there is no Inherent Design Problem in the Remington triggers."

4) "Hey Rick, I'm going to go out on a short rebar enforced limb and "guess" anything in that reguard has simply been "fabricated" by someone and it has been passed along until some people actually believe it."

The first two are some what arrogant statements IMHO, again with absolutely nothing substantial to back up YOUR opinions, the third arrogant and distasteful to me and forth simply distasteful.

Why, because you utilized the term my "references" in the third quote and in the forth quote you attempt to plant the seed in peoples minds to imply my sources are "fabricated", Nice try!

Then you call my feelings (not personal attacks) a foul as an excuse to bow out like last year after being overwhelmed with factual documented truths about this issue when you beat that poor gentleman up verbally for simply inquiring if anyone else had experienced the same malfunction we are discussing yet again this year, today.

Now that Hot Core and I have discussed our inner "Feelings" in public forums, back to the topic at hand....

Augustis ><>

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core

And the Remington Trigger Mechanism is still the finest, fastest and SAFEST factory trigger mechanism on the market. Really just that simple.

ABSURD.

We have been down this road several times now. Go back and read some of the previous threads on this subject. There are those who despise Remington and then there are the true believers. I doubt most will ever change their minds. Personally, having read the memos and having first hand exprience with an AD, I chose to change the trigger and safety. I figure why take a chance. I guess I should be more clear. It really wasnt an actuall AD as such but I was able to get the gun to fire on releasing the safety. There was no emotion in my decision. I just figured after all I had read and now seen it was the prudent thing to do.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
(Edit in: Nothing intelligent enough to actually quote.)

Life is WAY tooooo short to be PT Barnumed into totally wasting money on a constantly warping Termite Food stock.

You can't "pretty" them to death.
---

Quoting CBS as a credible unbiased firearms source is absolutely ABSURD.

quote:

Originally posted by Augustis:
...The first two are some what arrogant statements IMHO, again with absolutely nothing substantial to back up YOUR opinions, the third arrogant and distasteful to me and forth simply distasteful.

Personal attacks are without a doubt your strongest suit. And a close second is "re-interpreting"(twisting and skewing from reality) posts from what was actually said into something to fit your agenda.

quote:

Then you call my feelings (not personal attacks) a foul as an excuse to bow out like last year after being overwhelmed with factual documented truths about this issue ....

I still have no problem "discussing" the excellent totally SAFE Remington Trigger with anyone. But since you seem to be incapable of actually "discussing" the trigger, that pretty much shuts down communication.

Still no ill feeling toward you. I've just recognized the way you are and have no desire to "argue" with you.

Best of luck to you (><>.

quote:

I still have no problem "discussing" the excellent totally SAFE Remington Trigger with anyone. But since you seem to be incapable of actually "discussing" the trigger, that pretty much shuts down communication.

With anyone except me Hot Core...

You have NEVER discussed anything relevant to this issue except to say things like "Totally Safe" which could not begin to sum up the sheer magnitude of tests you may have allegedly conducted to arrive at this well founded conclusion, of course employing sound engineering principal and practices ;o)

Remember back when you popped into this scene at HA and I greeted you by saying "Welcome Remington" Well, now I guess I am saying Goodbye!

While I do have some major loyalties to certain past and present Remington personal it has dawned on me recently that I also I have an obligation to the public as an educator and to protect human life if possible by disseminating the leased amount of factual documented truth possible and allow the public to take the newly found knowledge to the bank or squander it, for what it is worth to them. At leased the choice is theirs to make!

As the past Remington Lawyers that shall go nameless and involved in the evolution of this issue through the years used to say "Let The Document Speak For Itself" and now that I have arrived in a place where I can make the documents sing through my extensive knowledge, I will say to you Hot Core you are not remotely prepared nor qualified to engage me in debate of this issue in the court of public opinion and have not been for some time....

...Or Remington has put you on a "Short Leash" like I suggested to them last year ;o)

I speculate the actual reason for you fearing coming out of the closet is then you might become discoverable and your comments made in public forums might be construed as rendered expert opinions....

So if there are no more questions to be answered and no more debate, I will see you all Next Time....

As an added bonus I will post something by my old friend JB that has direct bearing on this subject, and to some might add insult to injury, to that I say Tough Shit!!!! ;o)

Sincerely Yours, Augustis ><>

Trouble in Action
by Keith McCafferty
How to avoid triggering a tragedy.

Any time that a firearm discharges, under any circumstances, the consequences rest with the person who carries it. As esteemed Field & Stream managing editor David E. Petzal states, "You can't shift responsibility onto a piece of machinery."

Assume that a loaded gun can fire at any time, regardless of the care with which you handle it. If you obey the No. 1 rule of handling firearms—always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction—any accidental discharge will result in nothing more than a hole in the ground or sky. Keep in mind that if you use guns long enough, you will someday have one go off accidentally. To lessen the chances of this, you need to understand how the action of your gun raises safety concerns specific to its design.

Letting Down the Hammer
When I asked a number of gun experts, seasoned hunters, and guides what they considered to be the most dangerous action, to a man (and one woman) they responded that it was the action with which you are unfamiliar. Pressed further, the majority pointed to exposed-hammer guns as needing particular care when handling. Any gun that cocks the hammer in the act of chambering demands that a cold, sweaty, or gloved thumb work in harmony with a cold, sweaty, or gloved index finger to simultaneously depress the trigger and lower the hammer back down to the half-cock or safe position. Also, exposed hammers can catch on brush or clothing and the rebounding hammer can fire the gun.

Latter-day Marlin 336s and Winchester 94s, as well as other lever guns, address the exposed-hammer conundrum with crossbar safeties that block an accidental discharge before the action of the lever cocks the hammer. Most experts I interviewed welcomed this, especially for young hunters who don't have to break old habits to get used to it. (Ironically, the Winchester 9422 that many fathers buy for their sons does not have the crossbar safety.)

When Broken Is Good
Break-action shotguns and rifles offer many safety advantages. With the action cracked, it's simple to determine if the gun is loaded or a barrel obstructed, and they're easy to unload before crossing a fence or ditch (which encourages hunters to take this safety precaution).

The natural balance point and comparatively light weight of a double also translates into less fatigue and carelessness toward the end of the day. Dennis Cavanaugh, an upland bird guide, points out that his clients who use pumps and autos tend to put their shotguns on a shoulder with the barrel pointing backward when they get tired. He likes to see doubles because they can be carried with the action cracked open. And because doubles load quietly, hunters are more likely to hike with the chambers empty when hunting turkeys or other game that doesn't require quick shooting and might spook at the noise of a pump or autoloader chambering a shell.

Concerns include a shooter's tendency to play with the tang safety because it is right under the thumb; plus it's easy to accidentally push off if you take a tumble. Safeties that do double duty as the barrel selector—the Ruger Red Label comes to mind—won't slide forward to the fire position unless they are first pressed all the way to the right or left. This complication, slight as it is, can lead to a hunter nervously flicking the safety and unintentionally carrying it in the forward position. Also, the nonautomatic safeties that are popular on sporting clays guns can be forgotten between flushes. For occasional hunters who are not used to paying attention to safeties, those that return to position when the gun is opened are best.

Finally, break actions must be swung down into duck blinds for reloading, whereas pumps and autos can be loaded with the barrel pointing safely at the sky. And mud in the blind can become mud in your barrel, causing the gun to blow up when you pull the trigger. As contributing editor and hunter-education instructor Lawrence Pyne says, "I get tired of telling people that their barrels look like they need swabbing out."

Manning the Trombone
Because pumps require manipulation between shots, there is no chance of an accidental discharge if you slip after a shot. (A duck hunter near my home fell over backward on firing at an overhead bird and accidentally tripped the trigger of his auto. Two pellets struck his partner in the head and killed him.) This makes a pump a good choice in wetlands.

Nevertheless, pump-gun hunters need to become familiar with their guns! Too many of us are once-a-year, borrow-a-shotgun outdoorsmen, and to the uninitiated, pumps seem complicated. I've hunted with men who had no idea how to manually extract shells from the magazine (by depressing the spring lever) and, as a consequence, jacked all the shells through the chamber to unload, and who also did not understand the magazine cut-off mechanism that facilitates the removal of a chambered shell for crossing fences or switching loads. Too often I have seen others fumble with numb fingers to clear shells while the muzzle vacillated between the sky, the ground, the dog, or my head. As hunting writer Wayne van Zwoll says, "Any time you concentrate on the mechanism instead of the behavior, you have a dangerous situation."

Automatic Reactions
With semiautos you have to be constantly vigilant or you may forget that the gun is instantly ready to fire again after a shot. This is a special concern with young hunters, and also with those who switch back and forth among different actions during the year.

Autos are prone to jamming, too. As Cavanaugh points out, "Who wants to be fiddling around with a screwdriver or trying to remove a barrel under field conditions with a live shell in the chamber?" Never look down the barrel of any gun to see if it's clear. In the case of a semiauto, work your finger inside the chamber instead.

Nuts and Bolts
Modern bolt-action rifles are strong, reliable, and quiet, which encourages hunters to hunt—more often and far more safely—with the chamber empty. Each time you open the action, insert a finger to determine whether your rifle is loaded; it's an easy habit to form.

Lately, a lot of press has been generated about bolt-action rifles accidentally firing as the bolt is closed on a chambered cartridge. Remington 700s made prior to March 1982, which require you to push the safety off before lifting the bolt, are most often targeted. (Remington will remove the bolt lock mechanism on some models; contact the company at 877-387-6691 or http://www.remington.com/safety to see if your rifle qualifies.) Assume that a rifle of any manufacture can fire upon either opening or closing the action.

Another bolt-action peccadillo is the trigger, which in some factories is set so heavy that you could tie a leash to it and lead a schnauzer around the block before it would go off. Van Zwoll likens a heavy trigger to a dull axe—unsafe because you have to work too hard to use it. Because the triggers on bolt guns can be readily adjusted, too many do-it-yourselfers make the attempt, inadvertently reducing sear engagement to a dangerous degree. Shell out $85 to a gunsmith who'll do the job right.

Safety Alert
A final word about safeties: Keep them on until it's time to shoot. Raising a gun and slipping off the safety should be a single, practiced motion. But don't rely on any safeties, ever. One and all, they are just slivers of steel.

Contributing editor Scott Bestul put it best: "Who knows why safety mechanisms fail? Carelessness, thoughtlessness, eagerness, aging metal, gremlins…it doesn't really matter once that round goes off." You may win a multimillion-dollar settlement from a firearms manufacturer because your gun fired when it wasn't supposed to. But that won't bring back your brother. That won't bring back your daughter. Because the one thing that can't be recalled is a bullet.

for one I do not totally agree with this article (Posted Above) so I thought I would post this so people know the difference between an *accidental discharge* and an *inadvertent discharge* and design protocall, there is a difference.

I did not write this, but the gentleman who did has forgot more about firearm design and function then most of these self proclaimed "Expert" gun writers ever dreamed.

Remember the writer of the previous article posted above is talking politics and firearm function and the writer of the article I posted is talking firearm function and the law.

He also derives his living from the firearm industry day in day out by building, consulting and repairing firearms not just writing about them.

At the end of this article I will post the engineering design mantra as the writer of this article mentions the "Third Rule" of the Law which is the same third rule of design protocall by engineers, as there is a link between the two.


Regards, Augustis ><>


""Accidental" firings are very common and many times tragic.

An "Accidental" firing is when the holder of the gun somehow trips the trigger and the gun fires without the shooter actually wanting it to. It was an accident.

An "Inadvertant discharge" occurs as the result a design or parts failure within the firearm. These are MUCH more rare, but DO occur.



One of the best examples, and most common right now, of the "accidents" involve cops and Glock handguns. At last count there were over forty cops that've shot themselves in the leg by reholstering a Glock and catch a finger or holster strap in the trigger as the gun is seated in the holster. The gun didn't mess up. The shooter did. It was an accident.



One of the most common "Inadvertant" discharges involve Remington M-700s firing as the safety is released (FSR) or as the bolt is closed (FBC). It's a failure of the firearm to perform as expected and designed. The safety lever is DESIGNED to keep the gun from firing, NOT to act as a trigger. That is a failure of the firearm and not *totally* the shooter's fault. The shooter was operating in a manner expected of a shooter.......the gun didn't.

It seems a small difference between " accidental" and "inadvertant" but there is a vast difference legally and morally. Many people confuse the two and blame it all on the shooter for violating the safe muzzle rule.

The problem is, the safe muzzle rule is impossible.... IF the gun is faulty. OF COURSE the safe muzzle rule should be followed at ALL times.....but in reality it's impossible to do if you don't know *when* the gun will fire.



Safe gun handling *reduces* the dangers of a dangerous firearm. It doesn't *preclude* injury. Bullets travel too far, carry too much kenetic energy, and can change directions too many times to say injury won't happen.

If a gun ONLY fires when the trigger is pulled the shooter is responsible for the bullet and any damage it does. It was an accident caused by the shooter.

If the gun fires WITHOUT the trigger being pulled the holder of the gun is, at least partially, a victim of a bad design or poor manufacturing.........
It's no difference than cranking your car and having it start in "Drive" and at full throttle with the brakes blocked. You're just along for the ride and had no control over the car. Is it your fault you tried to crank it?? Or is it the fault of the designers and builders for making it wrong?

If the designers *knew* it was wrong and had seen the problem before, they're also quilty of the third part of product liability law. They "failed to warn" the driver of the possible problem. That's where juries award lots of money. It's the only way to punish a corporation.......cost them money."

ENGINEERING DESIGN, Three Simple Rules...

In A Nut Shell:

"The standard engineering mantra regarding safety design of a product is first, to design the problem out; second, if you cannot do that, guard against it; and third, if that cannot be done, at least warn about the problem."

quote:

By Augustis:

The problem is, the safe muzzle rule is impossible.... IF the gun is faulty. OF COURSE the safe muzzle rule should be followed at ALL times.....but in reality it's impossible to do if you don't know *when* the gun will fire.

Ah yes, but, we have a clue as to when that is likely to occur. Guns don't go off by themselves. The way I understand the problem, is that these guns only fire when something initiates, or, triggers (no pun) a discharge. Something like removing the safety, closing the bolt, or, God forbid, pulling the trigger.

Flipping the safety on or off and lifting the bolt handle requires a conscious effort. If a person is conscious enought to operate the safety and the bolt, they should be conscious enough to make sure that the muzzle is pointing in a safe direction. The act of pulling the trigger is a different matter and doesn't require much consciousness.

Since leaving the Marine Corps, I have witnessed gun handling traits that are fucked up. I have witnessed people inadvertently playing with, or, pulling their triggers while the guns safeties were engaged, and on at least one occasion, on a hunt, when a fellow thought his safety was engaged, blowing a hole in the ground.

I had a customer come into the shop with his Remington 700 just a few weeks ago saying his gun went off when he lifted the bolt handle. How would that happen? I smiled, wrote up the ticket and serviced the trigger. No fucking way did that gun fire when he lifted the bolt handle, but he told his friends and now the story goes around.

Outside of having a floating connector, the Remington 700 trigger is basically no different than most of the other designs. They have a spring to push the trigger lever back into position, they have a screw that sets the engagement and provides a positive stop for the trigger lever, and they have a safety that physically breaks the connection between the sear and the floating connector. If this trigger is properly cleaned, maintained and adjusted, then it is as predictable and as reliable a machine as any other.

The triggers safety is designed to lift the sear off the connector, and then set it back down. Much like the lever that lifts the arm off the LP on a turn table. (Record player for the younger audience) Operating the safety alone won't cause a gun to fire, UNLESS, something changed from the time you lift the sear (safety on) until the time you set it back down (safety off).

Because of the addition of the separate, or, floating connector, maintenance becomes a big issue with these triggers. Most closed triggers (in solid housings) will fuck up if dirty enough. The floating connector by it's design, can accelerate a problem if it becomes dirty, sticky, or, if the springs tension is insufficient to hold the connector in place. Because it is a separate piece, dirt can force the connector out of engagement with the sear resulting in a malfunction.

Over the past 30 years or so, I have worked on my share of Remington triggers and have studied their design and their potential problems, and I am of the opinion, that almost ALL 700 trigger malfunctions are the result of poor maintenance, improper adjustments, or, that old sticky shit the factory applies as a rust inhibitor.

I further believe that a lot of, but certainly NOT ALL, malfunctions are the result of some asshole playing with their trigger thinking their safety is engaged. The gun goes off and the embarrassed shooter blames the trigger or the safety, and the story spreads.

So professionally speaking, as far as I am concerned, the Remington 700 trigger, when properly maintained and adjusted, is about as safe as any other. It's some of the folks handling the guns that frighten me...

NOW, getting back to your quote Augustis, since it DOES take some kind of physical act to cause the gun to fire, be it by accident or on purpose, we now DO have some idea *when* that gun might be likely to fire, and so the safe muzzle rule is no longer "IMPOSSIBLE".

You gotta quit making excuses for peoples actions...


Disclaimer: Since I am not perfect and therefore in an effort to cover my ass, I have included a few words like "I believe", "sometimes", "occasionally", "almost", "NOT ALL"... you know, words to that effect.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
Over the past 30 years or so, I have worked on my share of Remington triggers and have studied their design and their potential problems, and I am of the opinion, that almost ALL 700 trigger malfunctions are the result of poor maintenance, improper adjustments, or, that old sticky shit the factory applies as a rust inhibitor.

Most guys buy a gun (new or used) and use for years with little or no maintenance. Dirt, rust, the goop from the factory, and rough handling are all to be expected with a hunting rifle. My qualm is that the Rem trigger will/can/has malfunctioned under those conditions. I have no doubt that a Rem trigger can be made to work properly every time when maintained by a knowledgable gunsmith, but most rifles go decades on end without seeing a gunsmith. Hence the accidental discharges.

Personally I like your fix to the Rem trigger, or the idea of replacing the Rem trigger with a Timney as this addresses the problem. If Rem cared about its customers, the fix would have been implemented long ago and we would not have anything to discuss on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Most guys buy a gun (new or used) and use for years with little or no maintenance. Dirt, rust, the goop from the factory, and rough handling are all to be expected with a hunting rifle. My qualm is that the Rem trigger will/can/has malfunctioned under those conditions. I have no doubt that a Rem trigger can be made to work properly every time when maintained by a knowledgable gunsmith, but most rifles go decades on end without seeing a gunsmith. Hence the accidental discharges.

Then perhaps Remington should market their products for those folks who care enough to brush their teeth, mow their lawns, service their cars, pick up after themselves... You know, folks who take care of things. For those who don't want to take care of things there are Rugers. Just kidding!

quote:

Personally I like your fix to the Rem trigger

That's a good quote! Thanks...

quote:

If Rem cared about its customers...

Clearly they do. They still make the 700.

I see the mycrocephalic idiot has once again escaped the laughing academy and gained access to a computer. Lest anyone doubt the dangers of the Remington trigger, just do a "google" search for the subject and see what comes up. Remington has had to settle many law suits because of their fail-on-fire triggers and continue to bury their heads in the sand about it.

Well at least his spelling has improved a bit, he can write "termite food" and holy grail without typos, but then again, when you've written them thousands of times like he has, even a retarded single-cell zygot can learn through repetition. jorge

Okay, I'm not a lawyer or a gunsmith, but, like "art," I know good engineering when I see it. No dancing around it - I want a safety to help me when I F-up. If it isn't going to do that, then I'd rather it wasn't there at all. I sure don't need a second, sometimes, trigger.

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
No dancing around it - I want a safety to help me when I F-up.
Jaywalker

Try unscrewing the firing pin and throwing it away. You should be safe then.

How many of you out there would feel comfortable having a loaded/round in the chamber Winchester 70 (or any other weapon) pointed at you...safety on or safety off?

Rick: That is an absurdly overloaded rhetorical question. ANYBODY that answers "yes" is a fool and anybody that answers "no" justifies Remington's faulty safety design. Point being that NO major arms manufacturer other than Remington has been sued countless times for their fail on fire safety. Other safeties like the 70, Mauser, Ruger, etc are "fail-safe," the exact opposite of Remington. The problem exists and no amount of rhetoric or double-speak is going to change that. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Rick: That is an absurdly overloaded rhetorical question. ANYBODY that answers "yes" is a fool and anybody that answers "no" justifies Remington's faulty safety design. Point being that NO major arms manufacturer other than Remington has been sued countless times for their fail on fire safety. Other safeties like the 70, Mauser, Ruger, etc are "fail-safe," the exact opposite of Remington. The problem exists and no amount of rhetoric or double-speak is going to change that. jorge

jorge,

I believe you missed the point. Remington rifles may or may not have the ability to fire when the safety is moved from safe to fire...and the reason for that can be debated ad nauseam...as this thread will attest.

I think what several people (myself included) have tried to point out is that nothing but soiled pants would have resulted had it not been for people exhibiting unsafe firearms handling by pointing loaded rifles at things they were not willing to destroy.

You can completely remove Remington rifles from the equation and you are still left with a significant amount of people being “accidently†shot each year. How does one explain those “accidentsâ€...and how does one explain all the other brands of fireams that have fired without the trigger being pulled???? Just on this one web site I have seen posts involving model 70’s and Mausers accidently firing with out the trigger being pulled. What caused those rifles to fire...did someone install a Remington trigger in them?

Rick: The answer is simple, when it comes to the 70 or the Mauser, probably a worn sear. Huge difference between an old worn out part that fails and a new one. Look, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one ok? have a great day. jorge

malm:

quote:

Try unscrewing the firing pin and throwing it away. You should be safe then.

Thanks, but then it would broken twice, instead just the way it came from the factory...

Jaywalker

I am with Rick, Malm, Hot Core and others on this thread. I have owned Remington rifles since the early 60's and presently have a safe full and every last one has a Remington trigger, adjusted by me and some are adjusted to extremely light pull weights.
Not once in 40+ years have I had an AD, I respect them for what they are, mechanical mechanisms. I don't slam the bolts closed, pull on the trigger with the safety on and certainly pay attention to where the muzzle is pointed.
Common sence is in very short supply, and the lawyers are quick to chase any ambulance they can find. As mentioned in an earlier post, chevy pick-ups were dangerous because they might blow up, Ford Pintos were an accident(inferno) waiting for a place to happen, and don't forget about Corvairs, unsafe at any speed. Any vehicle with a gas tank on board has the potential to blow up.
I read an article in the Rifleman several years ago about a guy who bought a Remington Model 11(recoil operated) in a pawn shop and decided to have it reblued, well, as the story goes the shop that did the reblue failed to replace the bolt buffer and the owner, on his next outing had his hand over the muzzle and decided to push down on the barrel resulting in a discharge which removed most of his hand. Long story a little shorter, the pawn shop, gun shop, and Remington were named in the law suit and a liberal east coast jury found them all guilty of negligence. Anything mechanical can malfuntion! Especially when some dumb ass is at the controls.
Never have I had a bolt handle come off in my hand either and i've put some of them to the test, perhaps mine were made mid-week rather than Monday or Friday?
Let's face it, there are people on this planet that could screw up an anvil, if given a chance.
500 grains, are you by chance an attorney?
Stepchild

quote:

Ah yes, but, we have a clue as to when that is likely to occur. Guns don't go off by themselves. The way I understand the problem, is that these guns only fire when something initiates, or, triggers (no pun) a discharge. Something like removing the safety, closing the bolt, or, God forbid, pulling the trigger.

Flipping the safety on or off and lifting the bolt handle requires a conscious effort. If a person is conscious enought to operate the safety and the bolt, they should be conscious enough to make sure that the muzzle is pointing in a safe direction. The act of pulling the trigger is a different matter and doesn't require much consciousness.

Since leaving the Marine Corps, I have witnessed gun handling traits that are fucked up. I have witnessed people inadvertently playing with, or, pulling their triggers while the guns safeties were engaged, and on at least one occasion, on a hunt, when a fellow thought his safety was engaged, blowing a hole in the ground.

I had a customer come into the shop with his Remington 700 just a few weeks ago saying his gun went off when he lifted the bolt handle. How would that happen? I smiled, wrote up the ticket and serviced the trigger. No fucking way did that gun fire when he lifted the bolt handle, but he told his friends and now the story goes around.

Malm

"No fucking way did that gun fire when he lifted the bolt handle, How would that happen?"

Excerpts from your post.... That is right how did (or could) that happen?

How does cycling the bolt react on the internal components of the typical one piece trigger, then on the Remington two piece trigger? Think!!!

Do I think it can happen, yes, do I know why it can potentially happen, again yes...

I am not going to answer this question right now, why, because I would like you to for a moment attempt to figure it out because as a Smith I hold you to a higher standard than the others, and you seem pretty sharp IMHO.

This is not a test, so think and be patient and we will compare notes shortly.

Augustis ><>

There sure are lot of Remington bashers on this discussion. My 700 has been set at 2.5 lb on the trigger for 23 perfect years. I do have 541S 22 that is a little strange. If I close the bolt on a cheap 22 bullet like Rems or Winchester they will fire due to thick rims. It is really hard to close the bolt on them. The Fiocchi target bullets work perfectly. Just real tight head spacing is my assumption.

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
I am with Rick, Malm, Hot Core and others on this thread. I have owned Remington rifles since the early 60's and presently have a safe full and every last one has a Remington trigger, adjusted by me and some are adjusted to extremely light pull weights.
Not once in 40+ years have I had an AD, I respect them for what they are, mechanical mechanisms. I don't slam the bolts closed, pull on the trigger with the safety on and certainly pay attention to where the muzzle is pointed.
Common sence is in very short supply, and the lawyers are quick to chase any ambulance they can find. As mentioned in an earlier post, chevy pick-ups were dangerous because they might blow up, Ford Pintos were an accident(inferno) waiting for a place to happen, and don't forget about Corvairs, unsafe at any speed. Any vehicle with a gas tank on board has the potential to blow up.
I read an article in the Rifleman several years ago about a guy who bought a Remington Model 11(recoil operated) in a pawn shop and decided to have it reblued, well, as the story goes the shop that did the reblue failed to replace the bolt buffer and the owner, on his next outing had his hand over the muzzle and decided to push down on the barrel resulting in a discharge which removed most of his hand. Long story a little shorter, the pawn shop, gun shop, and Remington were named in the law suit and a liberal east coast jury found them all guilty of negligence. Anything mechanical can malfuntion! Especially when some dumb ass is at the controls.
Never have I had a bolt handle come off in my hand either and i've put some of them to the test, perhaps mine were made mid-week rather than Monday or Friday?
Let's face it, there are people on this planet that could screw up an anvil, if given a chance.
500 grains, are you by chance an attorney?
Stepchild

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that Remington triggers can’t and don’t have problems at times. What I am saying is that dangerous, careless people should not be using firearms of any brand or type...and I consider people who point rifles at other people dangerous.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
I am with Rick, Malm, Hot Core and others on this thread. I have owned Remington rifles since the early 60's and presently have a safe full and every last one has a Remington trigger, adjusted by me and some are adjusted to extremely light pull weights.
Not once in 40+ years have I had an AD, I respect them for what they are, mechanical mechanisms. I don't slam the bolts closed, pull on the trigger with the safety on and certainly pay attention to where the muzzle is pointed.
Common sence is in very short supply, and the lawyers are quick to chase any ambulance they can find. As mentioned in an earlier post, chevy pick-ups were dangerous because they might blow up, Ford Pintos were an accident(inferno) waiting for a place to happen, and don't forget about Corvairs, unsafe at any speed. Any vehicle with a gas tank on board has the potential to blow up.
I read an article in the Rifleman several years ago about a guy who bought a Remington Model 11(recoil operated) in a pawn shop and decided to have it reblued, well, as the story goes the shop that did the reblue failed to replace the bolt buffer and the owner, on his next outing had his hand over the muzzle and decided to push down on the barrel resulting in a discharge which removed most of his hand. Long story a little shorter, the pawn shop, gun shop, and Remington were named in the law suit and a liberal east coast jury found them all guilty of negligence. Anything mechanical can malfuntion! Especially when some dumb ass is at the controls.
Never have I had a bolt handle come off in my hand either and i've put some of them to the test, perhaps mine were made mid-week rather than Monday or Friday?
Let's face it, there are people on this planet that could screw up an anvil, if given a chance.
500 grains, are you by chance an attorney?
Stepchild

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that Remington triggers can’t and don’t have problems at times. What I am saying is that dangerous, careless people should not be using firearms of any brand or type...and I consider people who point rifles at other people dangerous.

Agreed, 100% That gets back to my point about the anvils, and how long should a maker(manufacturer) be responsible for their product?
The shotgun in question was over 50 years old when the law suit was filed.
Remington is one of the last manufacturers to offer a three way adjustable trigger and ,I for one am grateful, I have had a lot of excellent service from,not only the triggers, but their rifles have have performed excellently! I have hads some with rough bores but NEVER one that could be considered dangerous, unless it was looked at by a lawyer.
Stepchild

Hey Malm, You might be interested in knowing an Official "NON-HACKER" has entered the thread disguised as a pilot. Couldn't cut it in the CORPS so they trashed him into the ferry service dropping sonar bouys on fish.

I seem to remember a quote that goes something like, "I'm trying to think, but nothing happens!" which is either from the "NON-HACKER" or one of the other Stooges.

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
... Anything mechanical can malfuntion! Especially when some dumb ass is at the controls.

Excellent and correct. For some reason when I read that the "NON-HACKER" and AUGUSTIS ><> immediately came to mind. Not saying they are, but.....

quote:

Never have I had a bolt handle come off in my hand either and i've put some of them to the test, perhaps mine were made mid-week rather than Monday or Friday?

Me too. All my Bolt Handles and Extractors are right where they were when I got them.

quote:

Let's face it, there are people on this planet that could screw up an anvil, if given a chance. ...

Sure seems to describe our resident "NON-HACKER" to me, even if you include a Rubber Hammer.

Hey Rick, I do believe you will find out that trying to have a "discussion" with the "NON-HACKER" is like talking to either the above mentioned anvil or AUGUSTIS ><> (must include the fish because he is so religious) - a complete waste of time. All the other M70 and Mauser Trigger Failures just seem to be ignored by those that have the "belk and CBS" mentality and agenda. As you said, there are plenty of trigger problems with the M70s and Mausers described during the past year on this site for anyone to go back and look at.

Edit in: Just noticed this SAKO Trigger problem on the Board as I closed: https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/175108583 No laywers there yet.
---

So AUGUSTIS ><> really wanted me to email him only so he could figure out who I actually am. Of course I saw through the deception of his "friendly" approach because I know him to be what he really is.
---

Ah yes, trying to discuss the good old Totally Safe and Excellently Designed Remington Triggers does seem to bring out a lot of folks that either simply can't understand how Excellent the Design functions, have been fully PT Barnumed or have the old frivilous lawsuit agenda.

quote:

I am not going to answer this question right now, why, because I would like you to for a moment attempt to figure it out

Augustis, I don't know who you are, or what you do, but I'm not in the habit of having to "attempt" to explain, or, figure out anything to anyone, except those whose firearms I repair, build or service. I have an above average grasp on fire control systems, and I am methodical in my troubleshooting skills to the point of being almost "anal". And even though I don't owe you, or, anyone not previously mentioned, any explanations, I may choose on occasion, to address certain topics here, on this forum, in an attempt to provide a reasoned opinion, helpful advise, or, to correct some unsafe practice, or, thought, based on my experience. In other words, I am just another voice in the mix. So be warned, I won't be roped into playing senseless games with you, or anyone here...

That said, let me see if I can explain to you, how I came to the conclusion which prompted me to use the term "no fucking way" in this particular instance.

When a firearm comes into my shop with a particular complaint i.e. "weapon discharged when opening the bolt", I don't assume anything. If the problem isn't obvious, I will ALWAYS have the customer show me, by demonstrating to me, what he was doing when the supposed malfunction occurred. Depending on the complaint, I may have him demonstrate it several times so that I can see exactly what he's doing.

Sometimes I will purposely distract them, by engaging them in conversation during the demonstration. Some people, when distracted, will inadvertently reveal an unconscious habit that may, or, may not help shed light on the complaint.

On this particular occasion, while slightly distracted and with a cocked gun, the customers very first attempt to show me what he was doing resulted in his being caught with his left index finger on the trigger while his right hand was reaching for the bolt handle. I immediately corrected this before he blew an imaginary hole through my entertainment center. Could this have triggered the discharge? Too early to tell.

When pressed, this fellow admitted to being in the habit of pulling the trigger when cycling the bolt so as to release the spring tension from the firing pin. I explained to him why this is not a good habit to be unconsciously involved in, and went on to explain how this could have been the reason for the preceived malfunction. Of course he was embarrassed and he denied it. At that point all I could do is smile, write up a ticket and service the weapon.

Was that the defining moment? No. When I work on a firearm with such a complaint, I don't just go after it blindly. I will perform certain tests to see if I can get the weapon to repeat the malfunction, and then I will pull it from the stock and give it a closer look.

I will manipulate certain pieces to see how well they play together, or, to see if there is an obvious problem that would cause the cocking piece to hop the sear without moving the trigger, keeping in mind that as I lift the bolt handle, the interaction between the cocking piece and the cocking notch is retracting the firing pin, further reducing the likelyhood that this was the cause.

I'll continue to check things such as the engagement of the cocking piece and sear, looking for obvious wear, or, signs of any modifications. I will lift the back end of the bolt to see if I can get it to jump the sear. I will check the sear engagement. I will check to see how freely the trigger lever and connector moves and the amount of spring tension on the connector. I'll check to make sure that the over travel screw is not so tight so as to interfere with the movement of the sear.***

I check the operation of the safety, and then after I have formed an initial mental picture as to the health of the trigger/bolt assembly, I will dismantle it, detail clean and inspect it closer. Then, based on this, I will repair or service the trigger as needed...

For the record, I don't use terms like "No fucking way...", unless there is "No fucking way...". Fact is, based on my initial assessment and later, a very thorough and detailed inspection, I determined that there was no fucking way this gun fired when the customer lifted the bolt handle... This case is closed!

*** Keep in mind that the build up of dirt and debries can change the critical tolerances in trigger assemblies, so don't set the over travel screws too tight or you may end up with the sear jammed against the trigger lever and connector, preventing the sear from completely resetting, creating a dangerous "holding by a hair" condition.

This is a great thread and I would like to thank everyone here who contributed. Why am I thankful? well I went downstairs and tore apart the Model 700 I inherited from my father and checked out the trigger. The trigger was full of gunk and a good cleaning in naptha and several air blasts really cleaned it up. I haven't had a problem to date but after studying the design based upon the great info here I see how I could, especially in cold weather.

Well I am not stupid (at least mechanically) but I never realized the Model 700 trigger design was such. How would I know unless I read this thread?

My conundrum now is do I leave it oil free so it doesn't gum up or do I lightly oil it to prevent rust on a rainy day and lead to same sort of problem?

So it seems the Rem700 requires additional maintenance beyond what is required for my mausers. Now that I know this then human nature being what it is will force me to be extra cautious with this rifle. I know, I know, I should always be extra cautious...well then I will be super duper extra cautious.

quote:

Originally posted by unique:
My conundrum now is do I leave it oil free so it doesn't gum up or do I lightly oil it to prevent rust on a rainy day and lead to same sort of problem?

Craftsman mentioned using Dri Slide, and that is probably THEE perfect lube for it. Whatever you use, keep it light and blow out the excess.

quote:

So AUGUSTIS ><> really wanted me to email him only so he could figure out who I actually am. Of course I saw through the deception of his "friendly" approach because I know him to be what he really is.

Hot Core

Actually I was prepared to send you Remington Internal Documentation that I have reviewed so we could compare notes and discuss that content like rational people to attempt to show you how and why I have derived at some of my conclusions....

also in my attempt to prevent airing Remington's dirty laundry in open forums, but again you have out smarted yourself and have returned to your past tactics, which I prefer really, as it makes it easier for me to ignore and stick to the facts of the topic at hand!

Because of your "Feelings" for me does not make me wrong, so flame away and I will continue to write!!! ;O)

Surely as an "Engineer" not even you could argue with some of the most brilliant engineering minds that Remington employed in the early Du Pont "R&M" years...

...especially Mike Walker and Wayne Leek!

Not that I consider them to be the cream of the crop like Walker or Leek but including Church Prosser who Identified problems with the connector concept when inspecting "customer complaints" and the returned rifles from the field with exactly the same malfunction you described! Then Jim Martin, Clark Workman, Terry Douglas and designers like Fred Martin to name just a few that comes to mind. What common thread and task do you think the later engineers and designer shared as members of Research and Development Dept????

As an engineer surely you would not deny the value of historical analysis in researching a potential problem in a product line if you were charged with updating that line with growing demand from the market?


Malm
Are you aware that brand new rifles inside the plant being inspected and tested during the course of manufacture have experienced the same malfunction you described in your post, They call it "FBO" (fires on bolt opening) there are other conditions that exist also "FBC" (fires on bolt closing) and the most famous "FSR"?

Wayne Leek a test engineer hired from the Aberdeen proving grounds first identified these conditions during the "Pilot Line Inspection" of the M/721 in 1947, yes 1947 the year before the newly developed line of rifles were released for sale to the general public in 1948...

Wayne said in his memo that: (WORD FOR WORD) on 4-9-1947

"There is evidence from the functioning of the above mentioned guns that the connector, safety cam and sear are not within design limits. This situation can be very "DANGEROUS" from a safety and functional point of view and the existing condition has caused the following listed malfunctions to occur in several guns that were inspected:

1) Firing pin moves forward during bolt locking cycle.

2) Possible to fire the gun by pushing the safety to the off position.

3) Occasionally the firing pin moves forward during the bolt locking cycle.

From the inspection standpoint, situation #3 should be considered the "MOST DANGEROUS" in that the malfunction might not occur during the relatively few cycles that the gun would be functioned during inspection"

Of course there are still yet hundreds of other pages that were generated through the years that would complement this one document, however if it happens inside the plant during inspection and Wayne points out that rifles could get out past inspections then it is entirely possible for you to get a complaint of this nature in the field.

But we still have yet to address the why it happens... (To Be Continued...)

Augustis ><>

Augustis, sure wish you'd start postng scans of the many documents in your posession, particularly the Walker documents. They're a damn depressing read but I think the gun buying public has a right to know how deep and dirty the problem is.

My .02 anyway...

Hot Core, I see the shoe obviously fits as I didn't even mention your name, yet you thought to reply. BTW, if you're going to disparage my military service at least do it correctly. There are no such things as "Sonar-Bouys" it's "sono".

Apparently the job as the spell checker at the M&M factory didn't work out. Try swimming in the deeper end of the gene pool, the water's more oxygenated there.

Augustis, you really should publish some of the facts you have, even though some here I'm sure will have an excuse. jorge

For those who are unfamiliar with the Remington memo that is the source of the discussion, and the "1%" failure rate for Remington triggers, I'll post it here.


Jaywalker

Jaywlaker, I've seen that memo but it's only one of the doc's I had in mind. I've always found Mike Walker's internal memo urging Remington to replace his trigger design with an "M70 style" trigger to be particularly enlightening.

Wayne said in his memo that: (WORD FOR WORD) on 4-9-1947

"There is evidence from the functioning of the above mentioned guns that the connector, safety cam and sear are not within design limits. This situation can be very "DANGEROUS" from a safety and functional point of view and the existing condition has caused the following listed malfunctions to occur in several guns that were inspected:“

This raises an interesting question...and seems to contradict some of the claims made by several people on here.

People on here have flatly stated that it is the “design†of the Remington trigger that causes the unsafe condition. Yet, here we have an engineer stating that the parts he inspected were not manufactured within “design limits“ and that this was causing a “dangerous†condition.

I thought it was the design that was at fault???????????

‘Splain’ me that one?