What do you do when your Gunsmith will not listen to you? I know find a new smith, but I needed him to fix the work he had already done. Plus this guy is kind of a friend of sorts.

I took my M93 that I had him build into a .300 Savage back today because I was having head space issues. Basically he told me that my cartridge must form to my chamber and that then I'll adjust my dies to neck size only. He took the rifle back in and said he would take a look at it but basically told me that he didn't think I had a problem.

My head space issue is that the case stretches about .010 and the shoulder moves forward as well about that much and rounds out and even on the lightest of loads it flattens the primer and backs it out a little. Plus the shoulder has an odd shape to it and doesn't even resemble the .300 Savage after firing.

I used a pre-chambered .30-06 barrel I got off of Vapodog that was threaded for a small ring for this build. I'm guessing that the old chamber wasn't completely cleaned up during the set back and chambering process. He almost went ballistic when I suggested that.

All my suspicions were confirmed by Kevin Weaver especially when he had the bolt close on the no-go gage. I drive right by Kevin's shop on the way to and from Snellstrom's private range that I shoot at. Now I didn't tell the guy that built this rifle that Kevin had backed up everything I was thinking, until much later in the conversation when he had pretty much shut down listening to me. After that he was willing to take the rifle back into his shop and take a look at it but I still don't know if it will come back fixed.

first off, i think you're asking for opinions... so here's mine, remember its worthless... i wouldn't have put my smith in the place you got him, unknown quality of barrel, questionable anyway, using a '93 action, (my smith won't)... and then having someone else second guess his work.... sounds bad deal all around... maybe its time to take your loss, wreck it back to parts and start over....

Pay out your present 'smith whatever you might owe him, find a new one and never go back to the previous one. Vote with your dollars. Gunsmith A will get the message...

"kind of a friend of sorts"?

"almost went ballistic"?

Start over. Find another barrel, another gunsmith, and maybe another friend.

I would let him finish up the rifle and walk away. Don't say a word just get your stuff and leave.

Now if he was not a friend My German Bad attitude would read him the Riot Act. and show him a chamber casting just to rub it in.

Most people that take their stuff to a Smith can't do that But they don't know who they are play with when it comes to me personally.

I can't friggin stand crap work and any Smith that I go to has a well established track record of not only putting out top notch work but standing behind what he builds.

If nothing else politely tell him you bought a gauge from brownells and it is showing excessive head space.


The problem is we only have your side to go on. What did you ask him to do exactly?? And did he do it??

He may have done just what you asked knowing full well that it wouldn't be right but you insisted. we were not there to know the deatils

quote:

first off, i think you're asking for opinions....

Yes I am, just may not agree with everyone but that is what I'm asking for.

quote:

i wouldn't have put my smith in the place you got him, unknown quality of barrel, questionable anyway, using a '93 action, (my smith won't)....

He is learning to be a smith, he has had an FFL for several years and handles most of my transfers. He just set up his shop and got his Gunsmiths FFL this past year. He has a machinist back ground but that doesn't make him a smith yet. He asked to build this rifle for me, not the other way around. He wanted to learn to build a Mauser and said if I supplied all the parts he would do it for labor only.

The barrel may have been questionable yes, but a bad chamber is a bad chamber. I just want him to fix it, if it never shoots better than 2" I'll get rid of it. Who knows what this rifle can do though if it has a correct chamber.

quote:

and then having someone else second guess his work.... sounds bad deal all around... maybe its time to take your loss, wreck it back to parts and start over....

The guy I used, didn't have anyway to check the chamber. I had to rent the reamer and the gages for him as he didn't own them. They have long since went back to 4D.

Plus I wasn't going to mention I took it to another smith until he told me I didn't have a clue what I was talking about. I knew I probably shouldn't have mentioned it but I was pretty frustrated at the time, after 30 minutes of talking and him refusing to look at the rifle. Never once did he even pick up the rifle or look at the fired cases even though they were on his counter.

I stopped by Kevin's because he is established and I figured he might have the reamer or at least the gages to check it. I was just going to let Kevin fix it if he had the reamer, but he didn't. Plus Kevin told me to take it back and give my first smith a chance to fix it.

quote:

The problem is we only have your side to go on. What did you ask him to do exactly?? And did he do it??

He may have done just what you asked knowing full well that it wouldn't be right but you insisted. we were not there to know the deatils

You are right you only have my side of the story. My orginal intent was since the action was already D&T was to have him install the barrel, chamber and headspace, re crown if necessary, and re-forge the bolt handle. I wound up going further having him replace the bolt handle, install a speed lock kit, Bold trigger, low swing safety, and Dura Coat it. So I don't know if I'm being unreasonable, but I told him as well that I had access to another blank to use if he was uncomfortable setting the other barrel back and chambering it.

answer is ..
headspace no go guage ..

the end, no discussion .. if he's stuffed it up, then needs to fix .. if not, thank him for a job well done ...

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

said if I supplied all the parts he would do it for labor only.

What a guy!

Life is full of lessons, and some of them are hard, some expensive, and some both.

Live and learn.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

said if I supplied all the parts he would do it for labor only.

What a guy!

I know that didn't come out right, but I've got less than $500 in this rifle which includes parts, labor, reamer rental and new stock. My scrounging ability is pretty good at times.

May be I deserve what I'm getting for doing this so cheap. Trying to give a guy a little business that is starting out. He is hungry and wants to learn, we might just be both having a bad day.

quote:

He asked to build this rifle for me, not the other way around. He wanted to learn to build a Mauser and said if I supplied all the parts he would do it for labor only.

Apparently, you have decided to subsidize his education. You let a self studying student work for you for free. You got all that you paid for. You are lucky his experimentation didn't blow up in your face.

I would politely ask him to return the rifle and take it to a competent gunsmith or abandon the project.

Sounds to me like you gave a bucket of crappy parts to a novice gunsmith and paid him next to nothing for his work. Now you're complaining about the outcome? Time to reconsider your expectations.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

He asked to build this rifle for me, not the other way around. He wanted to learn to build a Mauser and said if I supplied all the parts he would do it for labor only.

Apparently, you have decided to subsidize his education. You let a self studying student work for you for free. You got all that you paid for. You are lucky his experimentation didn't blow up in your face.

I would politely ask him to return the rifle and take it to a competent gunsmith or abandon the project.

+1

Unfortunately, I once had a similar experience…

Had a very nice Carl Gustaffs 6.5x55 re-barreled by a guy that thought he was a gunsmith because he had a lathe and read a lot of books... He ruined a brand new Douglas XX air-gauged barrel by chattering the reamer when he chambered the barrel. He never even told me and I only found out after extracting a fired case that looked like a hex extrusion.

This is a guy that bragged about perfect machine work and his experience at Gunsite in Paulden, AZ, and his personal friendship with Jeff Cooper...

Then when I brought the rifle back the moron had the nerve to suggest that by using PMC ammunition, which “exceeds saami specs” I myself ruined the chamber… As if a hot round could iron your chamber into a stop-sign shape without blowing the rifle up.

It was all I could do to keep from shoving the entire rifle down the guy’s throat.

Sadly, there are LOTS of gunsmiths out that there that would have you believe they are Holland and Holland themselves… but they aint. First off, you are a CUSTOMER, and you should be treated like a CUSTOMER even when doing business with a friend. And if the rifle doesn’t seem right to you, regardless of reason, he should at least make a fair effort to get it the way you want.

IF he doesn’t agree with the way you want your rifle then he can refuse the next job you bring him.

Like me, you will have to find a better gunsmith and classier businessman to correct your rifle.

In the end a guy named Ray Montgomery in Colorado cut 2-inched off my barrel and re-chambered and crowned and the rifle shot like a dream.

I would talk to him again in a couple of weeks after he has a chance to look at it, and you both have a chance to cool down. If he offers to fix it, I'd let him do it, and then see what is there. If he doesn't offer to fix it, I'd politely take the rifle and leave. Don't bring any work back, but if his friendship is worth something to you, regard your initial investment in the rifle as the cost of friendship an let it go.

I had a similar situation with a friend that owned a shop, but had an apprentice taking over the work. I had a set of sights I supplied put on a custom model 70 dangerous game rifle I had built. Express sights were from NECG, with the rear to be milled into a boss on the barrel, so that there was a recoil shoulder holding the sight, and the bottom of the barrel had a recoil lug. Top and sides of the boss was to be milled to a quarter rib look.

When I picked it up, he mentioned to me that the sight didn't fit down tight onto the rib, shifted side to side, but acraglass would fix it after it was blued. He also mentioned that the screws included with the sights were bad, so he put some of his own in and threw the bad ones away. I asked him what was wrong, and he said they didn't match any tap he had. (#8/40 is what they were).

I paid him, took the rifle home, and checked it out. He had also seen fit to sand the express sight so it was loose in the mounting base, and the screws were #6 that he had belt sanded down to go in the holes and cut a slot with a hacksaw. No plug taper shoulder, just fillister heads and the temper drawn to a deep purple by the belt sander.

I took the rifle back, and the apprentice claimed nothing was wrong, and denied sanding the sight. Said it must have come from the factory that way, funny they sanded it after it was blued! He maintained that substituting the wrong screws was an improvement, as if they broke, they would be easier to find and replace, as you could just sand down scope screws. And, that the sight could be easily adjusted for windage anyway, now that it slid easily in the base.

The owner offered to replace the sight and acraglass the base if I would find it and buy it. It had been discontinued from NECG, and a current one wouldn't fit the base. I finally just walked away and decided my friendship with the owner was worth more than the $150 he had charged for mounting the sight.

I'll eventually remill the rib lower to fit, retap the barrel for the #8/40 screws I got to fit, and tighten up the sight by some careful metal movement. I can do the work, just took it to the guy when I didn't have a shop to work in and I wanted it done.

Lesson learned is that sometimes you can't get the original mistake fixed satisfactorily, and have to just eat the loss and go onwards. My friendship with the owner was worth more to me than the $350 barrel, $150 gunsmithing charge, and $100 sight.

dave

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Time to reconsider your expectations.

As far as my expectations go on this rifle. All I want out of this is for it to be head spaced and chambered correctly so it is safe to shoot. Plus I want him to look at my rifle when I tell him that there is a problem with it. I don't think you would expect any less either.

quote:

Sounds to me like you gave a bucket of crappy parts to a novice gunsmith and paid him next to nothing for his work. Now you're complaining about the outcome? Time to reconsider your expectations.

+1

quote:

taylorce1: What do you do when your Gunsmith will not listen to you?

Run.

Well the deal has gone sour because you are expecting quality work from a novice smith. and at a dirt cheep rate to boot.

Not to mention the shape of the parts.

He does need to make it right but what if he can't as in what if he doesn't understand what is wrong or has to much pride to admit he fouled it up??

As with most of these situations it's complex then add in the friendship and it get more dicy.

I still say get the rifle from him in what ever condition it's in and take it to a different Smith and let him fix it if you want or just scrap it and start over. Because it is going to be more expensive to fix it then to start over.

Dont spend another penny on that worthless M93 spanish action.
Oh and also find a real Gunsmith to do business with.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Well the deal has gone sour because you are expecting quality work from a novice smith. and at a dirt cheep rate to boot.

Not to mention the shape of the parts.

I'm not upset with the quality of the rest of his work just that the chamber was out of spec. He did some great work and the rate he charged me was what he offered to do the work for. The guy is starting out, and this isn't his only source of income.

Other than the action everything on this rifle is brand new, even the barrel. I just don't know who made the pre-chambered barrel neither did Vapo. The rest of the parts were brand new that I found good deals on and that is where the scrounging came in. Timney low swing safety, Dayton Traister cocking piece and firing pin spring, Bold trigger, Brownell's bolt handle.

Here is what the rifle looks like. He did far better than I expected on the rifle. But when a no-go gage chambers easily I have a problem that I want fixed.

A good Smith is hard to find so when you do find one Stay with them.....

Take this as a lesson learned and move forward.

"Good Deals" ---- a very relative term.

PTG go and no go gauges will run about $70 for the set. I say get the guages, go into the shop and show him the bolt closing on the nogo, if that doesn't convince him take your gun and walk out the door. Can't be much of a friend if he won't even stand by his work for you.

Well on the bright side there is plenty of shank on that barrel to cut off and start over with a fresh chamber as long as the barrel still retains enough OAL to be be legal (16 inch).

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
Well on the bright side there is plenty of shank on that barrel to cut off and start over with a fresh chamber as long as the barrel still retains enough OAL to be be legal (16 inch).

23" barrel

Just got a phone call from the smith. He has the rifle and he agrees there is a problem in the chamber. He is going to get the head space gages and check it out. He said he will fix the problem.

He did apologize for for our confrontation and explained that he lost his Father yesterday morning. He will be flying out to CA for the funeral and to settle his affairs. He explained as well that he would be at least two weeks in CA and that he would take care of it when he got back.

Now you have another opportunity to maintain the friendship. Count your blessings.

A similar thing happened to me, but it wasn't the quality of work that was the problem. It was the price instead. My friend, like yours, was taking on a second career, in his retirement years. He was an oral surgeon, so you can imagine he is very particular, if not peculiar. He also has a different perspective on money, compared to most folks.

Anyway, short story, he had a very well known shop do the barrel work, chambering fitting etc. and he took on the rest, and I had no idea how deep I was into the project money wise, until delivery.

It was my fault for that, because I assumed too much.

So, I never even let on that I thought it was way out of line. Instead I paid up, and moved on. He is still a friend and that is most important, after all.

In my case, I have a very accurate rifle, which helps soothe the issue.

KB

Before you spend to mutch anger on an old POS m93, with an excessive headspace. Please find out how mutch the headspace is abowe the No Go. Remember that there is verry different tolerences on those gauges.
The action might be so soft, and the bearingsurface so poor, that it originaly was within specs.
In the industry there is hardly no alarmbells ringing unless it can close on a field gauge.
Basically calm down, and realise that you have a discount project, and if he is willing to set the barrel back, and clean up the chamber. concider yourselve a lucky man, with a good friend.

I often gets extremely tiered from listening to all the eksperts telling about there faboulus tolerences when making headspaces.
Remember that it is not concidered problematic from a safety point, unless it can close on a field gauge.
Also remember that in manny cases even decent factoryloads, can measure more than 0.02" shorter than max.
It is not uncommon to se factoryrifles and even customrifles made by gurues, that can close on some no go gauges.
A lot of reloadingdies in combination with caseholders, can often vary substantially

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

23" barrel

Just got a phone call from the smith. He has the rifle and he agrees there is a problem in the chamber. He is going to get the head space gages and check it out. He said he will fix the problem.

He did apologize for for our confrontation and explained that he lost his Father yesterday morning. He will be flying out to CA for the funeral and to settle his affairs. He explained as well that he would be at least two weeks in CA and that he would take care of it when he got back.

Well there you go it just took him some time to think about it. Guilt has a way of curing people. And don't even get me started with that POS comment. Beauty, purpose, function, are all in the eye of the beholder. It maybe pieced together from scrounged parts but it ain't bubba'ed

How many double rifle are out there built on a shotgun action??? they are hobbed together from parts as well and usually from action that are not considered fit for use as a shot gun. L.C. Smith ring a bell?? that action carries so much stigma with it, it's like a lime green leisure suit But people rebuild those shotguns in to some very nice shotguns and rifles.
Don't knock it because it's not a 98. It's still a Mauser and still a very useful rifle.

That said though, Do not dump a boat load of money into it unless you know for sure you will not sell it because you would never get what you have sunk into it.

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
Before you spend to mutch anger on an old POS m93, with an excessive headspace. Please find out how mutch the headspace is abowe the No Go. Remember that there is verry different tolerences on those gauges.
The action might be so soft, and the bearingsurface so poor, that it originaly was within specs.
In the industry there is hardly no alarmbells ringing unless it can close on a field gauge.
Basically calm down, and realise that you have a discount project, and if he is willing to set the barrel back, and clean up the chamber. concider yourselve a lucky man, with a good friend.

I often gets extremely tiered from listening to all the eksperts telling about there faboulus tolerences when making headspaces.
Remember that it is not concidered problematic from a safety point, unless it can close on a field gauge.
Also remember that in manny cases even decent factoryloads, can measure more than 0.02" shorter than max.
It is not uncommon to se factoryrifles and even customrifles made by gurues, that can close on some no go gauges.
A lot of reloadingdies in combination with caseholders, can often vary substantially

Fuck a bunch of that. Because those actions tend to be soft, you really want minimum headspace. Better for accuracy and much better for action life. Besides, a freshly chambered & fitted barrel should not close on a no-go gage.

Sure, you can fireform cases then necksize only but it is preferable to able to use factory ammo in a hunting rifle that is chambered in a factory round.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
Before you spend to mutch anger on an old POS m93, with an excessive headspace. Please find out how mutch the headspace is abowe the No Go. Remember that there is verry different tolerences on those gauges.
The action might be so soft, and the bearingsurface so poor, that it originaly was within specs.
In the industry there is hardly no alarmbells ringing unless it can close on a field gauge.
Basically calm down, and realise that you have a discount project, and if he is willing to set the barrel back, and clean up the chamber. concider yourselve a lucky man, with a good friend.

I often gets extremely tiered from listening to all the eksperts telling about there faboulus tolerences when making headspaces.
Remember that it is not concidered problematic from a safety point, unless it can close on a field gauge.
Also remember that in manny cases even decent factoryloads, can measure more than 0.02" shorter than max.
It is not uncommon to se factoryrifles and even customrifles made by gurues, that can close on some no go gauges.
A lot of reloadingdies in combination with caseholders, can often vary substantially

Fuck a bunch of that. Because those actions tend to be soft, you really want minimum headspace. Better for accuracy and much better for action life. Besides, a freshly chambered & fitted barrel should not close on a no-go gage.

Sure, you can fireform cases then necksize only but it is preferable to able to use factory ammo in a hunting rifle that is chambered in a factory round.

Basically we dont disagree. What i ame saying is that gauges is NOT OF CONSTANT dimention, and gauges from different mfg's can vary almost as mutch as the tolerence between Go and No Go.
Not to mention the diferences between SAAMI and CIP, on some calibers the difference is larger than the distance from go to no go.

Have you ever checked the difference between gauges from different batches and mfg's. If you ever had, you wouldn't be quite so direct in your statement.

Try to google a phenomen called "Delta L"

According to the M93 Mexican mauser, it is according to my limmited expierence(apx 130 pcs rebuild in 1985), The Weakest, the Softest, the most wobbely and the one with the most limited finish and poorest steelquality, i have come across, of almost all mauservariants.

According to using factoryrounds in an action, what does an increased headspace of 0.0011" matter compared to differences in factoryloads of 0.016"

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Well the deal has gone sour because you are expecting quality work from a novice smith. and at a dirt cheep rate to boot.

Not to mention the shape of the parts.

I'm not upset with the quality of the rest of his work just that the chamber was out of spec. He did some great work and the rate he charged me was what he offered to do the work for. The guy is starting out, and this isn't his only source of income.

Other than the action everything on this rifle is brand new, even the barrel. I just don't know who made the pre-chambered barrel neither did Vapo. The rest of the parts were brand new that I found good deals on and that is where the scrounging came in. Timney low swing safety, Dayton Traister cocking piece and firing pin spring, Bold trigger, Brownell's bolt handle.

Here is what the rifle looks like. He did far better than I expected on the rifle. But when a no-go gage chambers easily I have a problem that I want fixed.

Actualy the job done on this rifle look quite decent
Please dont draw all the eksperts attention to the rear hole of the front base, then we can have another bunch of rolling eyes, and ekspertstatements about the compleete ignorance of your gunsmith.
Also dont draw atetion to the nice looking bolthandle, that manny experts would find without taste and of hopeless design

BTW did Kevin actually determin how mutch the headspace was above NoGo, or if it would close over a Field.

My advise is still DON'T dump your gunsmith because of this project

Be mindful that when you get the rifle back, he will have set the shoulder back and your barrel channel will have gaps. So be ready for another disappointment.

I don't necessarily agree with all the POS M93 comments. Some are OK. The actions have the slim small ring lines folks pay megabucks to get. If you have a well-used M93 and you dismount the barrel to find no signs of wear then you probably have a decent action. Especially if re-barreling to a relatively low pressure round like a .300 Savage. If not, don't use it.

If the cylinder on the barrel is big enough, cut the threads off and start over, with someone else doing the work. Remember he wanted to get some experience doing this job, only he is to head strong to admit he messed up, or maybe the pictures or articles he was suing as instructions left out one step thinking it was to be reading material for real experienced gunsmiths that didn't need nurse maiding through all of the baby steps.

If he is a real friend don't through it in his face, but if it does ever come up show him the before and after results, and tell him don't worry it has been fixed,

quote:

Just got a phone call from the smith. He has the rifle and he agrees there is a problem in the chamber. He is going to get the head space gages and check it out. He said he will fix the problem.

Is it just me or does the "going to get the headspace gages" kinda jump out as a likely reason for the problem in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:


According to the M93 Mexican mauser, it is according to my limmited expierence(apx 130 pcs rebuild in 1985), The Weakest, the Softest, the most wobbely and the one with the most limited finish and poorest steelquality, i have come across, of almost all mauservariants.

Here we are in total agreement.

quote:

Originally posted by TCLouis:

quote:

Just got a phone call from the smith. He has the rifle and he agrees there is a problem in the chamber. He is going to get the head space gages and check it out. He said he will fix the problem.

Is it just me or does the "going to get the headspace gages" kinda jump out as a likely reason for the problem in the first place.

He is a guy just starting out, didn't have the reamer or the gages. I stated this in earlier post, that I rented him both from 4D so that he could chamber the rifle. I stopped by Kevin Weavers to have him check the head space because I thought he might have them on hand.

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
Please dont draw all the eksperts attention to the rear hole of the front base, then we can have another bunch of rolling eyes, and ekspertstatements about the compleete ignorance of your gunsmith.

I don't have to when you seem obliged to do it. I was worried about that as well but z1r looked at the stripped action and said that there was plenty of web left to make the action safe. If you had looked at the earlier posts I made, this action was already drilled and tapped, the smith I used didn't do this.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

I don't have to when you seem obliged to do it. I was worried about that as well but z1r looked at the stripped action and said that there was plenty of web left to make the action safe. If you had looked at the earlier posts I made, this action was already drilled and tapped, the smith I used didn't do this.

Personally i don't have any problems with that hole placement, i actualy find it the most safe, as it is located in the most beefy area of the action. This area is the way the strongest of the two lugbearing surfaces in the action, supporting the way weakest of the two lockinglugs, The hole is located in the non presurebearing area just under the split in the upper lug. During all my destructive test of various actions, i never succeded in damaging this specific area. (on the other hand some might say i succeded in destroying all the mauseractions that we rebuild)

But don't listen to me, as i am only an amateur, with expierence limited to a few thuosend rebuild mauseractions. And a fool who has only performed a few strength calculations on various of those actions, along with a few dosents of deliberately destroyed actions, both static presuretests, and direct blowuptests. so what do i know? compared to all the eksperts

Some people might think i ame a bit ironic in my answers to this kind of responces on sutch posts as you have made.

You actually didnt answer if Kevin realy did determin the actual headspace, or he only did a no go test, with a gauge that perhaps is a fraction shorter than the one rented for your gunsmith

taylorce1,
I think the lesson is, your gunsmith is not really a gunsmith.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

"He is learning to be a smith..."

"He wanted to learn to build a Mauser..."

"...he told me I didn't have a clue what I was talking about."

"...after 30 minutes of talking and him refusing to look at the rifle."

"Never once did he even pick up the rifle or look at the fired cases even though they were on his counter."

Those who are truly committed to the process of learning do not respond to feedback in this manner. Sounds like another of the ones we read about here all too often...