after all is said and done, what are the new acceptable load pressure limits????

and with actions like the Brno 21 and Zg47, what max load PSI can they tolerate in their original factory HT state?

I suspect the answer is that they can take a lot more than the cartridge brass can. I think the weak link in the hand-loading chain is the brass.

So can one safely run factory .375ruger-(63Kpsi)..??

Trax: I personally wouldn't answer that question...even if I knew...for a million dollars and only if I carried about a billion dollars liability policy

New cartridges go very well with new guns. I hear tell you can get a controlled feed Ruger in 375 Ruger and gussy it up a bit ( new bolt handle, decent wood, longer barrel, etc.) without breaking the bank.

Yeh, but can one go to Africa with ones snazzy converted military M98 .375Ruger Or .375H&H,... happen to loose their handlloads in transit,
then confidently use factory ammo without bending or breaking the action!!..??..
seems like the argument that 375H&H is the better choice, because of ammo being more available in Africa than .375ruger, may become an invalid point in some respects?
Modern 375H&H is factory loaded to industry max. 53kCUP, SAMMI Spec 62,000psi...?

SAAMI max pressure for both .375s is the same.
-----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

55kcup for the 375 hh, and 62,888psi for the ruger

which is, as mark said, the same

Trax,
375 ruger will work fine in a reheattreated M-98.
for these reasons. 375 Ruger VS 375 H&H

The 375 Ruger
1. No extra material removal needed from the feed ramp area of the action to get the round in the action. (wider box needed)

2. The 375 ruger has less taper in the case.
Less taper mean less bolt face thrust.
Less bolt face thrust can't be all bad.

Defense of the 375 H&H

AS you, know many 375 H&H rifles have successfully been built and used. On modified STD-M98 actions.

So either way.......... your good.
The H&H is time proven over the years, many built.

Either cartridge will ruin about any action. If you let or cause that to happen.
Timan

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
So can one safely run factory .375ruger-(63Kpsi)..??

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Trax: I personally wouldn't answer that question...even if I knew...for a million dollars and only if I carried about a billion dollars liability policy

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
New cartridges go very well with new guns. I hear tell you can get a controlled feed Ruger in 375 Ruger without breaking the bank.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Yeh, but can one go to Africa with ones snazzy converted military M98 .375Ruger Or .375H&H,... happen to loose their handlloads in transit, then confidently use factory ammo without bending or breaking the action!!..??.. seems like the argument that 375H&H is the better choice, because of ammo being more available in Africa than .375ruger, may become an invalid point in some respects? Modern 375H&H is factory loaded to industry max. 53kCUP, SAMMI Spec 62,000psi...?

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
Trax, 375 ruger will work fine in a reheattreated M-98.

The 375 Ruger
1. No extra material removal needed from the feed ramp area of the action to get the round in the action. (wider box needed)

2. The 375 ruger has less taper in the case.
Less taper mean less bolt face thrust.
Less bolt face thrust can't be all bad.

AS you, know many 375 H&H rifles have successfully been built and used. On modified STD-M98 actions. So either way.......... your good. The H&H is time proven over the years, many built.

Either cartridge will ruin about any action. If you let or cause that to happen.
Timan

Choices, choices – humm…….

Let’s see – Ruger factory rifle – take out of the box, take to the range, shoot 5 -10 times to sight in – with the remaining ten or fifteen cartridges go hunting anywhere in the world, for practically anything. One could perhaps take an extra box or two of factory ammo for an extended trip. Can’t get much simpler than that.

Custom 375 Ruger on re-heat treated mil-sup Mauser 98 action:
Find suitable '98 action, $200 (maybe oxymoron for stated purpose at any price)
Send off for heat treating $100 including postage
Wider magazine box $400
Fit magazine box to action $100
Alter feed rails, and feed ramp for proper feeding $????
Remove a little metal under the feed ramp for extra length box $????
Alter bolt face, drill and tap for scope bases, surface grind $100 if you’re lucky
Good trigger – installed $100 minimum
Shroud three position safety $250 ??
Barrel, installed $400
Sights, barrel band swivel stud $300
Stock – finished - wood $400 - $2500
Hogue stock – drop in (alternate) $200

I probably left something out, but that’s enough to make my point.

And after it’s all done, you’re still not certain that the Mauser will last through the safari.

To me this is a no-brainer. Thinking too much about it is the only reason it’s complicated.

My recommendation - buy the Ruger, use the money saved to upgrade the lodging accomodations on your hunting trip and take you wife or sweety along.

Get your gun, get game, and get laid too, and make points with the wife. Can't get much better.

KB

Timan,
No forward metal removal and less bolt thrust-gives .375Ruger the double thumbs up.

Poking around I found this 9,3x64B M98 , that seems to digest RWS factory Ok,..and I believe were taking pressures approaching 64,000psi.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

And after it’s all done, you’re still not certain that the Mauser will last through the safari.

To me this is a no-brainer. Thinking too much about it is the only reason it’s complicated.


KB

I have to disagree with you on this. If you have tested the mauser, as you should with any rifle before taking it half way around the world, there is no need to worry.

I have never heard of any mauser developing a problem related to pressure while on safari.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Timan,
No forward metal removal and less bolt thrust-gives .375Ruger the double thumbs up.

If you are thinking no forward metal removal is necessary for the 375 Ruger in a military 98 action, you are mistaken. Some will have to be removed to fit the longer magazine box. The standard mil sup 98 box just isn't long enough. Of course the H&H will require more metal removal.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

And after it’s all done, you’re still not certain that the Mauser will last through the safari.

To me this is a no-brainer. Thinking too much about it is the only reason it’s complicated.


KB

I have to disagree with you on this. If you have tested the mauser, as you should with any rifle before taking it half way around the world, there is no need to worry.

I have never heard of any mauser developing a problem related to pressure while on safari.

Potential pressure problem are the least of what I was talking about. I have no way to judge what a re-heat treated mauser will stand up to regarding pressure. For me it's a moot issue, because I'll never know since I'll avoid such a Mauser like a bomb.

Asside from pressure, there are many other issues that could cause failure, or at least aggrivation with such a gun on safari. It's going to have to be tested thoroughly for feeding, and function, and if not OK, then wait another year for it to get back from the smith.

If the donar action was any modern action starting with a FN for example, or the CZ 550 medium, and there are many other great examples, including the Ruger, then pressure becomes a non-issue if the ammo is within SAAMI specs. Amazingly, feeding and many of the other issues, which may cause the safari to crash, or result in using a borrowed rifle, simply go away.

Why make it complicated just to use an old mauser action?

KB

quote:

originally posted by Kabluewy:
If you are thinking no forward metal removal is necessary for the 375 Ruger in a military 98 action, you are mistaken. Some will have to be removed to fit the longer magazine box. The standard mil sup 98 box just isn't long enough. Of course the H&H will require more metal removal.

Industry specs list max. length at 3.340", Hornady factory measures at 3.247".
Hodgdon states load lengths between 3.270" & 3.320"
How much feedramp needs to be removed?

quote:

I suspect the answer is that they can take a lot more than the cartridge brass can. I think the weak link in the hand-loading chain is the brass.

This is true of any firearm that uses fixed ammunition having a cartridge case.....

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

Industry specs list max. length at 3.340", Hornady factory measures at 3.247".
Hodgdon states load lengths between 3.270" & 3.320"
How much feedramp needs to be removed?

On every military action I've worked with and replaced the magazine with a mark x or FN or other box, a little metal had to be removed on the front ramp. It's not enough to matter but my point was that you and the other fellow kept saying none, which isn't true. "None" is different than "little", because it won't work until the little is removed. Although the amount if metal removed is little, there is a vast difference in working or not working.

More importantly the inside of the feed ramp will have to be opened, and the feed rails altered -- carefully -- to get the fat cartridge to feed. In my experience there is about a 50-50 chance of success with that, which of course varies with the gunsmith.

In comparison, using an action that left the factory already set up to feed a magnum cartridge at least brings the probability of clean and slick feeding success up to close to 100% with no dinking around with feed rail, ramp, box, follower, etc.

I've seen it before, and done it myself a few times, have a rifle put together, listen to the gunsmith when he said no problem to make it feed, and have the finished rifle feed really bad. Subsequent dinking around didn't cure the problem. Now I do my best to make sure the action feeds the intended cartridge before committing to a project with it.

It sort of amuses me these guys sinking a lot of money into a purty rifle, great walnut and all and the darn thing wont feed properly. It also sort of amuses me the guys who are determined to go down that path and won't listen or have selective listening. I guess we are all that way somehow.

So, I'll narrow this down. Listen or not, it's your dime. If you are determined to use an old Mauser, then insist that the first step is to get it to feed, eject, etc., with a full magazine of dummy rounds. I emphasise - insist - do not listen to any discussion about doing it later after the rifle is put together.

It's something that has to be done anyway, so why not first. Take any old magnum chambered barrel that will screw onto the receiver, shove the dummy cartridges in the magazine and push them forward until they either fail, or pop up under the extractor, aligned with the bore. There is no need to push them all the way forward or be able to close the bolt at this stage. This is just a feeding exercise. If you can get the cartridges to cycle just moving the bolt back and forth, then that's close enough to proceed, and do the finishing feeding touches on the complete rifle.

KB

Well seeing youve done a few, Id say you found it within yourself to have measured and noted what you needed to remove,
so just for the record, how much metal do you remove?

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Well seeing youve done a few, Id say you found it within yourself to have measured and noted what you needed to remove,
so just for the record, how much metal do you remove?

For the record - I hire it done.

Also, that's a silly assed question. Are you trying to make a point? The measurment will vary from action to action, depending on which bottom metal is used. Some of the more expensive units I hear get some of the extra length at the rear of the box.

KB

Not a silly question at all, just asking how much was removed from the front ramp for a 375 Ruger when using an markX, FN or öther box.. you only mentioned removal from the front ramp in you previous post, so I gather no metal is removed from the rear with those boxes?

quote:

On every military action I've worked with and replaced the magazine with a mark x or FN or other box, a little metal had to be removed on the front ramp...

Kabluewy
It sounds like you need to find a new smith. Properly feeding a larger cartridge in a Military contract 98 takes much more than just dinking around. The customer should expect to pay what it takes to do it right the first time. Not have the attitude going into the project that the finished product is going to have a 50% chance of being junk.

How do feel about shooting factory 375H&H Interarms or Pre64M70 in 375H&H. They're just opened up standard actions. Not engineered for the cartridge.

I wonder what a client would think if I billed him by the hour for "dinking around"?

Here's the way it works.

The standard military 98 action and magazine box generall have about the same length with some variations in a few thousands of inch. There are other variants such as intermediate actions, but I'm not talking about that.

If a guy wants to rebarrel such an action in say 30-06, the best thing is to replace the magazine box assembly with the more modern commercial version such as a Mark X or FN, etc. because such commercial bottom metal was designed to accomodate the overall length of the 30-06. These boxes vary a little in length so the amount of metal removed from the receiver will vary too.

Then there is the H&H length box, which requires a lot more metal removal up front, but the actual amount will vary a little too.

So, there are basically three box lengths - the mil spec for 8x57 etc. -- the 98 commercial action length for 30-06 etc. and the H&H length for 300 & 375 H&H.

There are lots of custom variants on these.

Regardless of some slight variation in cartridge OAL, all the modern cartridges I can think of fitting into the middle length catagory will fit into a magazine box of the proper length for the 30-06. I'm excluding cartridges such as the 308 Win, and 300 Weatherby, which are shorter and longer, and a different box is applicable.

So, as I understand it the 375 Ruger cartridge was designed to fit into the same length box that is commonly available for the 300 Win Mag or 338 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag. The length of the box is the same commonly used for the 30-06. The width may vary for a magnum to feed properly, and a different follower may enhance feeding. So, you don't need to worry so much about the specs for cartridge OAL. It is what it is, and the cartridge is designed to fit into a standard length magazine box. It's too long to work properly in the 98 mil spec magazine.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Kabluewy
It sounds like you need to find a new smith. Properly feeding a larger cartridge in a Military contract 98 takes much more than just dinking around. The customer should expect to pay what it takes to do it right the first time. Not have the attitude going into the project that the finished product is going to have a 50% chance of being junk.

How do feel about shooting factory 375H&H Interarms or Pre64M70 in 375H&H. They're just opened up standard actions. Not engineered for the cartridge.

I wonder what a client would think if I billed him by the hour for "dinking around"?

Finding a new gunsmith is within my definition of dinking around, broadly interpreted. However, I agree with you – mostly. It’s not a matter of attitude for me as it is results based on past experience. I went in with the “attitude” of success, and that ain’t what happened. Attitude had little to do with it up front, but maybe developed over time. I agree that the customer should expect to pay what it takes to do it right the first time. I’m also saying talk is cheap, but results – good or bad – are expensive and maybe frustrating. I’m just advising the customer that having the attitude of “show me”, rather than talk about it, is maybe a good thing. I consider messing around with an old Mauser to get it to work with a cartridge it wasn’t design for “dinking around” period. That especially includes messing around with the feed rails, and box, ramp, etc. regardless of how scientific a gunsmith says his skill level has evolved.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, whichever way you want to look at it, my days of dinking around with old military Mausers is limited. Now, not only do I have the “attitude” of show me, but my attitude includes avoiding a re-heat treated Mauser like a bomb.

Don’t get me wrong, I like old Mausers. However, these days I like the 8x57. What a wonderful combo. Just like they were made for each other. I suppose Paul Mauser and the millions spent by the German war machine shows what results can be attained from dinking around with gun parts. My pockets ain't so deep.

For me, when dealing with some custom project, my formula for enhansing the gunsmith's success and my satisfaction, is to minimize the alterations of the action to get it to feed properly by matching the action with the cartridges it was originally designed for. I have abandoned a 9.3x64, 376 Steyr, 8x68S, and other projects because of the degree of action alterations needed. The best action for a given project will require no alterations at all, especially heat treating. Projects like this cost a lot of money, so I can't see starting with something that is basically junk, and requires special metalurgy to keep it from setting back on the lugs. If we were discussing an 8x57 project - that's a little different, but still I would avoid an action that was inadequately heat treated when it left the factory.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

quote:

I suspect the answer is that they can take a lot more than the cartridge brass can. I think the weak link in the hand-loading chain is the brass.

This is true of any firearm that uses fixed ammunition having a cartridge case.....

I can't believe I am going to disagree with El Deguello, after ~ 8 years of admiring his posts!

A) I have blown up a number of 38 specials.
The cylinder splits into two or three pieces and sometimes the top strap is broken.
In the work up, there is no brass failure up to that point.
It is 2, 4, or ~ 6 gr. above the max 357 mag max load.

B) I have blown a number of CZ52 pistols. The chamber splits before when the primer pocket would grow in a work up. The primer pocket expansion can be reached in the stronger Tokarev pistol, contrary to what the load books say.

I must qualify this.
These are firearms with chamber walls ~ .050" thick.
The M98 rifles have walls more like ~.500" thick.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
my attitude includes avoiding a re-heat treated Mauser like a bomb.

If you could use an action that was re-heat treated to Tom Burgess' or D'arcy Echols' specifications, by the facility they use, would you feel comfortable using it for a magnum cartidge?

My avoidance of re-heat treated Mausers is based mostly on personal opinion and is very subjective rather than objective. It's not based in scientific fact, or arguable fact. It's based on personal choice, and please don't confuse me with the facts.

We all have that option sometimes, and this is mine.

I feel far more comfortable with a decision to use an action like the CZ 550, which has a forged receiver, for a project for anything but the standard Mauser cartridges, 8x57, 7x57, 6.5x55, 9.3x62, etc. and lately I feel better about using a CZ or Ruger for everything, and leaving the Mausers for other folks.

I made a decision a few years back to avoid a Mauser action for a magnum cartridge altogether. This is not because of pressure, bolt thrust, but simply because I can find better actions requiring no alteration for feeding. They may exist, but I have never seen a Mauser that fed good enough for me with a magmnum cartridge. I've seen many many Mausers that feed the standard Mauser cartridges very well.

KB

Kabluewy, I applaud your recognition of the difference between fact and opinion. For what it is worth, I tend to listen more to someone who does not try to pass off their opinion as fact. I am partial to old Mausers, Arisakas, and Mosin Nagants with the occasional P14/17s, and some of the odd straight pulls. I am partial to them because of a lot of baggage from my childhood and a favorite uncle. I can point out why I like them but it boils down to my opinion. I like them so much, I hand made two Mauser actions when I was in my early 20’s and when I retired, I managed to get a job where I get to make new Mauser style actions. I do not pretend they do not do the same job as a host of other rifles; these are just the ones I like best.
I would postulate that TRAX is trying to make sure his/her rifle project is going to be less of a gamble than it appears to him/her right now. To this end, I would like to offer the following advice.
See if you can find numerous examples of these cartridges causing these actions to fail. It does less good to ask the opinion of those that theorize without having experience to compliment training or knowledge.
While this is slightly off topic, I think a lot of good background information can be had by reading Hatcher’s notebook several times and spending some time thinking about what actually happens inside a firearm post-ignition. Lots of eclectic information in this book.
The third thing I would do is exactly what TRAX is doing; gathering information and opinions from widely varying sources and evaluating the validity of those opinions. I tend to search the past posts of individuals as a means of evaluating their validity, if they are all reasonable posts and use a logic that hangs together, their opinion does not go to the bottom of the pile but is rather laid aside for future consideration and further evaluation.
I tend to err on the side of caution. Unless I am willing to lose the money or risk injury, I tend to make incrementally small changes toward anything like reloading, cartridge conversions, or my next wife, so far, I have not blown up any guns, or tried to put a .338 lapua in a 1891 Argentine Mauser; I have, however, been married three times, the last of which is going on 21 years. I will refrain from offering marriage advice. I suspect my opinion on what makes a good relationship may not be worth much either.
As to the rifle and safety, if you feel you need that much ft/lbs on target, do not ”upload” a smaller cartridge, get one designed to do the job without moving out of the midrange of the loads developed for it. This may help lead you to an answer your questions about the actions.
I feel this advice is sound, but as Kabluewy has mentioned, it is still my opinion. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by impingement:
Kabluewy, I applaud your recognition of the difference between fact and opinion. For what it is worth, I tend to listen more to someone who does not try to pass off their opinion as fact.
I tend to err on the side of caution. Unless I am willing to lose the money or risk injury, I tend to make incrementally small changes toward anything like reloading, cartridge conversions, or my next wife, so far, I have not blown up any guns, or tried to put a .338 lapua in a 1891 Argentine Mauser; I have, however, been married three times, the last of which is going on 21 years. I will refrain from offering marriage advice.

IMO, you my friend are a wiser man than I. Any man who can hold a marriage together for 21 years has something going for him. Congrats.

My only advice about marriage is don't marry a Ukrainian, but if you must and think with the wrong head, get a pre-nep.

Best Regards.
KB