Gents:

I was speaking with a man today who did a lot of repairs over the years for Winchester. Since I don't know what it's called I was trying to describe to him the use of various machines you see holding a rifle action when it is being blueprinted. See? Don't even know what one is called!

At any rate, he was of the opinion that for a hunting rifle the use of such machinery is tantamount to fraud being perpetuated upon the customer in an effort to inflate job prices. Yet, I know folks like Penrod and Echols remachine actions as an integral part of their work.

I'm curious to hear member opinions and please tell me what such a machine is called! Isn't part of the process which involves recutting threads at the front of the action to ensure the barrel, when installed, is concentric with the axis of the bore?

Jeff

I've never had a hunting rifle action "blue printed" or even squared for the most part. With a good barrel I have never had and issue with getting sub MOA usually sub .75MOA. For a big game hunting rifle I can see no reason to spend more $$ to try and get smaller.

Long range varmint or target rifle then yes I would and have.

To get the most out a rifle it is always best to perform what are rather simple operations to "square" certain aspects of the action; I do these on every rifle I rebarrel: Square the front ring, clean boltface as needed, square bolt lugs, lap receiver lugs. These operations, along with proper chambering techniques makes for accurate rifles, and IMO, if you're going to use the rifle to take the life of a game animal you ought to make that rifle as accurate as feasible--IMO a lot more important for your shot to be true on a living animal than a target.

I won a Rem Model 700 .270 win at an SCI raffle that at best would shoot a 1 3/4" 100 yard 3 shot group. Typical groups were 2 1/2" plus. It is a CDL stainless with a fluted barrel. I sent it out to a gunsmith that does a lot of accuracy work. He trued the action, pillar bedded it, tuned the trigger and recrowned. Now the same gun will shoot a 3/4" 5 shot group at 100 yards. Not sure how much the action truing helped the overall accuracy of this rifle but for the money to me it is worth it.

BigB

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
To get the most out a rifle it is always best to perform what are rather simple operations to "square" certain aspects of the action; I do these on every rifle I rebarrel: Square the front ring, clean boltface as needed, square bolt lugs, lap receiver lugs. These operations, along with proper chambering techniques makes for accurate rifles, and IMO, if you're going to use the rifle to take the life of a game animal you ought to make that rifle as accurate as feasible--IMO a lot more important for your shot to be true on a living animal than a target.

Very well said!!!

I had a factory stock Remington 700 ADL 7mm MAG in a cheap factory wood stock - all I did was epoxy bed the action and free float the factory barrel, then set to work working up a load that would shoot .250" groups - I have targets and witnesses...

I had a factory stock Remington 700 Varmint 243 with the cheapo plastic factory stock - actually did a trigger job on this one, and made SURE that the flexible plastic stock would NOT touch the barrel on a bi-pod or a rest. Worked up a load and it would shoot consistent .500" groups - I have targets and witnesses...

I am also in the middle of having a VZ24 Mauser completely machined, bored, and bolt-sleeved, just because I want to...

Go figure

I'm with John and Boss on this one. I just can't see investing in a new actions and premium barrel, and then skimping on the machine work.

quote:

Originally posted by Quick Karl:
I had a factory stock Remington 700 ADL 7mm MAG in a cheap factory wood stock - all I did was epoxy bed the action and free float the factory barrel, then set to work working up a load that would shoot .250" groups - I have targets and witnesses...

I had a factory stock Remington 700 Varmint 243 with the cheapo plastic factory stock - actually did a trigger job on this one, and made SURE that the flexible plastic stock would NOT touch the barrel on a bi-pod or a rest. Worked up a load and it would shoot consistent .500" groups - I have targets and witnesses...

I am also in the middle of having a VZ24 Mauser completely machined, bored, and bolt-sleeved, just because I want to...

Go figure

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Just wait --- it will get to be a sickness!!

I think you should have done to your action what ever will help remove the doubt from your mind. If you don't spend the money and have it squared and the rifle doesn't shoot you will always second guess yourself.

Most of my hunting rifles are made on either commercial or Military 98 actions. They headspace on the ring (at least the ones I barreled myself). First couple I went whole hog. Then got lazy. In my case I couldn't really see a difference in hunting accuracy. I've never had a stituation hunting big game where I felt a MOA rifle was a problem. Then again I've never had a rifle that would only shoot 2.5" groups either.

I do have trouble seeing how simple action work will take a 2.5" rifle to .75". Not saying it didn't happen I just feel something more than action work helped the problem. I see action work changing a rifle from .75 to .65".

Then again for years I fired 100s of loads to try and get a .7 to .6. Now days I'm happy to live with the .7 and spend my time on other things.

Everyone should do what makes them feel happy if your goal is to get the smallest group possible then signifcant action work probably needed.

For a production manufacturer it would be a waste of time to go through all that labor and fixturing for a $500 or even a $900 rifle.

Now anything from these production manufacturers labeled "Deluxe" "Super grade" "Custom shop" etc. Had damn well better be blueprinted, squared, and trued.

It's just like fishing. Do you want a Zebco 33 or do you want an International 30VS your choice

quote:

Do you want a Zebco 33

That little Zebco 33 has been around for over 50 years catching a lot of fish.

Yes it has
But you can't troll for marlin with one. At least not twice
And you can't get an international at wal mart

Who knows?

Each rifle is different.

If I was worried about throwing money around, I would shoot the rifle first and find out how good it is before spending the dough.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
Since I don't know what it's called I was trying to describe to him the use of various machines you see holding a rifle action when it is being blueprinted.
...and please tell me what such a machine is called! Jeff

I believe you are refering to the use of a mandrel to hold the action in a lathe for squaring up.

I had a .308 Howa that was 1.25" shooter with match grade Federal 168 Sierras. I had fired around 80 rounds through it, broke it in proper and shot it on differant days, differant weather, and so on. Best group was right at an inch, worst was 1.5, average was 1.25.

I took the barrel off, lapped lugs, trued the reviever and bolt, then turned a thread off the barrel, rechambered, and re-crowned. It's now a .5" gun every time.

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
I won a Rem Model 700 .270 win at an SCI raffle that at best would shoot a 1 3/4" 100 yard 3 shot group. Typical groups were 2 1/2" plus. It is a CDL stainless with a fluted barrel. I sent it out to a gunsmith that does a lot of accuracy work. He trued the action, pillar bedded it, tuned the trigger and recrowned. Now the same gun will shoot a 3/4" 5 shot group at 100 yards. Not sure how much the action truing helped the overall accuracy of this rifle but for the money to me it is worth it.
BigB

Back in the '60s & '70s a New York smith named Seeley Masker made his international rep by doing this very thing to factory rifles. It works, AAMOF it works like a charm, and IMO anyone who says it's a waste of time & money just doesn't know what he's talking about.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
For a production manufacturer it would be a waste of time to go through all that labor and fixturing for a $500 or even a $900 rifle.

Now anything from these production manufacturers labeled "Deluxe" "Super grade" "Custom shop" etc. Had damn well better be blueprinted, squared, and trued.

It's just like fishing. Do you want a Zebco 33 or do you want an International 30VS your choice

Funny you should mention the BP issue because it was not until Cerberus bought Remingtion that the Custom Shop there started Blueprinting actions. When they started doing this it was even mentioned in the catalogue. IMHO it should have been done from day one.

quote:

Real or imagined benefit?

For a hunting rifle and even for my varmint rifles.....strictly imagined.

For a BR rifle.....well I'll let them discuss that!

Seems like a lot of support for doing it on a M700. I've never built a rifle (other than restocking) on a M700 so I will bow to you M700 owners if you feel you need the work.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
For a production manufacturer it would be a waste of time to go through all that labor and fixturing for a $500 or even a $900 rifle.

Now anything from these production manufacturers labeled "Deluxe" "Super grade" "Custom shop" etc. Had damn well better be blueprinted, squared, and trued.

It's just like fishing. Do you want a Zebco 33 or do you want an International 30VS your choice

Funny you should mention the BP issue because it was not until Cerberus bought Remingtion that the Custom Shop there started Blueprinting actions. When they started doing this it was even mentioned in the catalogue. IMHO it should have been done from day one.

For a while there I believe Remington didn't even have a "Custom Shop" then Winchester just about went under closed their custom shop and then Remington opens one of their own. all within a few years of each other.

Some blue printing does not accomplish as much as everyone thinks especially on the M700 receiver.
The receivers warp during heat treat resulting a in a crooked bolt bore.
Before waste money on one I would make sure the it is not too badly warped.

The man said it was a waste of time for a HUNTING rifle. Today most people shoot at
paper and talk about the group.
Good luck!

Lets clear something up though.
Blueprinting as I have come to understand the term is the measurement and recording of ALL the notable dimensions of an action so that you know where things are good and not so good so that corrective action can be made.

The act of squaring and truing is not by definition "blueprinting" But I also understand that the term are used interchangeably

I say this because "Blueprinting" from the engine building industry is only a recording of dimensions.
You can take your small block to a shop and they will take it apart and measure and record every single part in the engine. then return or retain the engine and "Blueprint" so that you or the engine shop can install parts to correct worn areas or re-machine areas to restore proper dimensions.

A proper blueprinting job should tell you if the action is warped. I think a lot of smiths get the two operations commingled

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
I won a Rem Model 700 .270 win at an SCI raffle that at best would shoot a 1 3/4" 100 yard 3 shot group. Typical groups were 2 1/2" plus. It is a CDL stainless with a fluted barrel. I sent it out to a gunsmith that does a lot of accuracy work. He trued the action, pillar bedded it, tuned the trigger and recrowned. Now the same gun will shoot a 3/4" 5 shot group at 100 yards. Not sure how much the action truing helped the overall accuracy of this rifle but for the money to me it is worth it.
BigB

Back in the '60s & '70s a New York smith named Seeley Masker made his international rep by doing this very thing to factory rifles. It works, AAMOF it works like a charm, and IMO anyone who says it's a waste of time & money just doesn't know what he's talking about.
Regards, Joe

I still stand by that opinion, and Seeley's record speaks for itself.

And no, it's not 'blueprinting'. Down in my neck of the woods, the term 'blueprinting' as applied to race engines means not only recording the original data but also correcting any faults and remachining as needed to bring everything up to optimum dimensions. I use the term in exactly this sense when referring to my own single-shot action rebuilds, they're 'blueprinted' in the sense that everything is squared and trued and adjusted to optimum operational considerations and no further work needs to be performed except to fit the barrel and wood and finish.

Seeley's process as well as the very similar one described above is maybe more of a super-tune than a true blueprint but whatever the term, it has worked well for over 40 years now.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
Gents:

I was speaking with a man today who did a lot of repairs over the years for Winchester. Since I don't know what it's called I was trying to describe to him the use of various machines you see holding a rifle action when it is being blueprinted. See? Don't even know what one is called!

At any rate, he was of the opinion that for a hunting rifle the use of such machinery is tantamount to fraud being perpetuated upon the customer in an effort to inflate job prices. Yet, I know folks like Penrod and Echols remachine actions as an integral part of their work.

I'm curious to hear member opinions and please tell me what such a machine is called! Isn't part of the process which involves recutting threads at the front of the action to ensure the barrel, when installed, is concentric with the axis of the bore?

Jeff

Jeff,

I disagree that its always fraud! Believe that having an action blueprinted can improve accuracy when:

That's the problem and blue-printing the solution!

Think that the real issue here is IDing that to be the problem!! Think how many things have to be thought-thru and eliminated in an accuray trouble-shooting situation to get it down to the action!!!

You got to eliminate the shooter, the ammo or reload, the scope, the mounts, the crown, the bullet length - barrel twist combination, the stock/barrel bedding, etc. Sure the list goes on & on and others can add to it.



PS: Me, I usually get rid of it before figuing out that the action needs bulprinted.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
I won a Rem Model 700 .270 win at an SCI raffle that at best would shoot a 1 3/4" 100 yard 3 shot group. Typical groups were 2 1/2" plus. It is a CDL stainless with a fluted barrel. I sent it out to a gunsmith that does a lot of accuracy work. He trued the action, pillar bedded it, tuned the trigger and recrowned. Now the same gun will shoot a 3/4" 5 shot group at 100 yards. Not sure how much the action truing helped the overall accuracy of this rifle but for the money to me it is worth it.
BigB

Back in the '60s & '70s a New York smith named Seeley Masker made his international rep by doing this very thing to factory rifles. It works, AAMOF it works like a charm, and IMO anyone who says it's a waste of time & money just doesn't know what he's talking about.
Regards, Joe

I still stand by that opinion, and Seeley's record speaks for itself.

And no, it's not 'blueprinting'. Down in my neck of the woods, the term 'blueprinting' as applied to race engines means not only recording the original data but also correcting any faults and remachining as needed to bring everything up to optimum dimensions. I use the term in exactly this sense when referring to my own single-shot action rebuilds, they're 'blueprinted' in the sense that everything is squared and trued and adjusted to optimum operational considerations and no further work needs to be performed except to fit the barrel and wood and finish.

Seeley's process as well as the very similar one described above is maybe more of a super-tune than a true blueprint but whatever the term, it has worked well for over 40 years now.
Regards, Joe

It is apparent that many people are not cognizant of what they are talking about. This person Seeley you speak of clearly does not have as much knowledge about the subject as you think. If you understood that "Blue Printing" the action is only one of many things that need to be done to bring out the intrinsic accuracy of a given rifle then you need to do more due diligence.

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
I won a Rem Model 700 .270 win at an SCI raffle that at best would shoot a 1 3/4" 100 yard 3 shot group. Typical groups were 2 1/2" plus. It is a CDL stainless with a fluted barrel. I sent it out to a gunsmith that does a lot of accuracy work. He trued the action, pillar bedded it, tuned the trigger and recrowned. Now the same gun will shoot a 3/4" 5 shot group at 100 yards. Not sure how much the action truing helped the overall accuracy of this rifle but for the money to me it is worth it.

BigB

In my humble opinion, you got screwed. I don't know what you paid the guy to do it but you did not get a true "blueprinting" (trueing as I call it). If he used the original barrel, it is obvious that he did not true up the action threads. If he had, the original barrel would not have fit that action. There are a lot of shylocks out there, beware.

quote:

and then skimping on the machine work.

Absolutely- why go less than the distance?

quote:

Absolutely- why go less than the distance?

But, why pay for something "IF" it isn't needed?

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Seems like a lot of support for doing it on a M700. I've never built a rifle (other than restocking) on a M700 so I will bow to you M700 owners if you feel you need the work.

The last two varmint rifles I put together were on Rem 700 actions. I used them "as is" and installed #7 contour Douglas XX barrels.

One is a .243 superrockchucker and the last time out it killed five prairie dogs with six shots at 599 (I paced them off) yards....and yes...the dead P. Dogs were the ones I was shooting at

Would it have been six for six if I'd had that action "trued"?

quote:

The last two varmint rifles I put together were on Rem 700 actions.

Where those actions new, or had they been rebarreled in the past?

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
It is apparent that many people are not cognizant of what they are talking about. This person Seeley you speak of clearly does not have as much knowledge about the subject as you think. If you understood that "Blue Printing" the action is only one of many things that need to be done to bring out the intrinsic accuracy of a given rifle then you need to do more due diligence.

BigHat, you're the one who oughta do more due diligence. Seeley Masker (RIP) was a noted Benchrest smith and a long-time contributor to Precision Shooting magazine, so NOW who doesn't have as much knowledge as they think?

BTW you really oughta parse your last sentence, it doesn't compute. Your 10th-grade English teacher would be appalled - or, in your case, maybe not.....
Regards, Joe

Jim,

You may be correct, I will call and ask him. He does do a lot of work on benchrest rifles and competes in that game. From what I know he has a good reputation and is well know in benchrest circle.


Thanks

BigB

Some rifles dont need it. Many do.

Some hunters and less serious shooters may need it. Many dont.

Most target and benchresters do need it - and get it too.

Depends really.

But the benefit is generally real. Just how much do you need, how much do you want, how much do you want to pay.

When you are talking with someone like Echols they are pretty much only going to do their work one way because that is what they do.

When you talk to Mark Penrod he will tell you to go shoot your rifle first, work out its best load if you handload, and then send it to him. For a full house custom it only makes sense.

Adding to my above post a bit. While accuracy has always been important ala Col Whelen "Only accurate rifles are interesting..." I think the pursuit of the super accuarate sporter has been more in the last 20-25 years. Bedding improvements work. A good barrel and the right bullet works. I dont think that all the action machining you could conjure up will make a "poor" barrel shoot bug holes.

I know when I worked overseas in the 1980's and came home to hunt with my Weatherby it was not so big. Then later I started getting questions about its group. Heck just one shot should do it.

Then the guys with one rifle that went hunting once a year started looking for target groups. I see it now. At the office guys with just one rifle are looking for 600 yard groups after they shot one box. I try to tell them those 600 yard bench guns are just a bit different than their sporters. 17-30 lbs, no magazine, no safety, trigger in ounces, sighting shots, are all a lot different than getting your deer. Consistentcy of the first shot is "more better" for these rifles. But a good group does help your confidence to make that shot.

That said varmint rifles are different than that.

And after 40 years of this I am setting up one rifle for shooting with my best bud at 500 plus yards. Just for fun. Now let me see where I put Penrods number !

When it comes to factory guns, especially rems, savages, etc., I tend to send inaccurate guns on there way and move on to another if free floating the barrel doesn't help. I know that having work done on them will usually improve accuracy, but there is always another factory rifle out there that will shoot out of the box. I really find it difficult to find a rem or savage that won't shoot out of the box or with the barrel floated. Rem's seem to have stiffer (thicker) barrels than most. I think this helps as well.

quote:

This person Seeley you speak of clearly does not have as much knowledge about the subject as you think.

Lol out of the mouths of babes...
I am sure Seeley Masker built more prize winning benchrest rifles than Hossy has bought.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

This person Seeley you speak of clearly does not have as much knowledge about the subject as you think.

Lol out of the mouths of babes...
I am sure Seeley Masker built more prize winning benchrest rifles than Hossy has bought.

Yes I will admit that JD has me there! Did not read close enough before I posted.

JD is in fact the one who does not know what Blue Printing an action entails or even familiar with the term-(dementia must be hell for the ole blacksmith). Sorry --- no "offence" to the late gentlemen in question and yes he was a little before my time.

You seem to be quite a "hoss's ass", sport and your lack of years of shooting experience shows here, only too well.

You recently slagged Ralf Martini, now it is Seeley Masker, who WAS "the real deal" as we with actual rifle knowledge well know and you also attack Joe, because he "dared" to correct your characteristically ignorant remarks.

You impress me as being a windbag and so full of sh!t that your eyes are brown....get over yourself and learn to listen to better men than you are so that you "may" learn something.

Ray,

Just to be clear: I didn't say it was a fraudulent practice; I reported what someone said to be, as purely their own opinion, formed from years working as a Winchester repair tech. To repeat: this man felt remachining the entire action was a waster of a customer's money when a new barrel, trigger job and working the safety over were really all that was ever needed with the Winchester.

Yet, many high end smiths remachine the action, hence my original post.

Jeff