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1st criteria is affordability. Do not lecture me on the foolishness of not spending $$$ for added features that I will want/need in the future. I can't spend $$$ I don't have. My primary purpose for a lathe would be barrel muzzle facing/crowning, chambering. I also work on small displacemnent 4-stroke model aircraft engines, (.91 to 3.00 Cu In displacement singles & twins) making bushings, spacers etc. Turning barrel shanks & threads would be the most technical work I would ever likely attempt. A basic lathe that will allow me to chuck up a barrel or round stock will suffice. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | ||
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What is your budget? You first criteria is really functionality. If you spend money on a cheap piece of crap that does not work your money is wasted. | |||
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One suggestion: always, always look for the machine that comes with the most tooling. The cost of the tooling is usually ~ = to the cost of the machine itself, especially when trying to assemble tooling for a used machine. I'm not saying to pay more for the tooling and accessories, only you can determine if that's what you want to do. All I'm saying is that for instance if you're offered 2 machines for ~ the same price and one of them has lots of tooling such as chucks, steady-rests, collets, tool holders etc while the other one is actually a slightly more desirable machine but with little tooling or accessories, then IIWY I'd choose the one with the tooling. Ditto a longer bed or larger headstock hole. Always, always go for the longer bed and larger hole if you have a choice. Adequate affordable used lathes in your range would include but not be limited to 9x36 South Bend (THE classic), 10x36 Atlas/Sears (12x36 is probably more common) and others. DO NOT buy a multi-purpose machine like a Shopsmith. Regards and good luck, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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No flys on a Rockwell. | |||
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Most machine tool dealers have their inventory on ebay these days. You can find an older American made lathe like a LeBlond for near nothing. The only kicker now is that shipping cost is sky rocketing. As has been said, you can buy a lathe cheaper than you can buy the tooling. | |||
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Buying a machine isn't like a horse race, your money isn't gone if you make the wrong decision. If you buy something that's not right for you, then you will just have the extra effort of selling it and starting your search with a bit more buying experience. Bob Nisbet DRSS & 348 Lever Winchester Lover Temporarily Displaced Texan If there's no food on your plate when dinner is done, you didn't get enough to eat. | |||
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3 things hit my head. like JD says tooling, #2 chuck and runout, #3 wheys. A machine that can't hold tolerance is useless no matter what the cost | |||
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Don't forget to add the cost of a 3 phase converter or VFD if the lathe is equipped with a 3 phase motor. Many of these older 3 phase motors cannot be easily swapped because the NEMA frame no longer exists. DAMHIKT Use caution around machines (lathes, mills, etc) that have a history with school system. Hundred of kids used these machines with little regard to the condition or state of repair they left them in. | |||
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I agree that most machines which have been used in schools (particularly high schools) are not worth either the cost or trouble they will cause you. They almost all have been ridden very hard for long distances and put away wet. And they almost all got straw for sustenance rather than oats. I also agree that the tooling included is a very important consideration. On the nitpicky side, I very much prefer to work with #3 Morse Tapers for barreling than those with #2 Morse Tapers. I very much prefer lathes which come with a 1-1/2" or larger hole in the headstock, and a high quality 4-jaw chuck such as, for instance, Bison brand. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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That's exactly the kind of input I am looking for. I'm seeking an bit of a basic "lathe 101" education here. I have only operated a small lathe that was in a machine repair shop @ the plant where I used to work. In my "spare time" I made simple spacers, custom contoured jam nuts, stepped diameter plungers like those for 3-positiion Mauser safety & the like. I've watched muzzle loader barrels being (properly) breeched, cut, faced & crowned. I feel confident that I could accomplish tasks such as that W/the proper tool. I have a very high aptitude for learning & can usually pick thing up quickly W/a minimum of instruction. I'm looking for an "entry level machinme that I will not "outgrow" for a while. I assume that the 10 X 36 describes the size of the work that can be accomplished? 10" diameter by 36" length? How hard would it be turning a barrel contour W/a long sweeep radius? Would that require CNC? That would be the most complicated type of work that I would ever want to accomplish, but if that is beyond the scope of work that I could do W/a simple lathe I could still farm that out. Besides the tool holder, chuck, collets & steady rest, what other essential tooling would be essential for what I want to do? Although I am in a very rural comunnity near the Canadian border in Northern NY state, my daughter lives in Rochester. Renting a U-haul & picking up something in the Utica, Syracuse or Rochester area would be easy enough when visiting her. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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I got a small milling machine from Dave Sobel, in Closter, NJ. I don't know if Sobels still have a shop there or not. My lathe came from an estate sale in Connecticut, lots of machines in garages and basements there. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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Entry level depends a lot on the individual's skills and budget. Did you ever figure out what your budget can stand? A long hard search for a year or 2 might get one for $1000 to $1500 plus that much more for tooling. If you want to buy it in a few weeks the total costs might double that. You might look at the Grizzley line of lathes. They have most of the features that you might want. Then compare to the used lathes that you run across. You will often find the old lathes way over priced except in an area of the country with a tradition of hobby lathe owners. | |||
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I also suggest reading How To Run A Lathe (THE basic South Bend primer that has guided hundreds of thousands of machinists already) and ANYTHING by Guy Lautard. If you do much threading then you'll want to have or obtain a quick-change gearbox. Modern lathes all have them but some old, old machines don't and it's a PITA. A reversing switch is handy but not a requirement. What you're seeking is usually called a 'toolroom lathe' by the practitioners. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Grizzly has a package they call the "Gunsmith" lathe. MSRP in the $3K range but you might find a used one online. Mike Ryan - Gunsmith | |||
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Mike, it is a lightweight machine with a big D1-5 nose on the spindle. No way I would wrestle D1-5 tooling. | |||
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Butch The only tool that is hard to lift is a 3 jaw chuck. The easiest way to lift it is to chuck a piece of 3/4" pipe about 18" inches long to use as hand holds. If you can stand to use a chuck smaller than 10" it is even more friendly to lift. One old geezer that I worked with when I was a teen ager was so lazy that he never used a 3 jaw. He dialed in everything in a 4 jaw unless it was something small he needed to run in a collet. | |||
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I have been changing chucks since the mid 60s. D1-5 chucks are not easy to handle in any form, except a custom cathead. | |||
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If I hafta chuck a bar to use for 'handles' then IMO it's too heavy for convenience. If he was wanting a more-advanced or production-type machine then OK, but why burden oneself with an inconvenience since the entire exercise is primarily for a learning experience? Yes I use a wooden cross-platform when changing my Atlas 3-jaw, but that's just for 'way safety'. If I actually NEEDED the wood for such a heavy chuck then IMO the added inconvenience of handling such a monster would require some pretty hefty monetary gain to compensate!! Of course with me the point is moot since I can't afford a new lathe anyway (grin)! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I'm just looking for something that I will use occasionaly. No need for a "production" machine or something W/a lot of bells & whistles. I will seek out something W/a 36" bed & a through hole big enough for working on barrels. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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So have I butch. I never thought a cam lock chuck was anything but gravy after using threaded spindle chucks for years. | |||
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My 6913 Clausing has a LOO chuck and a 3 jaw is a pain for an old man to install. Feature holding a 3jaw LOO with your left hand and reaching across to start the spanner nut with your right hand. I have about 33% use of my left hand after my last back surgery. Can't do much with it. I try to keep a collet setup on one lathe and a 4 jaw on the other. | |||
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An engine lathe does not really have bells and whistles. It either does what you want or it doesn't. 1. you can get by with out a quick change gear box by why bother? 2. You need 5C collets for fine work 3. You need feed on the carriage and the cross slide. 4. You can probably get by without a taper attachment but it is a very nice addition. 5. The most valuable work holding chuck is the 4 jaw. | |||
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That is a nice set up. If I was that banged up I would probably do the same thing, mount a chuck and leave it. One of my habits from the old days was to never put a chuck down on the floor. I always stored them at waist height. The 10" 3 jaw had a piece of pipe ran through it. Place the chuck on a board across the ways so you can start the pipe in the spindle hole. Push the chuck up until it engages the spindle and tighten. Then remove the pipel None of this requires much strength other than getting the chuck onto the bed. | |||
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The piece of pipe is a matter of great convenience since you may be talking about a 10" chuck with no real hand holds. The pipe is really good to protect from accientally dropping a chuck on your foot. You will be amazed at how much easier chuck rasslin is with a piece of pipe chucked in it. Once on the bed- and on your cradle just run the pipe into the spindle bore and lift to line it up and tighten. | |||
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Except when you are installing a LOO. | |||
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An LOO is no problem for me to install but then I cheat with a piece of 2X4 in addition to the pipe. However it would be very difficult with only one hand. I spent 7 years and more than 10,000 hours running engine lathes and picked up a lot of tricks from other machinists. | |||
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__________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Taper attachments are far superior to offsetting the tail stock but most of the time you can live with out it - considering that most come on premium type lathes. BTW I am sure I can teach your Guy guy a few things about lathes and other turning machines. Apparently you have never used collets a significant amount. Tell me how you are going to chuck a 1/16" to 1/4" rod stock in the average crappy 3 jaw accurately? It isn't going to happen. | |||
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I'll bet you a thousand dollars (yes, $1000 green American currency dollars) that you wouldn't make a wart on Lautard's butt, and even HE doesn't claim to be a REAL toolmaker. The fellow has written a half-dozen books on machining, how many have you written? Or even read? He has also invented and is selling another half-dozen machining aids and other products to the HSM brotherhood, how many have you invented? His name is known to and admired by many thousands of machinists, how many know yours? Nuff said about Lautard, you need to read his books before you make a bigger fool of yourself. Yes the average 3-jaw is a joke, all of them need a tuneup and a little tweaking for best results. What's that you say, you don't know how to do that? Read Lautard, he'll tell you how. You keep mentioning 'engine' lathes. Have you ever used (or even seen) any other kind? Now I gotta confess I misunderstood your opinion on quick-change gearboxes. Been a long long time since I've seen a 10" or 12" lathe without one and it appeared that you didn't think they were desirable, sorry for my misunderstanding. To me the bells and whistles are things like reversing switches and gap-beds and more powerful motors, things that are actually built into the lathe rather than tooling or attachments. What's your definition? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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JD you would add alot more to this thread if you stopped attacking everyone. | |||
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Everyone? Since when is one man considered everyone? Perhaps SR4759 is your buddy but it seems to me that he's the ONLY one I've disagreed with on this thread so far. And obviously I'm not the only one, perhaps you need to go back and read the thread again. Especially the part where the original poster said that my response was just what he was seeking! Actually 4759 is the one who came out and attacked Butch and me first over the chuck weight issue. Reread the posts. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Joe: Of all the contributers on this thread, many of them helpful, yours have been the most helpful & relevant. As always you seem to be able to accept the wants/needs of the poster & give non judgemental suggestions. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Many thanks for the kind words! I had some mighty fine smithing mentors when I was a kid, they really made things easier and more enjoyable for me. No they weren't geniuses, just goodoleboys, but they didn't try to make me feel dumb when I asked a newbie question. I try to pay the favor forward whenever I can, and I always try to remember that everyone, EVERYONE, was a newbie at one time! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Don't buy a lathe without a spindle thru hole 1&3/8" or more and a short headstock. You should look for a South Bend Heavy 10 or 10L with at least a 4" bed. South Bend list their lathe length including total length of the ways. A beginer is better off with a belt drive. The belt will slip before one part of the lathe eats the other part. You should be in a good area to find used machines. Kenny Check the machines for sale on Practical Machinist also the South Bend forum @ PM | |||
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For me a gap bed is a negative on a lathe since it weakens the bed. I have never used one since there was always a machine large enough to do the job. A more powerful motor falls into the same category. My work does not require a lot of power just precision. I have ran very powerful lathes but the extra power is not needed for any gun part. A reversing switch is handy and does not cost much. A good spindle brake is needed for safety and for the impatient when turning heavy work. From the years spent on industrial engine lathes I do not remember to many things that were superflous. Lathes are pretty much like basic pickup trucks. | |||
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And, once again, you betray your basic ignorance. The term 'engine lathe' in the machine tool industry is and has always been used to differentiate the modern individual-electrical-engine-driven lathes from the earlier multiple-overhead-belt-driven lathes. Apparently you only overheard or read the term and assumed.... From the general tone of your replies I believe that, instead of 45 years' experience, you only have one year's experience repeated 45 times. You have a good day now, y'hear? __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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And please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you don't know how to turn & thread things and generally operate machine tools. I AM saying that it's quite obvious that you'd benefit from learning a lot more, and also that if you attack me then you've gotta expect a rebuttal. And yes, I agree that YOUR 3-jaw may well be a POS. But IF you had enough sense to read Lautard, then you'd know how to remove most of the inaccuracies (grin). A person who doesn't always keep trying to learn more is a person who will never know much. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Why would a 6 jaw chuck, regardless of back plate being any more difficult to handle? Threaded, D1-4 or D1-5. matter of ounces on all three. Wally Wally Waggoner Rifles | |||
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I do not remember a 6 jaw being mentioned in this old thread. The only thing that ever bothered me changing chucks was the screw back designs. If you can't handle the dead weight try chucking on a piece of 1" pipe leaving 6 inches on either side exposed for hand grips. Just remember handling anything that heavy can cut your toes off if there is a mistake. If you have a larger machine buy or build a hoist and save your spine.
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Wally,When you attain an age of 71yrs and have had 5 neck and back surgeries, you will understand. I use collets, a small 4 jaw, and a 3 Jaw on my 6913 Clausing. I have a 6 jaw Tru Adjust chuck that I no longer use because of the weight and the LOO attachment. A D1 chuck is easier to attach to the lathe, but a D1-5 is just too heavy. Now in the olden days as a youth I unloaded box car loads of sheetrock, 18 wheelers loaded with brick, and worked a jack hammer. You end up paying for it. No, we didn't use forklifts. I didn't learn that it made not a bit of difference in the big picture about how much I could do physically. I have a couple Grandsons that can help if I plan in advance. Not as hard for me as I do what I want to when I want to. | |||
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