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I are not an engraver but I can spell, I have slept at a Holiday Inn Express, and I do own several examples of some fine engraving by, among others, Grifnee, Fracassi, Gabelli,and Galeazzi. Here's the most expensive individual shotgun at H&H NYC at $155,000, engraved by H. Trihauf.  And here is the most expensive individual SxS listed in London.....  I'm certainly not saying that scroll, at it's highest levels, is not very demanding or that is it not very attractive, but it is repetitive and it is usually faster to do (which means it costs less) than the more detailed bulino or chiseled and/or inlayed scenes. Many engravers settle on what they like or do best and let others do what they do best. It is quite common to find guns with two very fine engravers doing work on the same plate, one doing the scroll or ornamental work and the other doing the scene(s). When I "quick" judge a gun's engraving, I look at the scroll, because it takes a very good hand to make good scroll, but there is VERY rarely scroll that I've looked at seriously that does not have mistakes or flaws in the execution. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Double rifles [URL=  ]127,300[/URL] [URL= [/URL]129,100 [URL= ]127,300[/URL] | |||
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Where are those Italian guns with the nude women on them? I assumed we would have seen them by now. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Look at that DR in the middle,the oak leaf and acorn engraving just behind the barrel chamber.Is that nice or what? | |||
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There is probably one in Gatogodo's gun safe.  | |||
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Shouldn`t that DR on top cost 127,300 plus 17,000? | |||
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Actually there is, it is a Perazzi done in Torcoli's fantasy style by Mara Galeazzi. I happen to like nude women, if you don't that is your problem. The work is not absolute top quality, but then, neither was the price. I'd own more of them, but I can't afford it.  That's one good thing about engraving, you can choose to buy what you like. I like women, I like nude women, I like dogs pointing birds, etc., I even like scroll. Shootaway, it is obvious that you don't even know the definition of scroll engraving. Geesh. I like oak leaf and acorn engraving, have a S&W that is covered in it but that combination in the DR that you are drooling over above is glaringly mis-matched. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I would like to see that naked weapon  | |||
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John: I just don't do pics. Unless I can link to someone who took pics of it before I owned it, usually the seller, I am pretty much out of the "show and tell" category. I bought it from Jaqua's several years back. All that said, I might be able to get my more camera literate son or daughter to take some pics. Manrico Torcoli invented the style, google him and you'll see some of the best examples and superb work. So far, I haven't found one of his pieces that I could afford. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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To repeat, time and skill level. I know this won't settle it for you but here is a snip from Luciano Bosis' site (who, by any standard, makes some of the finer shotguns in the world today): (bold emphasis mine)
xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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IMO,talent is the main thing.It can be shown through game scene or any other kind of engraving.If talent has a price tag then what you are saying is that it can only be expressed through picture-like or game scene engraving.This is where I disagree.If game scene engraving is quoted as more this could be because platinum or gold may be used.Of all the engravings I`ve seen and I admit that I have not seen them all, the nicests ones I like are the ones on Martin Hagn`s rifles and his rifles are the nicest ones i`ve ever seen by far. | |||
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The reason I "think" game scenes cost more is because they do cost more.....
Stop deluding yourself into believing that scroll is just as expensive as game scenes just because you like scroll better. What you like best has nothing to do with what engravers charge. The amount of detail is what drives the price up, because fine detail means more time. And as with anything, time is money. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I do not like scroll better.My decision to go with one or the other or both would depend on where it would be used.I stay behind what I said and have no idea why anyone would think it would cost more because I don`t.If you on the other hand do know then perhaps you can explain why.Saying that ``fine detail means more time`` means nothing from someone who is not a knowledgable engraver.Is there only detail in animal scenes? Jason,it seems that you go through posts not focusing on making a good argument to support your oppinion but searching for controversy instead. | |||
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You answered your own statement bellow; "I have no idea why anyone would think a game scene costs more than scroll alone" . | |||
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I'm not searching for controversy, I am simply shaking my head in disbelief as someone chooses to ignore the facts. How do you hold on to your incorrect belief the game scenes and scroll cost the same when someone has posted proof that game scenes cost more? I really don't mean to be rude, but have you ever wondered why so many people have accused you of being a troll? It is because you have a history of expressing opinions that are in opposition to all empirical data. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I stay behind what I say, in that you are more interested in conflict and controversy than learning or sharing.I guess that would make you a troll. | |||
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OK, I'm ready to learn. Please teach me about engraving. Do you have any evidence that shows that scroll and game scenes fall into the same price-range? Maybe you could talk to a gunbuilder or engraver to get some of this information. Please let us know what you find out. Thanks in advance.... Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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From http://www.eddelorge.com/id14.html :
In other words, if you opt to replace a portion of the scroll with a game scene it will cost you $400 more per scene. If you look on his site you will see that his game scenes are rather small and understated. Shootaway, I am not trying to flame you. It just seems that sometimes you ignore information and base your opinions on the way you think things are or should be. The good news it that no one can say that you follow the pack or that you don't stick to your guns. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Bad, half-assed game scenes from no-name, no-talent engravers can cost less than high quality scroll. Ceteris paribus game scenes cost more than scroll. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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You can practically REPEAT that with the right words changed into context about taxidermists. Some are just stuffers of dead animals. And that is pretty much what their work is. A dead stuffed animal! The true masters somehow put not only LIFE but somehow MOVEMENT into their product. | |||
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I've seen some AWFUL Purdey and Holland engraving, sorry chaps, but I really have! Here's some AWFUL Purdey work:  Superb craftsmanship, no doubt about that, but awful! Truly appalling! | |||
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Probably not to the person who ordered it. Ken Hunt does superb work, he gets paid to do what the customer wants. Personally I think it's a bit much, but if the owner wants to sell it for scrap value, I'd be thrilled to have it.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Perfect. Who did this work? ......civilize 'em with a Krag | |||
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Roger Kehr, I believe. He is my favorite engraver. All of his work that I have seen is unbelievable. There is a lot of great engraving out there, but there is just something about Roger's work that really moves me. He seems to have a talent for embelishment that really draws the eye to the detail. I have never seen engraving like his. I don't normally like engraving, but I want to own some of Roger's work. And I would never want game-scenes on any of my guns, but let me tell you, Roger's animals just seem to come alive. He posts here as Scrollcutter. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Mr. Brown got it right. That is Roger Kehr's work. Here's what it looks like on the rifle.  Roger is a great guy to work with.  Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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IMO,the Kehr engraving looks amateurish.Certainly not in the big league.I think the engraver should have looked at the wood which is not ``understated elegance`` and chose a design to suit it.IMO,the conservative scroll pattern he chose does not suit the wood.IMO,the engraver should look at the wood and the whole project and ask himself what does the rifle say and then match the engraving.This rifle does not say old english or something like that.Looking at the Lon Paul rifle,I think the engraver hit the nail on the head and the rifle scores a ten. | |||
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You don`t need an image or animal scene to make engraving look good the same way you don`t need a vocalist to make music sound good.Go tell Tchaikovsy his music doesn`t sound good because he doesn`t have a vocalist or that he should sell it for less. | |||
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I too, prefer a more subtle and traditional style. Yet, it just goes to show how different tastes can be. What you find appalling, someone else found attractive enough to commission and pay for. I have always found traditional American style engraving very interesting, though it would be out of place on a British or continental gun.       . | |||
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Roger's work does not smack of a pimp's Cadillac. To use "amateurish" and Roger Kehr" in the same sentence are the rantings of a fool. | |||
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Holy cow, did s-way really say that, or did someone hijack his account. I'd have to agree with you Duane. Think he's spent too much time looking at those........ acorns?
acorns? | |||
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Hard to know how to respond to Shootaway's post. My work, or anybodies for that matter is subject to the viewers eye. In that vein, everyone's critique is valid. But, please. Get a clue about what your talking about. Match the engraving to the wood...I mean really, are you serious? Roger Kehr Kehr Engraving Company (360)456-0831 | |||
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I should have said match the rifle to the engraver. | |||
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s-way You need to hurry and change your password before the hacker "removes all doubt" P.S. I think a squirrel ate your acorns. | |||
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Scrollcutter, you should consider it the ultimate compliment that the Oracle of the North thinks your work is amateurish. Wear it as a badge of honor. If the Oracle of the North thinks it, it is almost assured that anyone with some semblance of intelligence, taste, and experience will hold the exact opposite opinion. | |||
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I think he meant the oak leaves and acorns on the fences. . | |||
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I can't find any acorns. Squirrel must have got em. | |||
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Match the project with the engraving.Why in the world would anyone engrave oak leaves and acorns on a pistol or revolver? Does a handgun provoke warm thoughts about hunting,nature and harvesting? A north american Indian headress or a cowboy horse would look nice instead. | |||
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Acorns?  Oak leaves? Still looking for them... | |||
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Here is a picture of floorplate Marty Rabeno sent me a while back. [URL=  ]a[/URL] I talked to Marty yesterday and he said that my lion head floorplate should be ready for the Dallas Safari convention. | |||
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