I've decided to travel to Tadjikistan in 2012 to hunt Marco Polo and Mid Asian Ibex. If my economical situation allows it

I need to prepare for long range shooting. I don't know if this qualifies for the term long range, but it will be long range in my book.
I need to be prepared for shots 250-400 meters.
I've taken a few animals up to 250, but my experience stops at that point.

Where should I start?
I thought of getting a new rifle and scope, but have put this to side.
So I plan on using my good ol' .30-06 (Schultz & Larsen), topped with a S&B 3-12x42 scope.
Loaded with 165 grain bullets the trajectory isn't that bad. And the most important thing must be to know that trajectory and practice a lot.
I thought of getting a new scope with ballistic drop turret, which I recon will come in handy. Have been looking at the new Swarovski Z6i 2.5-15x44 BT. But maybe I can avoid it? Isn't it possible to add a BT or target knob on the scope I have now?

I'm not familier with this kind of equipment, but isn't it possible to zero at for example 300 meters and have the BT zeroed at 200, 350 and 400?

Hope people here can help me out in the preparation. One of the reasons why I plan on using the rifle and scope I already have is that this hunt is to expensive I really need to save in on every possible item

Have no concept of the hunt you describe, but the caliber, '06 and it's ballistics are well defined due to so much experience with it in sporting use as well as military. Your scope will need to have finger adjustable drums in order to dial in windage and elevation, but if your shots are at no more than 400yds?? you can use the old rule of 3moa per 100yds w/ 100yd zero. Actual come ups are 2moa for 200yds, 3moa for 300yds, and another 3moa should put you on target at 400yds. You can see that a hold of some 8"(1moa = 1"approx.) above should put you on target. The shooter, rifle, loads, atmosphere, etc. can create variance from this data, but a starting point. If your loads are on the upper level of velocity, it would require less "come ups" but only testing can determine that. Ballistic programs are an aid and are no substitute for actual firing. It would be good to have a practice area and if you do, zero the rifle at 100yds. and either dial in or hold some 15" high and that is the basic elevation for 600yds. Again, these are numbers developed years ago by military for military rounds and your bullet selection, load, will naturally vary somewhat from these numbers. Have similar data for wind deflection and if you want can send you those via PM. Sounds like your hunt would be a very desireable one, can only imagine the cost and effort it will take.

quote:

Originally posted by Anders:
I've decided to travel to Tadjikistan in 2012 to hunt Marco Polo and Mid Asian Ibex. If my economical situation allows it

I need to prepare for long range shooting. I don't know if this qualifies for the term long range, but it will be long range in my book.
I need to be prepared for shots 250-400 meters.
I've taken a few animals up to 250, but my experience stops at that point.

Where should I start?
I thought of getting a new rifle and scope, but have put this to side.
So I plan on using my good ol' .30-06 (Schultz & Larsen), topped with a S&B 3-12x42 scope.
Loaded with 165 grain bullets the trajectory isn't that bad. And the most important thing must be to know that trajectory and practice a lot.
I thought of getting a new scope with ballistic drop turret, which I recon will come in handy. Have been looking at the new Swarovski Z6i 2.5-15x44 BT. But maybe I can avoid it? Isn't it possible to add a BT or target knob on the scope I have now?

I'm not familier with this kind of equipment, but isn't it possible to zero at for example 300 meters and have the BT zeroed at 200, 350 and 400?

Hope people here can help me out in the preparation. One of the reasons why I plan on using the rifle and scope I already have is that this hunt is to expensive I really need to save in on every possible item

Hey Anders,

Your 30-06 will be fine for the hunt as you have described it set up with the scope and bullet you want to shoot. 400 meters will be easy for the rifle, it's YOU you will have to worry about if you have limited shooting experience/ability to that range.

On the hunt of a lifetime I would definitely make sure you have a good scope. For ranges out to 400 meters, one with a ballistic reticle is a good choice. You may not need target knobs if this is the longest distance you plan on shooting. There are some good scope choices with simple ballistic reticles that work great. They have simple dots as aimpoints on the vertical reticle. I have two Leupold VX2 scopes with the LRVD (long range varmint duplex) and one with the LRD (long range duplex). For the 30-06 I would suggest the 4-12 model with the LRD. The aimpoints will fit the drop of the load better as the models with the LRVD are to be used with flatter shooting rifles. The glass is great and you can add Stoney Point Target Knobs like I have to engage the coin slot on the elevation and windage adjustments.

The scope is around 425$ and I think is perfect for a hunting rig.

The biggest factor you need to take care of is getting proficient out to the longest range you expect to shoot. Practice and have fun.

Here is my hunting rifle with the Leupold VX2 that I describe. The turrets "click" and dial as accurately as Leupold's Highest $ scope.

quote:

Where should I start?

At the Range.

Start at 200 yards shooting groups. When you break MOA add 100 yards. Keep doing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

Where should I start?

At the Range.

Start at 200 yards shooting groups. When you break MOA add 100 yards. Keep doing it.

If you have a rifle that is not capable of sub MOA, you'll be peeing into the wind.

If you are shooting factory ammo with a factory rifle, you get what you get.

Anders, are you a handloader?

Anders you lucky stiff! That sounds like proper hunting big fella. You'll find the climbing easier than the rest of us too I should expect.

From our hunting together I can assure that your shooting is more than up to scratch, you just need to build some confidence at range.

Antelope Sniper's suggestion is so good I wish I had found this thread earlier. Set up a 8" circular target 200 yards and ghost a 2-3" ring in the middle so that you can see it close up but not from the firing point. Practice shooting off your jacket rolled up on a bag, not with a bipod for reasons I will go into later.

I say 2-3" because i think you'll be ok with a 1 1/2 minutes of an angle for those beasties to 400 yards.

Don't let the barrel get too hot and mislead you, do it like you were hunting so fire one or maximum two shots at a time, let the barrel cool completely, wander about, etc.

Once you are happy that you can more often as not keep your shots in 2-3" at 200 yards move to 300.

The wind will have much more of an effect at this range and so in my view one perfects trigger control, sight picture and breathing at 100-200 yards, adds wind reading at 300-400 and beyond there it's mostly wind reading no matter how good your technique.

You need an idea of your bullet drop and windage whatever load you're using, I know Ger was using the factory 180gr TBBC, were you using the same or can you load up your own?

Practice off the jacket because that it almost invariably how you will be shooting and bear in mind you could be shooting up or down hill, tricky with a bipod in that sort of terrain.

Here's some information on shooting up and down hill, if you don't have anywhere to practice this, it could catch you out as no matter whether you are shooting up or down the bullet will still strike high due less time for gravity to act on it and make it fall. http://www.firearmssite.com/shoot_uphill.htmhttp://www.millettsights.com/d...phillAndDownhill.pdf

I would recommend a 165 grain Speer BTSP or Nosler Ballistic tip as you're not worried about meat damage and those are pretty much the slipperiest decent hunting bullets out there. IME the Speer is more frangible than the BT, strangely enough.


I would say keep your scope, it's bloody good and from what I hear there usually isn't enough time to dial in on these sort of things.

You have two options as I see it, zero for point blank range and hold over at long distances or zero at longer range and hold under for shorter distances.

Some guys say it's easier to hold 8 inches low at 100 yards than 18 inches high at 300, I don't know as I've always zeroed for PBR and held over. My longest shot so far was at a 400 yard black wildebeest, the load was an unaerodynamic lump of a 180 grain hornady interlock at a measly 2550 from my 06. The drop was about 24" inches from my particular zero and with a little knowledge of the beast in question I knew that meant hold just above his back, it light just peeking through as my crosswire is about 3/4" thick at 100 yards and therefore about 3" at 400 yards. Got him right in the ticker, I'm pleased to say.

The bottom line is that whatever equipment and load you have now you can make it work, it's a matter of familiarity and confidence mate.

Get to know how far the distance between the thick and thin bit's of your crosshairs are, shoot the load you are going to be hunting with at the distances you think you'll be hunting at in all conditions if possible and you'll know the limits of your equipment.

Besides, getting 50 yards closer won't be a problem for a stalker of your caliber buddy.

PM sent MDF!

Very good input, guys! Thanks!

But unfortunatly I need to ask more questions

What is MOA? I've never really understood the concept. Is this only related to group size?
Is one MOA at 100 yards 1 inch? Is it 2 inch at 200 yards?

My rifle shoots quite well. I'm a handloader yes, and one of mye favourite loads the last couple of years are less than an inch at 100 meters. From my 24 inch barrell this bullet leaves the muzzle at appr. 2850 fs. I might be able to work up a bit, but the trajectory won't be that much better I guess. It's only centimeters in difference. More important will be to know the trajectory and range.

My plan nontheless is to buy different kinds of 165 grain bullets with high BC. Then try different loads with them at different ranges to see what groups best. Like you say, Ghubert, meat damage is of no importance.
But what I really want is a 165 grain bullet that groups well, have a high BC, ok trajectory and retain the weight "quite" well.

Over to the scope issue.
I think I will keep my scope. I will check out the possibilites of adding a target knob. I discussed last evening with a friend who hunted the same area last year. He said he had pretty good time with dialing in on the Marco Polo, but more pressure on when it came to the ibex. He also said that there was almost no wind there. The weather is supposed to be quite stable there during the winter, but one never knows

I might need to be able to learn how to dial in the target knob, but also know the trajectory well enough, so I can hold over or under if a situation requires it?

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Besides, getting 50 yards closer won't be a problem for a stalker of your caliber buddy.

It's actually the other way around, mate! I'm so tall the animals will see me entering the country...
Are you comming along?

quote:

Originally posted by Anders:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Besides, getting 50 yards closer won't be a problem for a stalker of your caliber buddy.

It's actually the other way around, mate! I'm so tall the animals will see me entering the country...
Are you comming along?

Ah good, 'tis the normally-heighted one advantage fair!

I don't think I can come mate,2012 us going to busy and I've got other commitments. One day, also when I'm considerably fitter, we'll go together. Iran perhaps?


A MOA, or Minute Of an Angle is a convenient wat expressing group sizes at varying ranges. It is the arc subtended by 1/60th of a degree and as you know that happens to be almost exactly an inch at 100, 2 at 200, 3 at 300 and so on.basically one divides the distance in yards by 100 to arrive at the MOA value.

So when AS says practice by shooting MOA at 200,300,400 he is saying 2, 3, and 4" inches respectively.


You can then note that if your scope has quarter inch at 100 yards clicks, each click will move you a quarter of a MOA, ie 1/4" at 100 yards, 1" at 400 yards, 2" at 800 etc. I suspect your scope may be 1cm/100M however, so my advice is forget about MOA in that case and work in centimetres but following the rule that the group be proportional to the distance as above.

So 3cm at 100m, 6cm at 200m, 9cm at 300m, etc.

Your distance will then be limited by the killzone size of the animal and at what distance you can put a bullet in it 9 times out ten.

I would say use the Ballistic tip or the accubond if you can get them, i've only used the former but hear good things about the latter for long range.I'm sure more experienced guys will chime in on this.

Your rifle sounds like a good 'un, she'll certainly do the job and 2850 with 165 grain bullets is very good.

PM your email addy and I'll send you a spreadsheet with ballistic info on it for you to play.

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx

Fill in the fields with your bullet and cartridge info, and test it.

You should be able to find a reticle that matches your trajectory somewhere along the path, either dots, or the bottom post on your duplex, etc.

Fine tune the chart to match your actual ballistics, print it off, and tape the pertinant info to your stock.

With one of my rifles, sighted 2" high at 100yrds, is x-on at 220yrds, and on again at the bottom post of my duplex reticle (3moa) at 350yrds. 400yrd shot would be a 6" holdover with the bottom post. It works for me with a simple duplex reticle.

Either way, you'll have to practice a lot and find a system for precise shooting, and account for drop and windage.

Looks like you have gotten a lot of good advice. i would also think that on this hunt you may be hunting at elevations of over 10000 ft. you may want to study up on what altitude also does to your shooting.

Shooting and conditioning!!!

Some of the area I hunt is 11-12k. The altitude can sure knock the wind out of you fast.

Purchase the book.. Understanding fire arms ballistics by robert rinker. this will get you up to speed for what you need to know. after you understand the concepts then you can tune your equipment to meet your goals. Also do not trust manufactures ballistic coefficents to create charts. You need to go and shoot long ranges to learn where your bullet will hit and then factor in altitude corrections. I would also take an extra scope rings and bases since these break. dry lube all parts if it will be cold so your fireing pin will not freeze in place

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
One day, also when I'm considerably fitter, we'll go together. Iran perhaps?

So 3cm at 100m, 6cm at 200m, 9cm at 300m, etc.

I would really like to hunt Iran, Amir! Let's do that sometime in the future

I think I'm already up to the task of putting bullets into 3 and 6 cm groups at 100 and 200 meters respectivly. 9 cm at 300 and 12 at 400 is more troublesome at the moment, but I will do everything needed to get it done

Thanks again for great advice, mate!

Like you guys say, alltitude corrections might be needed. And the alltitude sure will mess up my physical situation. Going from 0 to 12-15000 feet above sea level sure isn't a good thing.

Great tip on the book! Will look into it

Forget MOA and inches and all the other stuff. Get a scope which have 1cm at 100 meters, then one click is 2 cm at 200, 3 cm at 300 5.3 cm at 530, 3,4 cm at 340 and so on. Very easy to know how much to move your reticle at any given distance.
Im located near Trondheim, if you are around there, Ill meet you at the range and have a go at some extended ranges, we have targets out to 600 meters!

STIG