It would be interesting to see if there were any shift in the trend to small cases, if the yardages were random, like the matches at Raton, and rangefinders were not allowed.

Add 500 FPS to a 105 HPBT and you shave 14" at 500 yards, but you still have to read the wind.

Rich, seems like the LR competitors keep moving down in caliber. Now 6mm has surpassed the revered 6.5mm offerings.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
...if the yardages were random, like the matches at Raton...

I don't follow. Are you talking about small caliber, or small cases? Also, at raton the rages are known. Are you talking about having to guess ranges on the fly? There's a match called the steel safari where you have to find, range, and hit a series of targets. I think range finders are allowed though. Is this what you're talking about, but without range finders?

The trend towards smaller calibers in "tactical" matches is mostly because there are no spotters. You have to see your hits/misses to make adjustments because no one will tell you where it went. So, less recoil is the main reason for the smaller calibers. You could put a big case behind a small caliber, but then you'd hit the speed limit imposed by most of these matches. Much over 3000fps and the steel targets start to suffer.

Also, it depends on what you mean by LR. Most of these matches are sub-500 yards for most shots. You don't need a 338 to hit 2MOA targets at this range.

jpl pretty much hit it. The most common brass I see on the ground at the matches I RO (PRS and DMM) is 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47L, and .260 Rem. There are still guys who shoot .308 Win and .300 Win Mag plus you will see an occasional 6.5-.284 Win and .243 Win. I shoot .308 Win or .300Win Mag if I am shooting work guns in a match that requires it but if it is my time and money I shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Rich, seems like the LR competitors keep moving down in caliber.

It depends on what game you're talking about. 1000 yard F-class guys are using big 30 and 7mm rounds. They get spotters placed on their targets though. I'm sure they'd go bigger than 30 if the rules allowed it. The true long range match at raton (2200yards) is mostly 338 guys. But again, I think that is set in the rules:

http://sportingriflematch.com/magnum.php

I am going to have a 6XC built but IMO, at 700 yards and beyond, it is really tough to beat a .338 300 gr bullet in the wind.

I was out shooting at 800, 744, and 715 yesterday with my Edge and .220 Swift (80 gr AMAX). My goal is a first round hit. The wind was gusting from 200 to 260 degrees. I evaluated all of these different wind speed/angle combos, and at 800 yards, the biggest error with the Edge I got when I used the mean condition was about 1/2 minute (from either extreme). My .220 Swift had over 1 MOA error for the same conditions. I shot my Edge first and hit four inches right (not enough wind allowance). I shot my .220 with 4 MOA and was perfect. I did blow a shot with my .220 at 744; not sure if I got caught with a wind gust or what, but hit 3 MOA right, which even for that cartridge is a huge miss - I can't remember the last time I missed by that much (I was holding 3 MOA into the wind). Did okay at 715 with my Swift with wind holds anywhere from 2 to 3 MOA, but it would have been a piece of cake of my Edge.

Somehow the big .338s always seem to have less "what in the heck happened there?" shots than smaller things that look pretty good on paper.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
Somehow the big .338s always seem to have less "what in the heck happened there?" shots than smaller things that look pretty good on paper.

Well said Dogleg. I can't explain it, but the .338 300 gr bullet does a lot better than its paper ballistics (which are wonderful). I think the reason may be exactly what I said above: when you evaluate the wind conditions, the difference between "best" and "worst" is about half of most other cartridges.

It's mainly about drift and if you look at the difference between 10 and 15 mph vs just knowing what the value is for just 10 mph things change. If we know its exactly a 10 mph wind, my bullet drifts 13" at 500 yours 22", we'll both hit. Now we guess that its somewhere between 10 and 15, maybe some funky angle, and BC will shave the margin for error.

But, all thats on paper.

quote:

Originally posted by 16Bore:


But, all thats on paper.

Perhaps, but it is also real life. Even if you can measure the wind exactly, given a long enough shot, it can change while the bullet is flight.

The other advantage of high BC is reduced influence from changing environmental conditions.

Nobody begs for lower BC's for sure. If a .700 BC .277 bullet popped on the market that would stabilize in a 1:10 270 Win, everybody and his brother would have one.

quote:

Originally posted by 16Bore:
Nobody begs for lower BC's for sure.

True, but inexperienced shooters often trade it for higher velocity.

I've monkied with enough numbers to know that it takes quite a bit more velocity to get the drift down. And BC "gains" diminish as it increases.

99 problems and 4-5" of drift usually aint one.

quote:

Originally posted by 16Bore:
And BC "gains" diminish as it increases.

That is true, but is also why high BC bullets are affected far less than lower BC bullets - as you point out, a graph of "gain" vs BC is an inverted parabola. Since high BC bullets are on the "flat" part of the curve, the impact of changing temperatures is far less - something I observed shooting in MN in the summer vs winter.