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One interesting thing about shooting long range off of sticks is...there is no magic. Beyond a few basic points of: 1) not resting the barrel on the sticks 2) to the extent possible, consistently use the same type of grip on the sticks and the forend 3) Learning to use a rear support, under the butt stock It really is all about practice, practice, practice and learning what works for you; i.e., what type of grip given the sticks, the forend, and the size of your hand. For the vast majority of hunters 350 yards is long shot from a prone position using normal optics. IMHO, standing off of regular sticks 200-250 pushes the envelope for most shooters. With respect to Africa, (ethics aside for the moment) when you consider trophy fees $500-$1500 or more; how many of us are willing to take the following $1000 bet: See that paper plate over there - you have 15 seconds to find it in your scope get settle, it's about 250 yards. Hit it. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I think the shooting off sticks with some type of rest restong the strong arm even if it is a friend under the strong arm elbow as a big deal/essential if shooting long range. I took a couple of shots at 150 yards last weekend standing up off my BOG Pod/sticks with my scope on 15 power just to see. The wobble is considerably even when “steady”. That much scope at that range will show will show you the wobble standing up on sticks give you. My take away if having to shoot much beyond 100 yard get to the ground at least setting use a pack or something to support. | |||
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Well I don't fancy lying down much in thornbush country so that's why the sitting position is best.  | |||
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Learn how to use a shooting sling from the sitting position and you should be able to connect out to 400 yards. I shot a five shot group with one of my .223s at 200 yards 2 weeks ago that was an inch. Yes, it was lucky, but I have shot many small groups (5/8 of an inch 3 shot group at 200) with a sling. Key is to use a proper shooting sling (almost no one uses one these days) and dry fire every day. You will be amazed how fast it is to assume a shooting position and how steady it is; much steadier than standing off the sticks. | |||
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I think what folks are trying to solve for is when the vegetation or terrain prevents the sitting position. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Understand Mike. If that is the case you have to learn what works for you. My biggest problem was the lateral sway you get standing, so using my off hand to brace one of the legs eliminated that and let me make shots out to 400. But then I can shoot offhand and hit a kudu sized animal at 300 plus yards. | |||
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Do you mean offhand with no sticks? If so, that is pretty awesome! I practice offhand normally once a week at 75 and 100 yards. Can keep them on a 6 inch target at 75, but sometimes miss at 100; wouldn't dream of shooting a kudu at 300 offhand. Sticks? No problem, but without sticks, I better get to sit. | |||
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I never think of it as hitting a "kudu/elk/deer" size target. I think of it as can I hit a 10 inch target 9 out of 10 times. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I shot 10 shots offhand (no sticks) yesterday at 100 yards. Just measured the group: 11 1/4 inches. One shot was 7 inches low; the other 9 were in 8.5 inches, centered on the bull and all within 4" of my point of aim. I used to do better when I shot competitively, but I was happy with that. But in no way is that good enough to poke a kudu at 300... Mike, I use the same standard: 9 of 10, no matter what range or position I am shooting. | |||
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I was at DSC last week and talked to gunmaker JJ Perodeau. He demonstrated "Stable Sticks" that he imports from France. They come in aluminum/fiberglass and the more expensive carbon fiber model. They carry like a pair of sticks that open out sort of like a W. These sticks are phenomenally stable, just worlds more stable than the typical african tri-pod sticks that we are all used to. I know that they would have improved my shooting on previous African Safaris tremendously. I have NO affiliation with JJ, but I do believe that if you try these sticks, you will buy them. They run from $139 from Alum/fiberglass to $309 for carbon fiber. Both Frank Beller and I were really impressed! www.jjperodeau.com DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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10generation: I have been to FTW. Initially I balked at the cost. Outside of my PH best money I have ever spent. PM me if you want more details. "Never, ever, book a hunt with Jeri Booth or Detail Company Adventures" | |||
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I have been to the SAAM school at FTW several times, and have taken dozens of friends and customers there ( yes dozens). You can't get a better value for your money than SAAM classes. They will teach you to shoot to the limit of your self and your rifles ability, and it varies for everyone. Sitting, off sticks, I am pretty confident out to 600 yards, on a 1-2 MOA target, about 400 yards is my limit off sticks standing. I would normally not shoot game at those distances, but it is nice to know you can when you need to. I recently shot an eland at about 350 yards walking, with a 375, all three shots were within a palms breadth, shooting from an improvised position, no sticks, bipod or bag. The PH just shook his head, and later came over for a few days off season for SAAM himself. He had a blast ringing steel targets with a 6.5 Creedmoor WAY out there, was interesting to watch someone learn a skill that they did not know they had. Master of Boats, Slayer of Beasts, Charmer of the fair sex, ...... and sometimes changer of the diaper..... | |||
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