Sorry for the long post (and venting/whining), but there is an honest question at the bottom. Skip to the bottom if you’d like:

In this modern world of wannabe snipers and too many people wanting to brag about how far they shot their animal, I wonder what percentage of first shot vital hits should qualify someone for a certain distance?

Here’s what fired me up lately to make me ask: Recently I guided a gentleman who had the trick rifle, the trick scope, had the full story about being a “sniper in the military” for many years (was there anyone who WASN’T as sniper in the military???) and was convinced that as long as the sun was up on both he and the game animal at the same time… that it was plenty close enough for a shot. He claimed he had rung a few steel gongs at distance from a benchrest and talked a GREAT game. Years ago I would have completely fallen for his lines, but that was a few thousand clients and many miles of crawling through brush looking for wounded animals ago… so I’m a bit more skeptical now. (The best shots I've ever guided didn't brag about their shooting... period.)

First thing in the morning on his hunt, just an hour or two after first meeting this gentleman and his son, we spotted a buck I knew had been living somewhere around a particular spring. According to Leica the buck was right at 400 yards, the wind wasn’t bad and while we were looking into the sun a bit and the buck was just barely on our side of the property line, he was at least holding still and broadside with a couple does. Instantly the hunter said, “I can make that shot!!!!”. I can’t begin to tell you how many shots I’ve seen messed-up past two hundred yards… so I’m not comfortable letting clients I don’t know shoot past about 200 if there is any way to get closer.

In this case there wasn’t a good way to get closer since the buck was across a big open canyon, very near the property line and was already watching us. I was very hesitant to let the client try that shot, but he was so sure it was a “chip shot” that I figured we might see if the buck would hang around while we got set up.

In order to get a better handle on this hunter’s skill level as we were setting up I asked him how far his load dropped at that far. He immediately said “About 8 inches“. He’s shooting factory Barnes ammo in .300 Win. Mag. and earlier had mentioned the gun was an inch or so high at 100 yards… so obviously he didn’t know the ballistics of his own load. And he didn’t know his clicks so that means, if he had a plan... I guess it was to hold 8” high. Then he really confirmed my concerns when as I was working to get something set up for him to rest off of prone he started wobbling around to try an off-hand standing shot….

So I stopped him and made him take the front and rear rest I had set up. Thankfully the buck got nervous and hopped the fence onto the neighbors before the hunter could find him in the scope… so I was relieved because I know the best case scenario was that he would likely break a front leg.

The rest of the morning that hunter insisted that shot would be “easy” for him with his magic gun and magic scope. I was polite, probably too polite, but he could tell I was skeptical so he wouldn’t leave it alone. I was really tempted to take him to the steel plate I had on the other side of the ranch at a measured 400 yards and let him embarrass himself in front of his son. But I figured that wasn’t nice so I left it alone – I sure hope my being polite doesn’t cause a few animals to get wounded in the future.

Late that morning we stumbled into a really nice buck calmly hanging out under a tree at 50 or 60 yards. He proceeded to take 5 shots - every round he had on him - including a couple shots while seated resting on shooting sticks that I set up for him. In those 5 shots at 60 yards he grazed the neck, grazed the top of the back and broke two legs. I had to finish it off for him. After that rodeo… I was so glad he didn’t start winging shots across that canyon at 400 yards.

So keeping in mind that in 28+ years of guiding I’ve seen a whole lot of adventures like the one described above - here’s my question: What percentage of your FIRST SHOTS (meaning honest initial attempts, not walking the shots in with a half dozen shells, from a field type rest like in a hunting situation) should a person be able to be keep in the vitals of the game they are hunting (NOT a 4 FOOT by 4 FOOT steel plate) to consider yourself competent at a given range?

I do a bit of shooting instruction and usually people can tell when they’re shooting further than they should ethically attempt on a game animal. But I’m starting to practice for a hunt were a longer shot might be necessary and I want to make sure I hold myself to a solid ethical standard. While I’m not discussing any specific distances - I have a rough idea of where I’m comfortable, but I’m going to practice out a bit farther and I want to know what percentage of vital hits you folks feel is ethical to attempt in similar hunting conditions (rifle rest, wind, time frame, mirage, light, etc.) on a game animal? When a game animal is on the line I don’t want to depend on luck. Obviously 100% vital hits in practice would be ideal, but this is real life. For your practice is it 95%, 90%, 80% or ????

Thanks,
Kyler

I would say 80% minimum and might be convinced of 85% under the field conditions.

So if I can hit and 8 inch plate 8 out of 10 times at 300 yards over my pack and a jacket stuffed under my stock for a rear rest, I should be allowed to take the 300 yard shot.

If I can hit a 200 yd plate 8/10 of of crossed sticks sitting then I should be allowed to take that 200 yard shot.

I think wind has to be calculated in and as soon as wind starts to be above 15mph, the distances have to be reduced.

I would venture to say 9/10 might even be better. Last thing I personally want is the wound a deer.

Depending on the gun, I'm comfortable with a 300-600 yard range, maybe a bit further with my 338.

As an aside, ask him what his MOS (Military Occupation Status) was and his CIB (Combat Infantrymans Badge). There is a 100% certainty that if he does not say 11B or 11Fxx or know what a CIB is and where he got it is, he is a wannabe.

Those two things put you in a very small, close knit fraternity in the Army.

I got my honorable discharge as an 11F4P. 11 is infantry, F stands for Ranger, 4 signifies that I made Sgt, and the P is paratrooper.

In the future, I would suggest you take any hunter you do not know to that range you have and have them show you their skills.

I am competent because I've spent nearly forty years shooting Rockchucks here.

Rich

11F4P, hmmm, that must be a while back- my pre-commissioning MOS was 11B3VJ- 11= Inf, V= Abn Ranger, 3= SSG/E6, and J meant, well, in trouble! Then I became a Cbt Eng - 21A etc.

From what I see, all of the codes have changed quite a bit.

11 series was B- straight leg, C-Mortar, M- Bradley FV. If I recall, there was another character for TOW operator, but I maybe mistaken. Early 80's through mid 90's for the enlisted stuff.

Sua Sponte.

95%+ if you are talking from the bench.

From field positions, assuming you are talking a steel target that is smaller than the whole vital area (such as a 12" plate or smaller) 80%

You can tell a lot about a guy just watching him set up for the make sure of zero shot. As an example, look at Saeed's videos at the start of a safari. He gets the rest set to where he wants it, dry fires a time or two, then puts the shot in, and knows where it was aimed.

personally, I think a lot of so called expert long range shooters fib a fair amount on their first shot cold bore success rate at distance. Only know one .mil sniper, and he never talks about his skill due to being a sniper... He just makes pretty much any shot you put in front of him, or tells you it's a damn fool shot attempt. Only reason I know he was a sniper was because his brother told me that he was... If a guy is telling you he can shoot because of his military experience, he probably didn't have much military experience, and probably can't shoot either.

In 50 years of hunting, every deer I have shot has been 1 shot, one kill from 20 yards to 400 ( which is my personal limit).
The average range would be 200 yards.
I guess growing up and hunting in a shotgun only place (before rifled barrels) & starting out with a single shot H&R 12ga and hunting woodchucks helped me. Also I know my rifle

Hogs are a different story.

It depends...

And with that I'll tell you about one deer I killed...with three shots.

We pulled into a clearcut and spotted a small herd of deer with one nice buck at about 150 yards. I got out of the truck and got into position with a decent rest. I held on the buck and in the instant before my shot he whirled and ran off a few yards. So a clean miss. He went behind a tree and I could see his nose and antlers sticking out from the left side of the tree and the rest of his body from just behind his front leg on the right side of the tree. I needed to hold as close as possible to the right side of the tree to hit him in his vitals. My second shot hit the tree about an inch from the right edge and the buck didn't move. I adjusted my aim and my third shot went home through his lungs. He went about 50 feet and expired.

So three shots which is the most I've ever took to kill an animal.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
As an aside, ask him what his MOS (Military Occupation Status) was and his CIB (Combat Infantrymans Badge). There is a 100% certainty that if he does not say 11B or 11Fxx or know what a CIB is and where he got it is, he is a wannabe.

Those two things put you in a very small, close knit fraternity in the Army.

I got my honorable discharge as an 11F4P. 11 is infantry, F stands for Ranger, 4 signifies that I made Sgt, and the P is paratrooper.

In the future, I would suggest you take any hunter you do not know to that range you have and have them show you their skills.

I am competent because I've spent nearly forty years shooting Rockchucks here.

Rich

Currently F is not the SQI for Ranger it is an ASI(F7) for Pathfinder (V SQI for Ranger if you were airborne), 4 is not a SGT (2 is) it's a SFC, but at least P does mean Airborne. Being a Sniper you get an ASI of B4. An EIB has nothing at all to do with Sniper.

If you are a Viet Nam era guy I'm pretty sure 11F was an Ifantry Itel/Ops which could have put you in a couple of places since the Army didn't have the number of CMF it has now.

As for long range shooting of animals other than people, I hold myself to a 90% certainty. I very rarely shoot from the bench and haven't for probably the last 10 years. I use it for some specific testing but spend most of my time prone or shooting alts since that is how most of my work, competition shooting, and hunting is done. If a prone shot presents itself I am confident to 600yds under easy conditions and 400yds under more difficult conditions. From an alt I want to keep it under 400yds all the time unless I'm shooting from a tripod.

That said, I have never killed a game animal over 250yds because it has not been necessary. There has always been a way to close the distance. I also am not dependent upon hunting to put food on the table so I can ALWAYS pass on a shot since horns/antlers are not worth risking a bad shot.

I need to know I am able to place all of my shots in a 6" circle under field conditions at the maximum range at which I will fire at a deer or elk. I pass up a lot of shots because the conditions (usually wind) are not right. Since starting this type of hunting in 1996 I have had 98 percent one shot kills.

OP,
Your best option would be to take clients to an established range.....& tell them .....show me.

98% are wannabee/internet Hi Masters.

To include active duty "mall ninja's" that qualified "expert"prior to deployment to the sand box.

MOS's
Unless the GI is stationed & shooting on their appropriate service team @ Benning or Quantico they are internet "snipers"

Dan;

Of course many ( not a lot per capita of course) of military are competitive shooters. Usually one does not stay in the AMU or USMC team for life....

I know of many across the course military types who never shot on a service team- yet still are national class shooters.

Too bad the military generally puts marksmanship in a class a bit lower than POSH skills....

Funny that only gwahir and 7mm freak mention the two things that jumped into my mind when I read this thread title: wind and position.

Wind totally drives my ability to park a bullet where I want it, with position a distant second. If I shoot sitting with a Harris type bipod and sling and can get into my "wrapped" sitting position, I am confident out to 600. Prone, I think I would be comfortable out to 800 if the wind hold was 2 MOA or less; more than that and the odds of missing go up. When it gets past 4, my hit rate drops at 800. I shot today at 800 and 1290 prone, but there was no wind. Both would have killed a deer.

That said, as 7mm Freak says, you don't have to shoot that long. I have only three shots over 400, and of those, one over 600 and none over 640 out of over 200 kills. The two 400 shots, 455 and 408, both had about 2 MOA wind holds. The 455 was pre-rangfinder days, and that estimate is based on using an old Ranging 1000 RF that I modified as well as a custom stadia reticle from Premier Reticles; I took the average of both readings to come up with my 455 estimate.

Here is the real test of your ability to answer this question: go to Alaska and hunt with a guide, or hunt in Africa. If you draw blood in either area, your tag/quota is punched. Now how confident are you?

quote:

Originally posted by HPMaster:
Dan;

Of course many ( not a lot per capita of course) of military are competitive shooters. Usually one does not stay in the AMU or USMC team for life....

I know of many across the course military types who never shot on a service team- yet still are national class shooters.

Too bad the military generally puts marksmanship in a class a bit lower than POSH skills....

This was not the case when Schwartzkopf commanded I Corps; he held championships at each post under his command and then held an I Corps championship two of the three years I was in I Corps. I won the Alaska match all three years I competed, got beat by a Ranger (finished second) at my first I Corps championship and won the last year I shot there. At the time I was a captain, and unlike most officers, I proudly wore my shooting badge and leg badge.

Those of you/us that have attained a classification of Master or High Master with or without military background and using a rifle you are familiar with would have no problem in hitting a deer or whatever target at a 400yd. range and do so without the use of a scope, micrometer peep sights. Not the preferred sight system but the above classifications would have been earned shooting far beyond a 400yd. target
with such sights. Unless there is a gale of wind taking place, wind is manageable for those having to deal with it for several thousands of rounds down range. I am not an advocate of taking shots at game at extended ranges, but if forced to do so in order to eat, you bet I would, not for a trophy head which I can't eat.
If you know your "come ups" for your caliber the target will take a hit if reading the wind correctly. I know the come ups for the 308 very well, but what are the come ups for the 300Win Mag from 100 to 400yds?? From 100 to 300 for the 308 is some 5moa. Would 3moa more for the 300WinMag be a bit high at 400?? I don't know and curious to see what others think.