Old story about just common farm folk's daughter ending up in Carnegie Hall playing the "fiddle" and when asked by neighbor, "How did she get there playing the fiddle?" Answer, practice, practice, practice. Same rule applies with shooting, practice, practice, practice.

Will it make you a better hunter? Absolutely, IF you are honest with yourself.

Set up a target at 500 yds, something with an 8 inch bulls eye if you can. Shoot 5 shots prone, all the bullets hit the bull? If not try 450, 400, 350 etc. It may disappoint you rather badly just how close you need to be to get all 5 into the bull. Do the same sitting, kneeling, standing. Total BS detector.

Just a thought, if your FIRST shot at whatever distance misses the bullseye, you probably wounded an animal at that distance.

Bad shooting habits are really obvious at longer ranges, it will clean up your shooting, thus making your short range shots better.

Just because you can shoot sub-inch groups at 100 yds from a bench, with sand bags, on a windless day, with no time constraints, doesn't mean you can hold a 5 inch group at 550yds in the badlands of eastern Montana. The real world is very unforgiving. Go shoot PD's at really long range on a windy day with your big game rifle if you want to see how good a shot - you're NOT.

There was a film on a sniper competition were they played loud music, shouted at the shooter, had explosions go off at odd moments all under severe time constraints. Amazing how guys who do this for a living can screw up under pressure. How long does it take, for you and me as part time causual shooters, to get an accurate shot off at any range? And under what conditions?

I moved to Idaho in the summer of 1978. I started shooting Rockchucks and Prairie Dogs the next spring. It took me awhile to get good at estimating distance and working the holdover out.

Then I got a pair of Geovids. And built a heavy rifle in a wildcat 25 caliber. And I got a scope done at Premier Reticle with seven dots on the vertical crosshair and windage lines 3moa left and right of the vertical crosshair. And that combination let me shoot farther and farther, with confidence any Rockchuck closer than half a mile's ass was mine. That sort of practice definitely makes you a better hunter at any distance.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
Will it make you a better hunter? Absolutely, IF you are honest with yourself.

Set up a target at 500 yds, something with an 8 inch bulls eye if you can. Shoot 5 shots prone, all the bullets hit the bull? If not try 450, 400, 350 etc. It may disappoint you rather badly just how close you need to be to get all 5 into the bull. Do the same sitting, kneeling, standing. Total BS detector.

Just a thought, if your FIRST shot at whatever distance misses the bullseye, you probably wounded an animal at that distance.

Bad shooting habits are really obvious at longer ranges, it will clean up your shooting, thus making your short range shots better.

Just because you can shoot sub-inch groups at 100 yds from a bench, with sand bags, on a windless day, with no time constraints, doesn't mean you can hold a 5 inch group at 550yds in the badlands of eastern Montana. The real world is very unforgiving. Go shoot PD's at really long range on a windy day with your big game rifle if you want to see how good a shot - you're NOT.

There was a film on a sniper competition were they played loud music, shouted at the shooter, had explosions go off at odd moments all under severe time constraints. Amazing how guys who do this for a living can screw up under pressure. How long does it take, for you and me as part time causual shooters, to get an accurate shot off at any range? And under what conditions?

I think what you have explained would be very good practice. I have the range to do that and will give it a try. I also have lots of PD's and more than enough wind here in eastern Co. My main concern when I originally ask the question was I had been spending a lot of time prone at 1000 yds. concentrating on my breathing, reading mirage, fiddleing with my scope and then getting a shot off. Great practice but I found that my reaction time wasn't up to par for the shots that are more common for big game hunting. Now that I'm back from elk hunting I have been practicing more on the sitting, kneeling, and offhand shooting. Walking, getting my gun up and shooting. I think its helping. The guys I hunt with are all at least 25 yrs. younger than me so I need all the practice I can get.

I pulled out my scrap books and started looking back at "shots taken". Funny, I don't see many prone, most were from a sitting position. The old Stoneypoint bi-bod shows up in a lot of pictures. One of the nasty realities of hunting flat country is that you might have a tough time finding a prone position that doesn't have you looking at a bush, grass clump or dirt clod. Sage brush often makes prone shots impossible. This year I had one prone shot, laying on the edge of a cliff shooting down 157 lazered yards at a mule deer buck. I shot two whitetail does off the Harris bi-pod on my 270, but I was standing/leaning on a hay bale looking down at the deer. Everything else was off the sticks sitting or kneeling and one standing off the sticks at 150 yards.

I do a great deal of shooting on a friends farm for gophers, Park county Montana evidently has the highest concentration of Richardson's ground squirrels in the state. I really have to work at finding a spot where I can shoot prone. Off-hand and off sticks provide about 85% of the shots.

I bring all this up because I get the impression that some people kid themselves that they will get a prone shot as a rule, rather than as the exception. Getting "set up" can cost you a shooting oppurtunity. Now that I think about it and have reviewed my logs I will change my practice to "lots and lots" of sitting/kneeling off sticks, more off-hand and occationally prone. Shooting prone is so attractive because the results are generally very impressive.

I like most of the comments. I think Hunter Montana summed it up best from my perspective.

Bench work is essential to see what the RIFLE will do but field shooting is KING to see what YOU can do.

We soom figure out that a good rest, on something solid, is a bunch better than shooting off a knee!

After each bench session I always take at least 3 off-hand shots at a clean target. It's good practice and it keeps me honest about my abilities in that position.

Just my 2 cents.... for free!

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
I pulled out my scrap books and started looking back at "shots taken". Funny, I don't see many prone, most were from a sitting position. The old Stoneypoint bi-bod shows up in a lot of pictures. One of the nasty realities of hunting flat country is that you might have a tough time finding a prone position that doesn't have you looking at a bush, grass clump or dirt clod. Sage brush often makes prone shots impossible. This year I had one prone shot, laying on the edge of a cliff shooting down 157 lazered yards at a mule deer buck. I shot two whitetail does off the Harris bi-pod on my 270, but I was standing/leaning on a hay bale looking down at the deer. Everything else was off the sticks sitting or kneeling and one standing off the sticks at 150 yards.

I do a great deal of shooting on a friends farm for gophers, Park county Montana evidently has the highest concentration of Richardson's ground squirrels in the state. I really have to work at finding a spot where I can shoot prone. Off-hand and off sticks provide about 85% of the shots.

I bring all this up because I get the impression that some people kid themselves that they will get a prone shot as a rule, rather than as the exception. Getting "set up" can cost you a shooting oppurtunity. Now that I think about it and have reviewed my logs I will change my practice to "lots and lots" of sitting/kneeling off sticks, more off-hand and occationally prone. Shooting prone is so attractive because the results are generally very impressive.

I have said it before: show me a guy who can shoot sitting with nothing but a sling and hit out to 400 yards and I will show you a guy with a bigger trophy room than someone who lugs around a .338 that weighs ten pounds and takes prone shots from 800 yards and farther.

The comment about PDs is good, but most PDs are not shot at extremely long ranges. Past 600 yards and the wind really gets to be tricky, as I have said time and again.

At some point the time of flight combined with the changes in wind speed during the time of flight pretty much rule out at a slam dunk.

Mikem0553: I agree with you. I practice sitting with a sling at 500 yards and with a bipod/sling at 600 and 700 yards almost exclusively, thinking if I can hit there why practice much at 400 and shorter?

Dawned on me I better be absolutely sure where I am hitting at 200, 300, and 400, as that is where the game is shot. I too keep a log and find almost everything I shoot except whitetails is done between 100 and 200 yards. All of my elk except one came at less than 100 yards.

I'm fortunate to have a couple of spots to shoot PD's where the town is in a valley and I can shoot down on them out to nearly 1000 yds. The wind? Ha ha ha ha ha, even with a 270, 130gr at 3100fps I occasionally get it so seriously wrong I miss by several feet! Most of the time when it's windy I just miss. Like I've said, total BS detector. It would be wildly irresponsible to take shots at those distances, 500yds +, under those conditions, at a deer or antelope. I have to seriously question the stories of consistent "one shot" kills at those ranges I read on the internet. Yes, given the right conditions it is very do-able. BUT, the shooter is going to have to exercise some serious self control and "walk-away" from less than ideal situations. This is sport hunting, you're not trying to interdict terrorists on the Afghan boarder.

I have the same scope on my 270, 223 and 22LR. I've found that having the same site picture, these are fixed power (10X) scopes, has helped my shooting. I have to deal with come-ups and wind drift with the 22LR that are somewhat proportional to the other calibers. Target size as seen through the scope is also somewhat proportional, 4" of gopher at about 100yds "looks" like a 18" deer at about 500yds. I've also set the trigger pulls on my 270 and 223 the same. I've got a very light trigger on the 22LR but that's something I should change but probably won't because it makes shooting off-hand easier. I have Harris bi-pods on all three rifles, mostly so that I can set them down without them laying in the dirt, once in a while I do get some prone shots. The Stoneypoint bi-pod is what I shoot off of mostly. I also use my range-finder binoculars all the time, again, familiarity breeds confidence and competence.

I have not read all three pages. Just wanted to give my answer to the OP.

"Hell yes!"

Alan

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
I'm fortunate to have a couple of spots to shoot PD's where the town is in a valley and I can shoot down on them out to nearly 1000 yds. The wind? Ha ha ha ha ha, even with a 270, 130gr at 3100fps I occasionally get it so seriously wrong I miss by several feet! Most of the time when it's windy I just miss. Like I've said, total BS detector. It would be wildly irresponsible to take shots at those distances, 500yds +, under those conditions, at a deer or antelope. I have to seriously question the stories of consistent "one shot" kills at those ranges I read on the internet. Yes, given the right conditions it is very do-able. BUT, the shooter is going to have to exercise some serious self control and "walk-away" from less than ideal situations. This is sport hunting, you're not trying to interdict terrorists on the Afghan boarder.

I have the same scope on my 270, 223 and 22LR. I've found that having the same site picture, these are fixed power (10X) scopes, has helped my shooting. I have to deal with come-ups and wind drift with the 22LR that are somewhat proportional to the other calibers. Target size as seen through the scope is also somewhat proportional, 4" of gopher at about 100yds "looks" like a 18" deer at about 500yds. I've also set the trigger pulls on my 270 and 223 the same. I've got a very light trigger on the 22LR but that's something I should change but probably won't because it makes shooting off-hand easier. I have Harris bi-pods on all three rifles, mostly so that I can set them down without them laying in the dirt, once in a while I do get some prone shots. The Stoneypoint bi-pod is what I shoot off of mostly. I also use my range-finder binoculars all the time, again, familiarity breeds confidence and competence.

Montana:

I have said it a million times on here, but a 180 grain Nosler AB at 3300 fps drifts 3 inches for each 1 mph of wind at 700 yards. Assuming you can shoot 5 inch groups in the field at that range means that you must estimate the wind speed with .8 mph all the way to target, or you stand a chance of missing. Once the wind speed error is 1.6 mph you stand a 50% chance of missing, no matter how accurate the rifle, because your group is now centered on the far edge of the vital area.

I have said a few times I shot a PD once, sitting, using dots for wind and range, and hit it with the first shot at 573 yards. Big deal. Can I do it every time?

quote:

that you must estimate the wind speed with .8 mph all the way to target

Gusting winds kill long range accuracy.
Those little 10-15mph gusting winds can be some of the worst to shoot in. For some reason, it always knows to pick up just as you pull the trigger.

Suggestion only, but an excellent way to practice long range shooting and dealing with the wind is to take your favorite 22 rimfire and a Std. SR 200yd target and assume your most stable position, bench, prone, bipod, etc. and see what your score is for 20 shots. 200 possible. Most scopes will not attain the elevation req'd, hold off may be required. Micrometer sights will work fine. Takes very little wind to blow the bullet out of the 10 ring and beyond and trying to judge the wind becomes a very important factor. It is a good learning experience and at low cost. Prone or bench is obviously stable, but the sitting position will give more "real world" training and show up real quick any weak areas you have in breathing, hold, sight picture, etc. It's also a lot of fun!

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

that you must estimate the wind speed with .8 mph all the way to target

Gusting winds kill long range accuracy.
Those little 10-15mph gusting winds can be some of the worst to shoot in. For some reason, it always knows to pick up just as you pull the trigger.

Amen to that!

I suggest that if you are interested in long range shot accuracy you read Bryan Litz's book Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting.

Pay special attention to chapter 15, Hit Probability for Hunting. In this as well as other chapters he discusses the multiple factors involved in making a shot at long range. There are factors that you can "know" and there are factors that you can only "estimate".

Far too many shooters are lead to believe that all factors can be "known" when in fact they can not. Wind can NEVER be anything other than estimated in a field situation. Even on a range with wind flags every 50yds to the target you are still "estimating" the wind effect because you will notice that the wind flags are almost always doing a different little dance all the way to the target. Yes, with lots of practice you can get very, very good at it. BUT, it's still a matter of shooter skill and practical application over a long period of time and LOTS of shots taken.

Wind causes horizontal dispersion, a range finder and really accurate loads will only account for vertical dispersion. Buy a wiz-bang 300 mag, a Nightforce scope and the worlds best wind velocity gauge (Only to discover that this tells you the wind velocity where YOU are not half way to the 1000 yd target). How wrong can you be? You can miss by several feet or you can gut shoot something very, very easily.

With PD's you can set up, have a bit of tea, lunch maybe, let the wind die down, shoot early and take a nap until it slows down or get to know it's pattern, 10-15mph from the west, then fairly calm, 2-5 from the west-north-west, whatever. Settle into rifle, get a nice cheek weld, maybe take a few "shots" with the snap cap to loosen up, study the mirage a bit, best guest on wind, squeeze one off, correct for windage for the next one...

WHAT? WAIT A SECOND.

How many times do you get that kind of time big game hunting? Let alone a second shot at an target that will stand there while you fire several shots at it?

I tried to shoot at 550yds one day at the range when the wind was howling and variable. I shoot there a lot. I have the click up right on for clay birds at that range, I've walked the range with a wind meter and noted flag positions with a wind velocity meter. Wind was something like 7.5 MOA 9o'clock, I shot and hit. Next shot everything SEEMED the same, missed by a good foot. Ended up hitting once in 10 shots, all of which were all over the map left and right. Walked up the range and noted gusts to 35+ at one point, never more than 15 at others.

JMHO....but a hunter that can shoot 2 MOA out to 300 yds is going to be very successful. When I lived in Germany, the most enjoyable hunting I did was stalking game...getting close...being patient...and getting the good shot up close and personal...and sometimes maybe not.

I don't consider 800 yd shooting as hunting...its sport but then so is shooting matchsticks with a 22.