When i go elk hunting, i see so many more wounded deer in the forest than i used to.
These block heads with ultra mags and ballistic reticles , probably think they missed , or worse , lost sight of the buck under recoil and shot at a second one.
its just plain wrong ! tj3006

The purpose of this forum is to make sure exactly that doesn't happen. I guarantee I can more accurately and humanely place a shot at 700 yards with my 338 than nearly all average hunters could at 400.

can you define "average hunters" for us?

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
The purpose of this forum is to make sure exactly that doesn't happen. I guarantee I can more accurately and humanely place a shot at 700 yards with my 338 than nearly all average hunters could at 400.

I had a hunter with a Lapua who wanted to shoot at 700yds while the bear was coming in our direction,,a while later he missed it at 60yds!

Was he an average hunter?

quote:

Originally posted by waterrat:

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
The purpose of this forum is to make sure exactly that doesn't happen. I guarantee I can more accurately and humanely place a shot at 700 yards with my 338 than nearly all average hunters could at 400.

I had a hunter with a Lapua who wanted to shoot at 700yds while the bear was coming in our direction,,a while later he missed it at 60yds!

Was he an average hunter?

Unfortunately very likely yes...

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
The purpose of this forum is to make sure exactly that doesn't happen. I guarantee I can more accurately and humanely place a shot at 700 yards with my 338 than nearly all average hunters could at 400.

Tyler:

Mathematically, I am sure you are correct. But that doesn't mean the average hunter takes a 400 yard shot.

I have no idea how the average hunter would do at 400 yards, but let's assume the average hit rate is 25%. Tripling that rate at 700 yards still results in a miss/wound rate of 25% which to me is unacceptable.

I would say the big .338s make long range hits far easier than anything I have every used (I currently am shooting an Edge and Lapua). However, for general hunting, the heavy rifles themselves are a fairly big handicap when it comes to shooting game. It is no big trick to hit a pie plate at 500 yards with a lot of factory rifles, but stretching that to 700 yards requires some pretty heavy rigs, which by themselves limit you, to say nothing of the weekly practice sessions required to learn how to dope the wind (and stay sharp). Even then, doing so in the same area robs you of the very necessary exercise of learning how geography impacts wind, updrafts, etc.

IMO, which is all any of have on this site, being able to hit a pie plate at 5 or 6 hundred yards from a sitting position puts more trophies in the pot than a bigger gun from which you have to shoot prone.

Why the hell would you shoot at 5 or 600 yards from a sitting position if laying prone was an option??? I use the steadiest position available at the time of the shot. If I can't hold steady enough, I don't shoot. Any animal I've ever encountered at extended range (600 plus) I had more than enough time to find a suitable place to lay down and kill the animal cleanly, and quite a few closer than that too. Every animal I've witnessed being shot 'at' beyond 500 yards has died much more cleanly than many under that distance. Yes, I've witnessed some neophyte (slob) hunters, but really wouldn't classify them as average.

quote:

Originally posted by matt salm:
Why the hell would you shoot at 5 or 600 yards from a sitting position if laying prone was an option??? I use the steadiest position available at the time of the shot. If I can't hold steady enough, I don't shoot. Any animal I've ever encountered at extended range (600 plus) I had more than enough time to find a suitable place to lay down and kill the animal cleanly, and quite a few closer than that too. Every animal I've witnessed being shot 'at' beyond 500 yards has died much more cleanly than many under that distance. Yes, I've witnessed some neophyte (slob) hunters, but really wouldn't classify them as average.

I actually shot a mule deer at 410 yards sitting with my bipod and sling instead of shooting sitting because I practice sitting all the time. I killed the deer with one shot including holding 2 MOA for the wind.

Yesterday I went out bird hunting, but before doing so I took one shot at 800 yards with a .300 RUM sitting with my bipod. Held just inside the 2 MOA line for wind after studying it for quite some time. Hit the right side of my 2.5 inch aiming circle. Switched to my .220 Swift shooting 80 gr AMAX bullets. Judged the wind, held 3 MOA, and hit about 2 inches right of the edge of the circle.

When I shoot sitting, I can hold the crosshair absolutely DEAD steady on what I aiming. You certainly are not assured of being able to shoot prone. How many caribou have you shot this way? Elk? What about Africa? There is no way you are shooting prone there. My guess is your experience is mostly antelope, where yes, you can often get prone.

To use the words of Tyler, I can shoot better sitting with my bipod and shooting sling than most guys shoot prone.

Actually the majority of my experience has been elk and mule deer in the mountains of CO. Only hunted lopes once and shot was at 200 and shot from a sitting position using a fence post as side support. And yes, I have twisted myself into interesting positions in order to get a steady position for a shot. I very well may have to include sitting w/ bipod into my practice and see what I'm capable of there. Honestly I just didn't consider sitting as steady although I have shot decently enough to place near the top at the Winston Matches for the Guards. Was invited to try-out for the All-Guard team both times I competed there...life and schedules prevented that dream of an opportunity. No Africa experience, probably never will be but have filled my rifle elk tag every time (8 now) on DIY public land CO hunts... Prone works for me and is my steadiest and preferred position. I have snuggled up to a boulder and used that sitting on my backside. I have no doubt when you say you're dead solid from sitting that is what you are, generally most aren't and I'd appreciate some pointer from you.

Best regards,
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by matt salm:
Actually the majority of my experience has been elk and mule deer in the mountains of CO. Only hunted lopes once and shot was at 200 and shot from a sitting position using a fence post as side support. And yes, I have twisted myself into interesting positions in order to get a steady position for a shot. I very well may have to include sitting w/ bipod into my practice and see what I'm capable of there. Honestly I just didn't consider sitting as steady although I have shot decently enough to place near the top at the Winston Matches for the Guards. Was invited to try-out for the All-Guard team both times I competed there...life and schedules prevented that dream of an opportunity. No Africa experience, probably never will be but have filled my rifle elk tag every time (8 now) on DIY public land CO hunts... Prone works for me and is my steadiest and preferred position. I have snuggled up to a boulder and used that sitting on my backside. I have no doubt when you say you're dead solid from sitting that is what you are, generally most aren't and I'd appreciate some pointer from you.

Best regards,
Matt

My technique is described in this story:

http://envoyoutdoors.com/field...-a-truly-great-shot/

I don't really explain it that well in this story, but scroll down until you see a pic of the rifle butt on my knee with the sling on my left arm. I am relaxing my left leg, which causes the whole thing to become super steady. The pic is opposite of the pic of the leopard.

If it doesn't make sense PM me and we can chat on the phone.

I know how you feel about competing; I was invited to shoot with AMU after I won the Alaska Army championship three years in a row and took 1 and 2 the two years they held an I Corps competition. But I was an officer, so that route was suicidal. Oh well...Scott Rupp did and is one of a few writers with that skillset.

Thanks much, just as you describe it makes sense and I have experienced doing similar, but never really spent the time working on it, surely never practiced it.

If you cannot get closer than 5-600 yds you are not a hunter but are just a shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by ztreh:
If you cannot get closer than 5-600 yds you are not a hunter but are just a shooter.

This is completely BS. A bow hunter might say that if you can't get within 25 yards you ain't a hunting. Hunting is not and can not be defined by distance to try, is to argue against hunting, whether you realize it or not.

More important than caliber and distance, is knowing the shooter's capability or lack thereof. Opening day, here in Idaho, we shot 3 whitetails (2 extra doe tags, and 1 buck) in 30 minutes. All one shot kills, with a 308 win and a 300 win. At, what most posting here, would consider "long" shots but well within the capabilities of the rifles, ammo, shooters, and weather conditions. We know these capabilities because of much off season practice and verification, on paper and varmints. Without this practice, 200 yds could be considered too far, I would imagine. Throwing a "blanket distance" over all shooters, based on caliber, makes no sense...especially when wind drift is a much bigger factor (harder to dope) than trajectory.....and this varies all day long. Minute to minute. To me, this is what determines if and when I take the shot, at distance. A shooter needs to know his (and his equipment's) limitations, and stay well within them.

What is a bigger concern for me, here in Idaho, is the lack of a minimum caliber for big game, and not the weight of the rifle.....which would be a discussion at the other end of the caliber spectrum. ANY center fire is legal here on big game (including goat, sheep, moose and elk). Leave your rim fire at home, and you are good to go. I can't imagine hunting the above mentioned game, with a .204 or a .17 rem. Andy #3

I am not a fan of shooting at game at extreme ranges, 400yds and beyond, but if going to practice such hunting, highly suggest a lot of time "behind the gun" in different shooting positions. Sitting position can be a very stable one and w/ good sling set up very close to being as accurate as the prone position. No question that you should acquire the most stable position/rest available but stump,limb, earth mound, etc. not always available in the field. Proper sling is your portable bench rest so to speak. I shot High Power and Long range for years and did well at both, but shooting at a known distance and possible moving target to some degree is a whole different world. It brings a laugh to me when I see some of the videos hunting an animal the size of an elephant and only some 40yds or so away the shooting sticks are employed. Go shoot some 200yd HP matches off hand and keep them in the 10 ring for ten shots and then you can leave the sticks in the truck, but if not confident of your shooting skills use whatever support you need to make a "clean kill."