Which do you believe is the MOST important of all the Load Development parameters?

Question:
Which is the absolutely, without doubt, the MOST Important when Developing a L-o-n-g Distance Load?

Choices:
1. Accuracy is the MOST important of all.
2. High Retained Energy is the MOST important of all.
3. The lowest Standard Deviation is the MOST important of all.
4. Balancing all the above is the MOST important.
5. Accuracy is the MOST important, while Balancing RE & SD.
6. Other?

 

I've proved that you can't seem to have 1. without 3.

For target shooting or hunting?

You can have 3, but not 1, but seldom the other way around.

Hotcore, for a longrange hunting load, I'm looking for the most accurate, flexable load I can build.

Accurate: 1/4-1/2 MOA.
Low SD: minimize verticle stringing.
High velocity, High BC, more forgiving.
Bullet that will perform over a wide range of impact velocities.
Enough fiz to get the job done.

It really matters what the load is for, like Ghubert says.

For targets you're going to shoot the bullet with the biggest BC. For long range it's all about BC. The construction will be target construction.

For game at long range, you'll want a big BC as well and good construction. Bullets with a big BC will naturally have a big SD and be heavy for the caliber. I don't think you necessarily need tight "group" accuracy, just cold bore accuracy that is spot on and repeatable.

quote:

Which do you believe is the MOST important of all the Load Development parameters?

Question:
Which is the absolutely, without doubt, the MOST Important when Developing a L-o-n-g Distance Load?

Choices:
1. Accuracy is the MOST important of all.
2. High Retained Energy is the MOST important of all.
3. The lowest Standard Deviation is the MOST important of all.
4. Balancing all the above is the MOST important.
5. Accuracy is the MOST important, while Balancing RE & SD.
6. Other?

I'm kinda in the "more momentum" camp at the moment.

When shooting developmental loads for long distance (300+ yards... and beyond) I have found that the lowest possible SD's are very important, but if that load doesn't shoot what''s the point? So as always accuracy first, and attention to details should yield acceptable SD's.

An example of how powders will vary has recently been brought home to me working with the IMR 8208 XBR and the 77 Sierra MK's in the .223. I had never previously seen SD's in the low single digits from an AR with my Oehler system, now they are common. Some powders just don't do that for you.

Queston for ya'll about concentricity.

Maybe a hole in my game, but here goes.
I load with std. RCBS or Redding Dies. Typically full length sizing my brass. From time to time I anneal, but not often. Lately I've taken to investing in the lee collet neck dies for certain calibers. I hand trickle each load and have a max deviation of less than 20 fps, many times.
I always go to the range before I take a rifle hunting, that way I know the POI cold bore, at 100 and 200. All rifles I hunt with currently will do MOA at 200 with my handloads, or I don't keep them.
I employ the use of a stoney point OAL gauge and know the distance off the lands for each rifle/bullet combination. However as most of the rifles I shoot are commercial chambers, many times it is not practical to seat the bullet .005 to .050 off the lands.

However, I do not have a concentricity gauge. Therefore,I don't know the bullet run-out of my loads.

Hence my question. How many of ya'll measure your bullet run out, or concentricity of your loads and have you been able to prove to your satisfaction that this is/is not a factor at say 500, 750, or 1k yds?

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
It really matters what the load is for, like Ghubert says.

For targets you're going to shoot the bullet with the biggest BC. For long range it's all about BC. The construction will be target construction.

For game at long range, you'll want a big BC as well and good construction. Bullets with a big BC will naturally have a big SD and be heavy for the caliber. I don't think you necessarily need tight "group" accuracy, just cold bore accuracy that is spot on and repeatable.

quote:

Which do you believe is the MOST important of all the Load Development parameters?

Question:
Which is the absolutely, without doubt, the MOST Important when Developing a L-o-n-g Distance Load?

Choices:
1. Accuracy is the MOST important of all.
2. High Retained Energy is the MOST important of all.
3. The lowest Standard Deviation is the MOST important of all.
4. Balancing all the above is the MOST important.
5. Accuracy is the MOST important, while Balancing RE & SD.
6. Other?

I'm kinda in the "more momentum" camp at the moment.

Cold bore POI is indeed the order of the day for long range hunting.

quote:

How many of ya'll measure your bullet run out,

Geedubya, I'm about ready to start chasing that demon.

On another site someone tested it. Loaded some ammo, but his 10 lowest runout in one lott, 10 worst in another lot, this was out of 50 and went to the range. Shot a 20 round string, alternating between the two 10 shot groups. It made a difference, I just don't remember how much.

I check runout. It's tough to eliminate. I have competition dies. Some of my rounds have very little .001" and some have .005" and I can't seem to find out why.

I've never tested the best ones side by side to the worst.

I'm thinking about comparing some different dies. In some calibers I have more then set of different brands. I'm wondering who produces what kind of results.

I like HC's thread here about developing Long Range Loads but I hope I don't HiJack the thread by deviating from the poll he set.

I'd like to talk about just one of the poll parameters; Devloping an Accurate Long Range Load.

I could have started a new thread, but HC's thread title encompasses this.

We talk about how to develop an accurate load all the time here on the forums. Some shoot groups, some use the Audette Ladder method, and still others do things that don't make much sense but works for them.

I develop using Audette Ladders. I have used groups as well even after I started using the Audette Method. Both seem to work well and get you to the desired end; an accurate Long Range Load with as little vertical dispersion as possible.

I think that eliminating vertical dispersion is the key to long range accuracy.

The Audette Ladder when shot at long range identifies the harmonic nodes of accuracy for the barrel. Loads in the identified node will have minimal vertical when properly tuned.

Here is a couple of examples:





Shot this one yesterday and loaded test loads right in the middle of the node at 42.5 grains. Headed out this AM for a seating depth test to tune. I took the press and dies and had seated all of the test loads .010" into the lands. I start there with a couple of shots and if they are close together, shoot more. If not, I seat deeper in .010" increments till they group well...with no vertical dispersion.

I think that I will never cease to be amazed on how much affect bullet seating depth has on group shape and size. The loads into the lands strung horizontally at 200 about 3 1/2". The next couple of depths I shot 2 of each because they were so far apart it was rediculous, vertical between the 2 shots of about 3 1/2" inches.

When I seated down to .030" off of the rifling, Shazooky!!! The group dialed in to this:





Here's one with the 6.5 Creedmoor





A few shots in the node on that one. I've tried every load there and have recently changed to the 42 grain load. The 42.6 started to have too much vertical and I couldn't tune it out with depth changes. 42 grains gave me a .9" 4-shot group this morning at .010" into the lands, on the lands, and .010" off.


Shot this at 500 yards with the .300 WM




It resulted in a load that does this at 300 yards...



A ladder I shot with the 208 grain A-Max in the same rifle resulted in a load that does this at 650 yards...





I like the Audette Method and it has worked for me. For hunting loads where other parameters are important like the SD, Momentum, KE, bullet choice should take care of them.

How do you all do it?

All long range load development for me is for NRA High Power match shooting, prone/sling either scope or "iron sights." Long range officially begins at 600yds in this type of shooting and not having such range available utilize local range of 3-400yds. For me the performance at 100 to 200 does not give me a good picture of what accuracy I am looking for in matches. 300yds is good for preparing for a 600yd match and gives some indication as to influence by wind, mirage,shootng position, trigger control, pulse monitoring, etc. Not much of a factor at less than 300, it's there, but not a problem. Since I am not needing anymore power than what is required to punch a hole in paper, the bullet construction, durability wise, is not an issue with me. Don't do long range hunting, but for those that do, have at it.
Now the shape/design of the bullet is important in how it flies to target. Velocity is only important as long as it is capable of keeping it supersonic at the target face. Most if not all will be supersonic at 600yds., not a problem. If the rifle, load, and me of course can keep 20 rounds in a cone of 1 moa at 300yds, I am good to go. It is said that shootes will have an individual "cone" of shots as in a Dixie Cup. You will have an inner cone and an outer cone created by errant shot placement. Will all 20 shots be in that inner cone size? Answer is no, but I had better know why they impacted outside of the 10 ring. I call each shot and plot on plot sheet and then look w/ spotting scope to see if my call and the actual shot is equal. Might mention that while plotting shot placement you see a grouping of 3-4 shots drifting toward the 9 ring one way or the other, make a sight adjustment to bring back into center area, 10 or X ring. The plot sheet is invaluable in telling you what is going on out there. Scoring for shooter some years ago and he shot a very small group at 600yds, but they were all balled up in a group in the 7 ring at 2 o'clock!! Not shooting for groups, but rather score. That is why they put knobs/drums on the sights. A plot sheet would have hopefully prevented this occuring. Std. data books have such sheets for just about all ranges.

As to the load itself w/ 308 I use Sierra Match Kings exclusively and find them forgiving in just how much distance you have between ogive and lands and grooves. The bullet seating depth has varied from zero to some 20thousands off with little variance in accuracy, but in my rifles and their chambers I settled on .005" off and it works for me. Actual charge of powder I try to keep within no more than 2 tenths grain variance. With IMR4064 it is hard to do, takes a lot of care. Purposely load short and tricle last bit in to get there. Using Dillon 550 loading machine and w/ Varget or RE15 it will come very close to that charge of powder on a regular basis. I check run out on rounds about every 4th one and am looking for less than .004 total. Use Dillon dies and full length resize each time and find this to work well for me.
Would mention that when seating bullet, rotate brass a bit during seating operation, two to three times before final seating. What does this do? Have no idea, but was told to do it by Olympic level shooter many years ago and figured he knew a lot more about the game than I did. A "batch" of ammo for a long range match is 100 rounds for me and if there is going to be several weeks prior to actually using them I will partially seat the bullet. Final seating done just prior to going to match. Idea is to prevent "cold weld" but probably is not necessary, just a habit started by same shooter telling me to rotate the round during seating.
My loads are same for ranges from 600, 800, 900 or 1000yds depending on bullet weight which varies from 155's to 190's. In my rifles, the Sierra 190MK will get the job done at all ranges and far less finicky in wind.
The 20rnd string is one third of a match. To shoot half a dozen or so rounds won't give me a true picture of how everything is working and treat it as a trial match. Some matches give you sighters, some do not, so best to be on your game when you show up and know very well how your rifle performs and most imortantly how you perform. It's a mind game and eventually you will feel very comfortable doing it for you got rid of the butterflies, hopefully.

IMHO,

THE BEST way to develop a LR load.

http://www.accurateshooter.com...ge-load-development/

Alan

You're so humble!


And right!

An excellent article and good info for benchrest or a "static" rifle situation. Know some HP long range shooters who follow that program as spelled out, but their scores have not improved. Not condeming the approach for it is entirely two different worlds of shooting due to the human factor involved and sling as only support involved. I don't know how many rounds make up a benchrest long range match or the time frame allowed, but for HP it is 60 total,3x20 plus sighters if there are any in 30 minutes per 20rnds. Fatigue sets in on a hot day and by the 10th or 12th round the barrel is hotter than you want to touch w/ bare hands and by the 20th round is scorching hot.
Ultimate goal is to place all the shots in a circle some 20" at 1000yds and if you are going to have a good score, 196 or above, some 40-50% of the shots should be in the X ring, 10". Always willing to learn and wil do some ladder loading/firing and see what happens. Good info in the article you provided.