Not to start a huge debate on ballistics of a .260, they are what they are. That said, I personally know people that consistently shoot it at 1500 yards and make 1st round hits on 18"x20" targets. Making this tough of a shot sounds like it takes quite the skill but is not impossible, I personally have not yet tried it at that distance.

I appreciate the input you all have given to me. This greatly helps as I try to narrow down my selection. Perhaps a short action is not the way to go, after all, it is just what I have so wanted to make it work.

I'm intrigued to learn more about the 7mm-300WSM. It seems as though the 7mm-300 win mag is a popular long-range cartridge, hadn't even thought to consider it in a short mag.

If you google 7-300wsm you will see a few links to precision shooting articles with this cartridge. The Brits have been using it in F Class with some success for a while, and a few tactical match shooters have been using the 7-300WSM, although 6mms and 6.5s are far more popular in tactical match circles.

As already stated, a short action will limit you somewhat, although I believe a 7WSM or 7-300WSM would be your best option if you do really want to go with a short action.

One question though - how important is magazine feeding? Unless you need to move and shoot multiple shots (ie tactical matches) there is not reason you couldn't do much of your shooting single feed. Then you are have a lot less limitations on how far you seat out your bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana_500:
If you google 7-300wsm you will see a few links to precision shooting articles with this cartridge. The Brits have been using it in F Class with some success for a while, and a few tactical match shooters have been using the 7-300WSM, although 6mms and 6.5s are far more popular in tactical match circles.

As already stated, a short action will limit you somewhat, although I believe a 7WSM or 7-300WSM would be your best option if you do really want to go with a short action.

One question though - how important is magazine feeding? Unless you need to move and shoot multiple shots (ie tactical matches) there is not reason you couldn't do much of your shooting single feed. Then you are have a lot less limitations on how far you seat out your bullets.

Magazine feeding is not an issue. If I have to pull the bolt out each time to load a round I am fine with that. This gun is simply for fun, not competition. I just like going out in the desert and shooting long-range.

I may go ahead and switch to a long-action.

quote:

Originally posted by DPollard:
Not to start a huge debate on ballistics of a .260, they are what they are. That said, I personally know people that consistently shoot it at 1500 yards and make 1st round hits on 18"x20" targets. Making this tough of a shot sounds like it takes quite the skill but is not impossible, I personally have not yet tried it at that distance.

I appreciate the input you all have given to me. This greatly helps as I try to narrow down my selection. Perhaps a short action is not the way to go, after all, it is just what I have so wanted to make it work.

I'm intrigued to learn more about the 7mm-300WSM. It seems as though the 7mm-300 win mag is a popular long-range cartridge, hadn't even thought to consider it in a short mag.

I would say an 18x20 target is pretty large (certainly bigger than a game animal except maybe a moose), but even then, if the wind is blowing, it is mathematically impossible to hit such a target 90 percent of the time. Even a 1/4 MOA load at that distance will group at best 3.75 inches. On a 20 inch wide target that gives you only 8.125 inches of error before you start to miss (even a one inch group only leaves you with 9.5 inches). That means you must call the wind within .36 mph or you start to miss. With a nearly 3 second TOF, the wind is absolutely going to change. And don't forget about the issue of mirage displacing your target as well.

Now if there is no wind, fine. And if you are defining first round hits by smacking a 500 yard target, then 750, 1000, 1250, that really doesn't count, as you can see your wind error (relatively benign at 500) and compensate.

The effects of MV are stunning to say the least; you would have to have a maximum velocity spread (not SD, but range) of less than 10 fps or you risk missing, assuming you can shoot 3.75 inch groups at 1500 yards.

The WEZ models that Bryan Litz has developed clearly show how hit rate declines rapidly at long range due to the uncertainty of each factor. In none of his examples is there any combination that results in a hit rate above 50% for an IPSC target at 1500 yards. In one example his hit rate is 99% at 700 and even 85% at 1000, but that same combination produces hit rates of only 38% at 1500 yards. In other words, if your pals can consistently (I read that to mean over 75%) they have got to be 100% at 1000 yards. They need to go to Camp Perry because they will win all the tin and ribbons.

Litz also describes an experiment in which he set up a series of anemometers over a 1500 yard range. What he noted was that recording the wind speed when the bullet was fired often resulted in a different wind speed by the time the bullet crossed that anemometer. Gee, hardly surprising.

For comparison purposes regarding Camp Perry the NRA Long Range matches put shooters in categories by percentages and assign titles as Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, and High Master as per the percentage of score versus possible score. Ranges vary from 600yds. to 1000yds. A High Master shooter needs to display over 240 rounds for record a score of 97.5%(60 rounds/match or 4 matches.) 10 ring some 20" in diameter, X ring some 10" in diameter to give some idea of the size of target at 1000 yards. 308 is the most common cartridge, but there are better calibers but attaining High Master with whatever caliber is not an easy task. This shooting is done prone, sling, mat and no artificial rest or electronic devices on the firing line, only what exists between your ears. Over the past decade or so there now is the F class which means you can use an artificial rest, bipod, bags, etc. but the percentage is tougher. It would be interesting to know what percentage of shots hit the target as you described at ranges at or beyond 1500 yards. No doubt it would be a challenge, but an interesting experience. Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Instructor:
For comparison purposes regarding Camp Perry the NRA Long Range matches put shooters in categories by percentages and assign titles as Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, and High Master as per the percentage of score versus possible score. Ranges vary from 600yds. to 1000yds. A High Master shooter needs to display over 240 rounds for record a score of 97.5%(60 rounds/match or 4 matches.) 10 ring some 20" in diameter, X ring some 10" in diameter to give some idea of the size of target at 1000 yards. 308 is the most common cartridge, but there are better calibers but attaining High Master with whatever caliber is not an easy task. This shooting is done prone, sling, mat and no artificial rest or electronic devices on the firing line, only what exists between your ears. Over the past decade or so there now is the F class which means you can use an artificial rest, bipod, bags, etc. but the percentage is tougher. It would be interesting to know what percentage of shots hit the target as you described at ranges at or beyond 1500 yards. No doubt it would be a challenge, but an interesting experience. Best of luck to you.

Instructor:

You left out the fact almost all competitions allow sighters. So what the OP is claiming is essentially the equivalent of consistently placing the first sighter into the x ring at 1000 yards.

What percentage of first shots go into the X ring? Of course, 1500 is only 50% longer than 1000 yards, but I am guessing is more than twice as difficult. My last six (might have been more but I haven't combed through my logbook) first shots at 700 would have hit a pie plate, but moving out to 840 is a different story. My wind holds on those shots varied from a little over 1 MOA to 4 MOA at 700 and 3-5 MOA at 840. Most of my errors at 840 have been overestimating the wind with my .338 Edge.

Sight in shots are permitted but frequently the match only permits 2-5 sight in shots for the first relay. Two more to go for 60 round match and you may end up in the pits pulling targets for an hour or more and upon your return to the firing line, a lot of changes can take place.
If you have shot enough times at 1000yds. and know your "come ups" and can read the wind most experienced shooters will not take more than a couple sight in shots. Keep in mind that the target face is 72" square and believe the black is 44" in total and skilled shooter will generally be on paper with first shot and take second shot just for insurance and then tell his score keeper, "going for record" for he knows how much to dial the sight to put it in the 10 or X ring. As for putting first sight in shot in the X ring, that is not unheard of, done it myself, but certainly not routine. I know I have my work cut out for me if my initial sight in shots are not 9's and way out in the 7 ring somewhere for I did not read the conditions correctly and have to rethink what I am doing. With a rifle/caliber you have had lots of experience you won't have much elevation variance, but the wind/mirage will upset your game if misread and give you wild left right POI. The biggest "bummer" you can have during a long range match is shooting on the wrong target and coming up with a 10 or X and that shooter gets a "freebie" and you get a big ZERO for that shot. I know a very fine shooter that will routinely eat the center out of that target, but frequently puts one or two shots on the wrong target. Target fixation is a good thing as long as you are "fixed" on the right target.

quote:

Originally posted by Instructor:
Sight in shots are permitted but frequently the match only permits 2-5 sight in shots for the first relay. Two more to go for 60 round match and you may end up in the pits pulling targets for an hour or more and upon your return to the firing line, a lot of changes can take place.
If you have shot enough times at 1000yds. and know your "come ups" and can read the wind most experienced shooters will not take more than a couple sight in shots. Keep in mind that the target face is 72" square and believe the black is 44" in total and skilled shooter will generally be on paper with first shot and take second shot just for insurance and then tell his score keeper, "going for record" for he knows how much to dial the sight to put it in the 10 or X ring. As for putting first sight in shot in the X ring, that is not unheard of, done it myself, but certainly not routine. I know I have my work cut out for me if my initial sight in shots are not 9's and way out in the 7 ring somewhere for I did not read the conditions correctly and have to rethink what I am doing. With a rifle/caliber you have had lots of experience you won't have much elevation variance, but the wind/mirage will upset your game if misread and give you wild left right POI. The biggest "bummer" you can have during a long range match is shooting on the wrong target and coming up with a 10 or X and that shooter gets a "freebie" and you get a big ZERO for that shot. I know a very fine shooter that will routinely eat the center out of that target, but frequently puts one or two shots on the wrong target. Target fixation is a good thing as long as you are "fixed" on the right target.

Thanks Instructor! Your story about shooting the wrong target always brings back memories - I won the US Army I Corps shooting championship because a guy did that. LTG Schwartzkopf presented me with that trophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana_500:
If you google 7-300wsm you will see a few links to precision shooting articles with this cartridge. The Brits have been using it in F Class with some success for a while, and a few tactical match shooters have been using the 7-300WSM, although 6mms and 6.5s are far more popular in tactical match circles.

As already stated, a short action will limit you somewhat, although I believe a 7WSM or 7-300WSM would be your best option if you do really want to go with a short action.

One question though - how important is magazine feeding? Unless you need to move and shoot multiple shots (ie tactical matches) there is not reason you couldn't do much of your shooting single feed. Then you are have a lot less limitations on how far you seat out your bullets.

Yep,

Bastardized versions of the 284 Winchester, 280 Ackely, WSMs, RSAUMS and so on are winning F-class.

Tactical rifle matches are pretty much 6mm and 6.5mm in smaller cartridges.

The difference being F-class has marked targets, and you rarely care about trace.

Tactical matches you want minimal recoil.

I do appreciate the information about the long-range competitions but my intended use is not competition. If we may please get this topic back on track.

quote:

Originally posted by DPollard:
I do appreciate the information about the long-range competitions but my intended use is not competition. If we may please get this topic back on track.

You wanted cartridges, we gave you cartridges and then said it really isn't possible to get what you want.

If 1500 yards is really what you want you need a bigger caliber, in a different action.

I have a Savage 112BV-SS in 7 STW. Even with the Bergers I use it is tough past 1200yds.

It's about a .3moa rifle out to 900, then it grows to about .75moa, when I can dope the wind.

First shot hits are going to be tough.

I'm late to this discussion, but will offer my $.02 based on our experience designing chamber reamers for shooters with the same idea.

Previous writers who questioned the use of a short action have it right. A bullet of the BC needed for long range work will protrude deeply into the body of the case in order to feed through the mag--this takes up powder capacity.

More importantly, because a lot of the ogive is within the neck of the case, the bullet is a looong way from the rifling, thereby handicapping accuracy. Get a long action and make it easier to achieve your goal.

Dave Manson

quote:

Originally posted by DManson:
I'm late to this discussion, but will offer my $.02 based on our experience designing chamber reamers for shooters with the same idea.

Previous writers who questioned the use of a short action have it right. A bullet of the BC needed for long range work will protrude deeply into the body of the case in order to feed through the mag--this takes up powder capacity.

More importantly, because a lot of the ogive is within the neck of the case, the bullet is a looong way from the rifling, thereby handicapping accuracy. Get a long action and make it easier to achieve your goal.

Dave Manson

Thank you.

7mmSAUM in a Long Action - give you space for long heavy bullets

Jay