Hi Lever Gunners

I have an itch that needs to be scratched.

I want to build a DG Lever gun.

What will the best base be from which to start the project and what cartridge will give the best results.

I would like to hit 2100fps with a 450gr FN solid.
Which lever gun can do this and be functional and trouble free.

45 or 50 cal, but 45 cal bullets are more freely available here in SA. I shoot a 458 Lott bolt gun at present so that base is covered.

Looking forward to hearing from you
Kind regards
Ian

1871 winchester caliber .348 , Re Barrel it to another caliber , or a 1886 winchester in 45/90 Uberti

Thanks for the input, how do they handle pressure and cartridge length etc?

Most of the claimed DG lever guns are pretty meek IMO..I know of some that killed buff but the writers left out how far it went before it expired or referred to it only if you read between the lines.. and the further, a buff for instance, can travel adds to his ability to getcha. A lion is even more concern IMO..

However I suspect one of the new Win. 95s might be used with the 458 Win.,9.3x62, 9.3x64 and perhaps even the new 375 and 416 Ruger, that might be deserving of some investigation...

I also believe a few have built around the 50-120 and 50-110s on Win. 86s and they should be pretty potent???.

Dangerous game can be buff, hippo, lion and elephant to start with and there is a lot of difference there as to what caliber is suitable.

I would say my bottom line would be a 286 to 300 gr. bullet at 2500 FPS, a 400 gr. bullet at 2100, and a 45 cal. bullet at 2000 to 2100..something on that order..

That would be my choice.

Ian,
thanks for bringing this up,I am interested in this as well,getting a 400 gr upto 2100 fps is no problem in a lever action,my 71 in 475 Turnbull will shoot a 400 solid no problem at 2100,& I think I can maybe push it to 2000 fps with a 450 gr solid,but have not tried this yet,my win 1886 in 45/90 easily shoots 400 gr softs at 2100 as well,,I am awaiting delivery of a 71 converted to 450 Alaskan shortly & will play with it to see what It will do.
The problem with a heavier bullet is the length of the bullet,it takes up too much room in the case,thus reducing case capacity,the caliber that I think has the most capacity is the 50-110,it would be interesting to hear from members who are shooting the 50-110 & see what their observations are.

BLR in 458,416 Taylor or 416 ruger

I have a custom Reeder Alaskan built on a Marlin Guide gun with an 18" heavy barrel in his 450GNR, which is a 50 Alaskan necked down with a short neck and it is plenty for DG. Could be better in a 71 or 1886 though and a little longer barrel won't hurt either. I stayed away from the 50 cal since it is a bit harder to get to feed reliably with the blunter nosed bullets and the extra weight up front. Just my opinion.

The BLR sounds interesting....never gave it a thought. Anybody have one to show?

Check out this thread elsewhere on AR. There's a pic of a 416 Ruger BLR about halfway down the page.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...8721043/m/8261035781

Hunt the box

With our traditional lever guns you are going to be pushing things hard to hit 2100 fps with any 450, in .458, .474, .500, .510.

I run the 50 B&M Alaskans, .500 caliber, and will be taking one for buffalo/hippo, plus, in July this year.

Forget a Marlin action, at max 45000 PSI in .500 a 450 gets to around 1850 fps before maxing pressure out, and begins to lock the action.

A M71 does some better, but far short of the magic 2100 fps.

It might be possible to close the gap some with a much longer barrel, 22 inches plus, but even then I think you will fall short, you can get 2000 fps.

Next, you got to have proper bullets designed for the lever guns. Just any .458, .474, .500, .510 bullet is just not going to work in these actions. Nose profile must be much shorter to run through these, than bolt guns, so yet another limitation, and also by having a shorter nose profile, you eat up case capacity.

Bullets with the proper designs can do the job easy, but will be lighter in weight. I will be using the BBW#13s from CEB & North Forks, we designed specifically for the 50 B&M Alaskan in .500 caliber. I have a 405 #13 Solid at 2120 fps, its matching 365 NonCon HP at 2175 fps, and a 400 North Fork Premium Soft at 2100 fps. All my guns are 18 inch barrels.

Some of the non traditional lever guns, such as the BLR, I am just not familiar with, so I really can't say what those can or cannot do.

Michael

Thanks for the info guys.
Michael, what action do you rate as the best starting point for the 500B&M
Cheers
Ian

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Thanks for the info guys.
Michael, what action do you rate as the best starting point for the 500B&M
Cheers
Ian

I like the M71 action. These are a bit more expensive with the beginning platform, and I would recommend a used browning plain jane M71, or Winchester has a new M71 out as well that would probably be a good platform to begin with, although I have not done one of the new Winchesters yet.

The Marlin is less dollars up front. Has some advantages, such as putting a scope on top of the receiver, a big advantage to me in particular. Disadvantage is not quite as strong as the M71, probably about 5000 PSI difference in the two, which only equates to around a 100 fps or so.

Really both platforms are very suitable, both with advantage, and disadvantage. Deciding factor is what you tend to favor or need out of either..

Michael

Thanks Michael

Out here a big factor will be what we can get in the country.
We get a lot of Marlin Guide guns coming up here and very seldom a guy has imported a BLR or M71.

Lever guns are still catching on here in SA.

I will go shopping and get back to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Thanks Michael

Out here a big factor will be what we can get in the country.
We get a lot of Marlin Guide guns coming up here and very seldom a guy has imported a BLR or M71.

Lever guns are still catching on here in SA.

I will go shopping and get back to you.

I understand completely.. I have a friend over there now with a Marlin 50 B&M Alaskan, he is a PH, not using it as a PH rifle however..... He loves his, shot a big eland I think last month with it.

Marlin is a good platform, and big advantage of mounting a scope proper..... And, in the end, that 100 fps really don't make much of a difference when using the right bullets....

Michael

quote:

I have a friend over there now with a Marlin 50 B&M Alaskan, he is a PH, not using it as a PH rifle however

Any chance he will sell it?
Short of that where is he based, I would like to go and see it if at all possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:

quote:

I have a friend over there now with a Marlin 50 B&M Alaskan, he is a PH, not using it as a PH rifle however

Any chance he will sell it?
Short of that where is he based, I would like to go and see it if at all possible.

No, I doubt you could get that rifle, Org is pretty well attached to it.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...43/m/9111029801/p/56

Above is page 56 of the B&M thread on Big Bores.. Closer to the bottom you will see Org and his Eland, and 50 B&M AK. Just below that you see him reply, JGB.. You can PM him and ask about it.

On several posts forward we are talking about the lever guns a bit, and some photos. Of course you can find more about it here also.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid.../50-B-M-Alaskan.html

Michael

Thanks Michael
How did you go about getting a reamer to Org or was this one built in the US

Did you ever try and build your 500 MDM into a lever gun

Hunting the box

Orgs rifle was built here, he imported..........

500 MDM runs way too much pressure for the lever guns, and its a rimless case, and way too long. Its home is a Win M70..

Michael

Thanks Michael

I will try and contact Org and see how he went about getting the rifle in etc. and what sort of budget I need to get together.

If I wanted to have it built here, what would I need to get from your side?
Thanks
ian

Michael

What are your thoughts on the previous suggestion of the 416 Ruger in a lever gun?

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Michael

What are your thoughts on the previous suggestion of the 416 Ruger in a lever gun?

I am just not very familiar with a BLR..... If it can be done reliably in 416 Ruger, that would be an incredible combination. Not sure what one has to do with a BLR to get that to work properly. Maybe a future project for one of the B&Ms.....

Michael

Here's a video of the BLR 416. PM the guy who posted the pic in the other thread. He can enlighten you to the guns operation. I think there is another guy on here who goes by joester that had one built as well. I want one and I'm not even sure why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFV_iE1vm1k

I noted in the .416 video that 3 shots were fired from the magazine. The original BLR magazines (in .300 mag) in my .375 BLR only hold 2 of the fatter rounds- - a 3rd round depresses the springs too much and magazine won't "feed". So unless the original magazines are re-worked, I've only got a 3-shooter (1 in the tube w/2 below) I'd like that 4th round for DG hunting. I'll be having my mags worked on soon...

Joester, what other mods were made to the rifle and are you happy with it?

My gun started as a basic takedown stainless/synthetic BLR in .300 Win.mag. My gunsmith added a Shilen barell and fined tuned the takedown for accuracy. He also added a mercury compensator in the stock (this not only tames recoil but really balances the rifle). He did a trigger job but I had it even more fine-tuned by a BLR trigger specialist I found on another forum: Neil Jones in Saegertown Pa. My BLR trigger, at 3 lbs., is better than many of my bolt guns, I didn't think it was possible. Needless to say, I REALLY like my BLR conversion. Its MOA accurate, even after many takedowns/re-assemblies. I drilled some javelina in Texas w/ 300 gr. Hornady solids and this summer will introduce it to cape buffalo.

Sounds like a great gun, could you post a pic for us?

I have posted a photo previously on this thread...

My solution to your question was two modern Miroku made Winchester rifles, the 1895 in .405 WCF and the 1886 in .45-90 WCF.Both have done their job in Africa.
The 1886 took buffalo, leopard, and ele with custom loaded 450 Kodiak bullets at 2150 fps and the 1895 a buffalo with handloaded 400 grain Woodleigh softs and solids at 2100 fps took a buffalo which was reported here - see link below:i.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...701040671#2701040671

If you want more information, please PM me for details.

I would use the new 1886 or a 71. I would pick the 71 as my first choice! Browning makes a great action with a coil spring main spring. I like them over the USRAC guns and they all have a small fire pin. The 71 does not have the S hook like the 86 but not needed if the OAL is 2.650 or longer and the OAL needs to be limited to about 2.750.
As for the caliber I pick 475 Turnbull! No really it is in the bullet not the caliber. The bullet is the most important part of the round. Solids need a flat point like the Barnes solid for the Turnbull or others, a wide MEPLAT. As for the pressure a 400 gr about 2100 or a 450 at 2000 FPS is going to be about 42,000PSI. Getting higher than that you can get into case issues as it fills the chamber completetly and if shooting a 86 that has not had the vertical locking bolts fit it may/will lock the lever up Easy fix just will need to addressed with heavy loads to see if it needs to be.

450 Alaskan will give the same velocity as the 475 Turnbull at same pressure. As well as the 50 Alaskan or the 50 EX, but the 50 EX has issues because of the OAL and the bullets out there and the fact it was really made for black and not smokeless powder.

I would pick either the 450 Alaskan or the 475 Turnbull in a Browning 71 for my gun to hunt DG. IMHO

OH YEA the comb on the 71 was built by some jack ass. It is about 3/8- 1/2" to high and the front edge need to come back 5/8 - 3/4" so it feels and looks like the 86. THAT is why they kick you in the cheek and really seem to hurt you when you shoot them.

Doug,

Do you guys build rifles on the BLR?? The 416 Ruger in the BLR seems like a very attractive option for buffalo hunting in Africa.

no

A BLR ?????

Read this first:

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=20788

I begin to see the .45-90WCF as THE biggame caliber for the 86/71 platform..
http://forums.accuratereloadin...8721043/m/8271036581

.450grain @ +2100 ft/sec deliver the message.

Doug is right in regarding the old .50WCF. Lack of good bullets puts this nice round in the backseat a little. Woodleigh do make a 500grain SP. I do however still have a "thing" for the .50WCF. If one doesn´t include elephants, I am sure the fiftyexpress could do al lot of things to many "things".

Doug!.

How is the Miroku 1886 vs the Miroku M71?, Is that the same frame where the pistolgrip has been contoured?.

For those interested in bullets for DG, Woodleigh make their Hydrostatic solids in 375, 45 and 50 cal for use in leverguns. They will also make up special sizes, as long as you are prepared to buy a run of them.

http://www.woodleighbullets.co...tatically-stabilised

Thanks JFE for the Woodleigh bullet reference.
That looks like a good substitute for a North Fork or Barnes if they are not available down under.

I'm not saying the 50 is not a good gun just that there are more bullets available for the 45 and 475 calibers is all.

Well I can say that I have shot Doug Turnbull's personal 475 lever. Several dozen rounds.

Not only did it fit me perfectly, and handle very well, it was very easy, and very comfortable, very accurate to shoot, even at longish ranges.

I was impressed. IF I was a lever action freek, I would definately have one.

It is one of the best rifles I have ever fired.

I have an original Winchester M71 that was converted to 50-110 several years ago. It went home with Doug at this year's SCI Convention. It came back with the feeding issues resolved, and his color case hardening. 30" full octagon barrel and full magazine.

.45 and .475 diameter bullets may expand, but my .510 diameter bullets aren't going to shrink...

Guys:

I want to preface my remarks by saying I have not been to Africa nor have I hunted dangerous game with a lever gun. However, I would like to suggest that with today bullets, you don't need as much velocity to hunt heavy game with a lever. I'd bet that a 45/70 or a 450 Marlin with a 400 grain Woodleigh Hydro in the tube and a couple of 400 grain CEB#13 in the mag all running about 1870 fps will give you all the killing power you need on anything short of elephant. Like Michael says, it's the bullet that does all the work.