HI,

I dug through some old post and found this. I knew there had to be something about this and I also now thing I would go with what Dphillips has done so I E-mailed him and look forward for more information on this.By the way we should put this on the Africa forum ,check out some of the post,Kev

HI,

"with the 400 grain Woodleigh's, pressures are right at 60,000 psi. Matter of fact, I haven't worked up a 400 grain load that gives 2,100 fps yet with my 22" barrel. I've broken 2,000 fps, but not 2,100 and am not likely to try. I've have"

I found this to be very,very interesting. He is getting great numbers with a 400 grain bullet,out of a 22 inch barrel, not bad and I think you rifle is beautiful,wood is great sights, it looks like a African hunting rifle,Kev

Hello Kev,
I haven't got your email yet, but I'll let everyone know that my load development for the 411 has slowed down considerably. Right before sheep season last year, I had a massive case failure, it everything points to bad brass at this time. No damage was done to the rifle, and it headspaced perfectly. The failure occured horizontally around the midsection of the brass. Upon sectioning a few cases, it appears they are really thin compared to Remington 35 Whelen cases (which is what I'll probably switch to). Everything sounded fine, the bullet hit the target fine, the rifle felt fine, but when I extracted the case, only the rear 1/2 came out. I did a chamber cast to remove the front portion.

I just spoke with Mike Brady at North Fork this past week and it sounds like he will be making the production run of the 360 grain .411" bullets this week in limited quantities. I ordered a few boxes and will resume loading once those come in.

Right now I have quite a few 350 grain X bullets, 350 grain Swift A Frames, some 300 grain Hawks, and 400 grain Woodleighs loaded. We're getting quite a flurry of snow this weekend and doesn't look like I'll be shooting much for another week or so.

As for the recoil, it just isn't that bad. A bit more "roll" or push than my 338, but is nowhere near as sharp. Not even close to being in the same class as 500 Jeffery I won here at AR!!!

HI,

Thanks for the information, how is the accuracy?,and what sights do you think would over all be best for DG, ghost ringand a front post or the express sights you have?.And how many rounds do you get into the magazine?I also think a 360 grain NF would be great and I hope to see any information on the fps?.I have heard of some problems with brass, and it has been with 30-06, I think the 35 whelen is the way to go, it is easier to reshape and from all I have seen so far stronger.Thanks for you help, also I think it would work well on any game, and that inclues the great cape buff,Kev

I haven't tested for accuracy yet. Let me qualify that and say that I'm still fireforming the brass. The brass I started with is straight-walled cylinder brass for the '06 and its variants. Basically all it requires is to run through a full length sizing die, leaving the shoulder a bit long and applying a slight crush fit to the chamber. This ensures the brass will headspace correctly on the first firing. The first run through the dies leaves the shoulder a little rounded, fireforming crisps up the shoulder.

I haven't shot much at all from the bench, but have gotten a little less than 1" groups at 50 yds and about 1 1/4" groups at 100 yds. I've fired about 12 rounds from the bench, so that isn't any real test. The other 58 rounds I've fired have been off hand.

As for sights on a rifle like this, I think it depends on where you will use the rifle most. To me, in the alder thickets and spruce forests of AK, the express v's are much faster to use and are easier to see in the dark timber than a peep site. That may just be me, though. I don't have to worry about a drop of water covering up the peep hole either.

Mike has the velocity working range of his bullets listed on his website. This bullet was originally conceived through Mike's conversations with Fred Zeglin, though I suspect he will make sure this bullet works for the new 400 H&H also.

HI,

I got an E-mail back from him about the 360grain NF, he said he is looking at around 2,200 fps with the 411Hawh and 95,Kev

Kev, I might add that, typically, I'm more accurate with a fine peep sight than with an open rear sight. So, a fold down peep or even a tang sight for a rifle like this can be used at longer ranges. Fold it neatly out of the way for the thick stuff or in areas where fast shooting may be required, then if a longer shot is required and you have the time to use it, just pop it up. Least that's my plan.

Richie Rich I am interested in hearing more on your conversion to 45/90 in your lever gun. I have just purchased a 1886 EL repro in 45/70 and am thinking of converting to either 45/90 0r 50-110 with the 45/90 being the cheaper more practical conversion. I have been thinking about what velocity one might get with the 45/90 with good starline brass with the woodleigh 480 gr RN (nose flattened to work in tube mag) I am thinking you would get about 1900 fps ??

HI,

DPHILLIPS, I thought about the sights and I like the way the express look,front is solid next two fold down leaf sights , but the big problem with them is they are set up for a particular weight bullet.So it is much harder to change bullet weights with them, with the ghost ring peep, they can be adjusted to different bullet weights,I think the express look better although,Kev

I would go with the traditional double rifle of large caliber for the really big African game.

I would take along the 1895 Winchester in .405 Winchester for leopard and lion.

If it's Penetration your after,this one in a 45-70 or .450 Marlin penetrates like there is no tomorrow.Again,I am not saying a levergun is the write choice but this 550 grain .458 bullet does penetrate very well.Jayco.

If I wanted a pure dangerous game rifle, I would simply rebarrel a Win. M-95 (Browning) to a 9.3x62 with a 26 inch barrel and sling a 320 gr. Woodliegh at 2350 FPS...I have neatly killed Cape Buffalo with that load and with the 286 gr. Nosler at 2520 FPS it makes a heck of an elk rifle....

In fact that is exactly what I am going to do, but in a carbine form..I will restock it with a carbine style stock and a 22 inch barrel...that should be a nice gun...so that will be my next project, now I need a used Browning M-95 rifle...

Ray, you and others need not encourage me to think about any new projects....you all have a lot to answer for in regards to the abuse of my bank account

Ray,

I have absolutely NO PROBLEMS getting 2080 fps with a 400gr Woodleigh soft or solid out of my 405 Winchester M1895. This is with a 24" tube, by the way. The pressure records at ~ 58000 psi, which is well within the pressure limits of the rifle/action (which is designed for the 270 Winchester at 62,000 psi).

At 2185 fps the primers craters pressure here is ~ 68000 psi. So that clearly explains the primers don't it.

The only advantage I can see with the 411 Hawk is the fact that the case being about .12" shorter will allow one to load the 400 Woodleigh to the factory cut cannelure. I have to cut new cannelures on my Woodleighs so I can crimp in the cannelure and fit into my rifle's magazine box.

So as far as I am concernedm the M1895 loaded with 400 grain Woodleighs is most definitely a Dangerous Game capable rifle. Feeding and extraction are FLAWLESS, by the way!

Recoil is a most likely a tad harsh for the average shooter, but so is every big bore rifle making this kinda energy and weighing only 8 pounds +/-.

Scott

HI,

MR.Atkinson,I have a browning 95 coming in was kind of planning a 411 Hawk, but I think your idea would be great. One problme who does this kind of converation and who do you plan on having it done for you?,Kev

HI,


Scott, talk to the people at z-hat customs and a 411 Hawk will push a 400 grain woodeigh to 2150 fps,that is out of a 24 inch barrel,Kev

HI,

After looking at the numbers,I think the 411 Hawk still would be better than a 9.3x62. It would not be to much better as far ME and weight of bullet but is still a harder hitter than a 9.3x62, but maybe the 9.3 will shoot alittle flatter?either one would still be nice to have. The 9.3 x62 does have a wide selection of bullets and brass so that would also make a nice choice,Kev

Kev,



The 405 Winchester will to. The problem is at what pressure!



The 411 Hawk

Total Case volume of 75.2 grains of water



With 400 gr Woodleigh useful case volume of 56.1 grains of water.



The 405 Winchester

Total case volume of 75.8 grains of water



With 400 gr Woodleigh usefule case of volume is 53.5 grains of water.



So the 411 Hawk has a useful case volume advantage of 2.5 grains of water. This equates to approximately 1.1 grains of IMR4895 (to keep pressures equal).



What all means is this. If you load the 411 Hawk and the 405 Winchester both to 62,000 psi (limit of the M1895 Winchester action) and are shooting 400 grains Woodleighs, the muzzle velocities would be:

405 Win - 2112 fps

411 Hawk - 2121 fps



A little reference material for you (cause I don't trust the ballistics that Z-Hat has on their website concerning the 411 Hawk ballistics)



By massaging my 405 Winchester brass (running oversized expanders through it) I can increase my case capacity to 78.5 grains of water and my useful case capacity, with a 400gr Woodleigh, to 56.4 grains of water.



Taking this "special" brass I can achieve these loads:



Hornady brass - tweaked

CCI200 primer

400 gr Woodleigh soft point

56.2 grains of IMR4895 (110% compressed charge to the point that the lead points of bullets flatten out!)



Muzzle velocity - 2087 fps average of 10 shot string!

Pressure is relatively low at ~ 53000 psi.



IMR 3031 seems to be the best performing powder with the 400 gr Woodleigh. You can achieve slight powder column compression and keep pressures down below the design limit of 62,000 psi, while getting the speed up to 2100 fps. This is not the case with Rel 7.



For instance:



47 grains of Rel 7 will give you 2100+ fps at a pressure of 62000 psi. THIS IS A MAXIMUM LOAD in my rifle (almost certainly in ANY rifle)!!!



For equivalent pressure, IMR3031 will slightly better this.



IMR 4895 runs out of steam, plain and simple. I haven't tried Rel 10, but I doubt it would be much better. Besides that, I detest 110+% compressed loads!! They are STUPID!



So the moral of the story is; the 411 Hawk and the 405 Winchester are ballistic twins. They are both capable of launching 400gr Woodleighs to 2100 fps SAFELY. I would not recommend exceeding the 2100 fps mark, however. I load my hunting rounds to 2080 fps to drop the pressure another couple 1000 psi or so.



Scott

HI,


Both are good rounds, I just stated what they,z-hat told me. They said 2150 fps with a 400 grain out of a 24 inch barrel.I believe I would use either one about anywhere any feel fairly well about both,Kev

"So as far as I am concernedm the M1895 loaded with 400 grain Woodleighs is most definitely a Dangerous Game capable rifle"

I think the same thing Scott, great SD, and the BC is not bad either,Kev

The .450 Marlin can throw 400 grain Swift A-Frames at 2,021 fps with only 40,900 PSI with 43,500 being the SAAMI on it out of a 24 inch barrel.It can easily get to 2100 fps with a 24 inch barrel.The 45-70 with it's larger case capacity could do it easier with a tad less pressure.2100 fps out of a 24 inch barrel with a premium 400 grain bullet is easily achievable in the .450/45-70 type cartridges in the 1895 actions.The problem here is know one thinks of the 450/45-70 in a 24 inch toob.It works.

Just my opinion.Jayco

Jayco,

The issue with the 45-70 versus the 405 Winchester is all about penetration.

The 405 Winchester loaded with a 400 gr Woodleigh at 2100 fps possesses the following momentum density:
337.08 pound / inch second

The 45-70 loaded with a 400 gr bullet at the whopping speed of 2150 fps possesses the following momentum density:
265.92 pound / inch second

The 405 Winchester possesses 21% more momentum density. What all this physics means is this: The 405 Winchester will out-penetrate the 45-70 even though the bullets weights are the same and the 45-70's bullet is going 50 fps faster. This is of even greater significance when solid bullets (non-deforming) are used!

If one wanted to achieve equivalent penetration with the 400 grain load in the 45-70, one would need to get the muzzle velocity up from 2150 fps to 2609 fps !!!!

Sorry, but the truth is the 45-70 will never be able to compete even up with the more classic DG cartridges, or those cartridges which can duplicate the ballistics of the old DG rounds (like the 405 Winchester shooting a 400 gr pill at 2100 fps).

Scott

Aaah-Another one that believes in numbers over actual results.I really don't care about Africa and the 45-70.I only was stateing published info.I have seen numerous Elk killed with calibers from 22-250 on up.The 357 Mag pistol even got one right in front of me.I just don't believe in some numbers but I do believe in results.It is amazing what an experienced hunter and shooter can achieve with a lessor caliber.
Numbers mean nothing.results out of experience do.

Scotts-Nothing personal I just don't buy numbers.I count on experience from those that have been there done that.Seen to many Elk killed by the little .270.

Best of luck.Jayco

Jayco,

I suggest you start believing in numbers! I also suggest you start acting like a mature adult and quit picking fights, with people who are not trying to fight with you!! I am by no means an enemy of the 45-70!!!

You will notice that NOWHERE did I say that your 45-70 load would not kill what you shot with it!!!! I simply stated the FACT that if the measure of performance is penetration , your 45-70 will lose against the 405 Winchester. This has to do with physics, it is that simple. I am not talking about so and so's killing power equation, but the real, honest to God, general definition of penetration. Which is by the way, a projectile will penetrate as long as the shear stress imparted by the projectile to it's target is greater than the shear strength of the target. Shear stress is force divided by area or F/A. The change in momentum with respect to time is FORCE. If you want to act like a moron and argue that the laws of physics bend to your will, go ahead I really don't care!

The alternative is to admit the facts are the facts and get on with your life. I would much rather we be friends than enemies.

By the way, just because one cartridge will out penetrate another doesn't mean SHIT! The so-called experts that worship at the alter of penetration, show their combined ignorance, as over-penetration is a bigger problem that under-penetration in almost every conceiveable scenario!!!!!!!

By the way, the 270 Winchester is one penetrating son-of-a-bitch!

For the record, I have seen many Roosevelt elk dropped with a single 170 gr flat point from a M1894 Winchester (30-30). I myself have killed 3 Roosevelt elk with a M1896 Springfield shooting 220gr round noses at a whopping 2200 fps (30-40 Krag). The bullet need only make it to something vital, that is all the penetration one needs, anything more is simply wasted energy (and ego ).

I can tell you this too, from experience, the 416 Rigby is an awesome elk killer. Far more impressive than the aforementioned cartridges, or the 300 Weatherby, 7mm Rem mag, 300 Win mag, etc. I can also tell you from experience that any species of buffalo is, FAR in a way, tougher than an elk. I have never seen an elk able to handle more than two 416 Rigby rounds in the boiler room and stay on his feet. I have seen numerous buffalo handle that and more!

This year, God willing and the river don't rise, we shall see how the big 500 takes out an elk.

The 405 Winchester has a date with bear, I am a thinking.

Scott

Scott-If you believe in numbers-Your right.I don't and don't knock those that do.I do believe in results that numbers sometimes don't support.If you can compare to almost 40 years of logging and the fun that came with being in the heart of Idaho's best Elk country then tell me how you have the advantage over experience?I spend more time in one year hunting than most do in a life time.

Scott-After looking again your from Oregon with an attitude.

Tell me your experiences and how old are you?I am 55 and logged for 38 years.Never a year without a deer and only a couple without Elk.
I also have four boy's from 36 down to my baby that is 14 and 6ft 2 and 220.So I am game for your games.Jayco.

Your turn.Jayco.

Jayco,



Oregon, where did you get that from? I have never lived in Oregon. Regarding experience. Well, physics has been around since the very beginning of time, so there are a few eons. The various militaries of the world have used the principal of "momentum density" since at least the late 1860s for penetration calculations in armor plate. These calculations are VALID and have been proven, as I said, numerous times in the last 145 years! If you have proof that all this empirical (that means gathered from physical experiments not merely calculations) has been either wrong all along or faked I suggest you contact the media. You may find yourself a wealthy man.



By the way, which will penetrate deeper:



1.) 45-70 shooting a 440 grain soft point bullet at 1760 fps?

-or-

2.) 12 gauge shotgun shooting a 1 ounce (437.5 grains) 0.727" diameter foster slug at 1760 fps?



The reason the 45-70 beats the 12 gauge is the same reason the 405 Winchester beats the 45-70.



As I said earlier, if you want to believe gravity doesn't exist, or that the earth is flat, or that the earth is the center of the universe, or that the 45-70 is the most bestest penetrator in existence, that is fine with me. I only ask that you do not make an idiot out of yourself by saying that these fantasies of yours are all true.



Again, I never once said that the 45-70 won't kill, and kill very effectively!



All I stated is the simple truth. Sorry if you aren't able/willing to understand that.



By the way, if you have shot one deer a year for 38 years then I have shot more deer than you. As a matter of fact, I shot 30 deer in one week once. Hooray for me! Killed all of them with 190gr Sierra Match Kings fired from a 30-06. Everyone of them died quickly. Does that make the SMK a good hunting bullet? I personally don't think so, do you?



Personally, if I had a M1886 in 45-70 I think I would make it into a 45-90. I could then get 480 grain Woodleighs to 2080 fps and duplicate the good ol' 450 NE.



Now why are you "fighting" with me again? I actually feel we are on the same side. Afterall, I don't think the Mauser is half as good as many of the "experts" think it is.



Scott

Scott-I only talk experience.Take your theories to someone else that believes.I don't.Tell the Elk it won't work or even the Buffalo the 45-70 don't kill.
If Mike Tyson tells you how to fight,will that work for you?Doubt it.Different strokes for differet folks.Experience counts, not ballistics.How in the world did the old Mtn Men survive without the guidence of ballisticts and with black powder?

By Scott.Jayco.

Jayco,



Your comments are both illogical and senseless! I say this because you are making no f...ing sense!!



Explain this comment of yours to me, specifically how it applies to me!

Quote:

---

Tell the Elk it won't work or even the Buffalo the 45-70 don't kill.

---

I bold faced this in a previous post. This quote was repeated from a post earlier than that!

Quote:

---

Again, I never once said that the 45-70 won't kill, and kill very effectively!

---

By they way, I have killed three 1100 pound steers with a 22 LR and one with a 22 Short. What does that mean?



By the way, since you claim to have extensve experience, would you mind sharing it with me. I have hunted with cartridges like: 416 Rigby, 458 Win mag, 460 Weatherby mag, 505 Gibbs, 500 A Square, 500 AHR, 30-40 Krag, 300 Weatherby mag, 300 Win mag, 30-06, 22 LR, and the 12 gauge slug.



The FACT is that the 458 Win mag killed better shooting a 405gr Remington flat point at 2240 fps than it did shooting 405 gr hard cast flat points at 2080 fps! That is from from FIRST HAND experience not magazines.



Also, please share with us your 45-70 load for the 400 grain bullet @ 2100 fps you shoot in your lever gun.



Specifically tell me:

Brass

Bullet

Primer

Powder type and quantity

Was velocity chronographed or guessed upon based off of publish bull shit load manual data! (I bet guessed at if the load exists at all).



Sorry, nothing personal, but your comments have been, as I stated earlier, illogical and senseless! Besides that your not going to get a 45-70 to launch 400 grain pills at 2100+ fps with a chamber pressure of only, what did you say, 42000 psi. A more realistic pressure would be 54,000 psi.



Scott

Now... Jayco I am confused about a few of your posts... In one posts you said... "I only was stateing published info" , but then went on to say... "Aaah-Another one that believes in numbers over actual results." and between the two, you mentioned... "I only talk experience." . Now which is it, and are these statements related, or did you just forget what you were saying?


Also you had said...
"Tell me your experiences and how old are you?I am 55 and logged for 38 years.Never a year without a deer and only a couple without Elk." "I also have four boy's from 36 down to my baby that is 14 and 6ft 2 and 220.So I am game for your games.Jayco."


Why do you believe that a person�s age and vocation has anything to do with whether they effectively UNDERSTOOD and retained all the EXPERIANCE they supposedly went through, or that the number of years equated to any relevant experience to the topic at hand even? And what does your "Boys" age and stature have to do with anything?

Quite frankly your posts make little sense to me.


One of the problems I have with the 45-70 is that it doesnt kill very fast.

Not here to pick a fight just want to share another point of view. In actual field experiance with game I take the (John Pondoro)Taylor Knockout Value (TKO) into consideration. TKO = mass x velocity x caliber divided by 7000 (grains in a lb.) Here's the TKO of both loads.

The 405 Win. 400 gr bullet at 2100 fps = TKO 49
The 45-70 - 400 gr bullet at 2150 fps = TKO 56

On paper the 170 30/30 is superior in almost every way to the 240 grain 44 magnum including energy, sectional density, etc. The exception is the TKO.

In over 30 years of hunting wild boar using both the 170 gr 30/30 load, and 240 gr 44 mag load the 44 mag has without exception dropped every pig i've shot some over 300 pounds with one shot. I've had to track pigs shot with the 30/30 on several exceptions sometimes with multiple shots in them. The 44 Mag rates higher in the TKO which in my experiance makes all the differance.

As far as 45/70 vs 405 I'd feel confident with either cartridge, i'd like one of each

Hawaiian_Hunter,

The argument against lever action rifles, as made by the bolt action / double rifle totting gentlemen, is that there is NO lever action rifle cartridge capable of producing the equivalent (here is the KEY word) PENETRATION of their bolt action / double rifle dangerous game cartridges.

The 405 Winchester can meet the performance of the grand old double rifle dangerous game cartridges - 450/400 3" and 450/400 3 1/4"! That is my point, the 45-70 cannot do it, no way, no how! A 45-90 loaded to 55000 psi can come very close to matching the 450 NE 3 1/4", though.

Interesting you should mention Mr. Taylors "number". Mr Taylor's number states this for an 8 bore.
1250 grain slug
Velocity - 400 fps
Bore diameter .84"
Taylor Knock Down number - 60

So it MUST be better than either of the aforementioned cartridges, right.

I can tell you this from first hand experience, am 8 bore shooting a 1235 gr bullet at a whopping 600 fps will not bury said bullet into a rail road tie at 30'! A 12 gauge slug guns is INFINITELY more impressive. So Taylor's number is a bogus metric, always has been, always will be. Taylor dreamed up his little number to impress people with the potency of the 600 NE, a cartridge which suffered (and still does) a reputation for marginal penetration on ele skulls! A 577 NE or the 500 Jeffery, both with lower Taylor knock down values, are both well documented as superior penetrators of ele skulls. You wanna know why? Both the 577 NE and the 500 Jeffery have greater momentum density than the 600 NE (particularly the Jeffery 600 NE load which is a 900 gr solid at 1850 fps).

Momentum density will tell you how deeply a projectile will penetrate.

Energy density will tell you how quickly a projectile will dump it's energy to the target, i.e. decelerate.

One last little giggle dealing with your vaunted Taylor knock down number.

12 gauge shotgun.
1.25 oz slug
Velocity - 1550 fps
Taylor Knock Down Number - 88

Bump that muzzle velocity up to 1700 fps and Mr Taylor's number says a Foster style lead slug would easily penetrate 13" of ele skull! Now if you believe that, well I suggest you seek professional help, IMMEDIATELY.

Scott

PS I have dropped hogs with a single shot from a 22LR. Does that mean that the 22 LR is the equivalent of your 44 magnum, I don't think so.

Scott-Lets take that key word Penetration and not use numbers but actually test it on media.This is one reason I don't believe in all the numbers that are out there.Some are valid and others aren't.

http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/penetration_test.htm

It is amazing what the 45-70 with a 550 grain Hardcast Bullet can do.It defies all the numbers.It just does.Again I am not saying the 45-70 with any bullet should be your choice for DG,but penetrate it does for sure.I personally would choose a .416-.458 for Africa if I was going.

Jayco,

Thank you for the load data. 40,000 CUP, by the way, is 47000 psi, in a 45-70 (just to let you know that CUP and psi are not exactly the same, and it is even grayer than that as the relationship between CUP and psi changes for almost every single cartridge).

I have seen the penetration test you sited before. It, like most of the other penetration tests, suffers from a myriad of technical issues. The single largest being that plywood, like wet or dry newsprint, is a piss poor substitute for flesh and bone. Hunting bullets are DESIGNED to penetrate flesh and bone, NOT plywood, newspaper, etc.

I do not mean to scare/bore you with a great deal of technical mumbo-jumbo. Let's just say that the issue deals with fluid mechanics and the "aero"dynamics of a bullet's flight. Essentially, plywood and/or newsprint (especially wet) both amplify the yaw rate of a bullet much more than animal flesh. This yaw (which is fish-tailing in a car) causes the bullet to veer off track. Yawing of the bullet is due to a rapid (nearly instaneous in the case of a bullet) dramatic change in the moment equilibrium between the bullet's center of mass (CG) and the bullet's center of pressure. This change is due primarily to sudden changes in penetrated media density.

The flat nose design, which is a must in a tube fed lever gun, is the least effected bullet design when it comes to yaw induced by density changes in the penetration media. So it is ABSOLUTELY no surprise that a flat pointed bullet achieves superior straight-line penetration in plywood or wet newspaper, relative to a spire point or round nose.

Believe me, load a brass/bronze flat point solid in the 500 NE 3" (570gr at 2100 fps) and it will kick the snot out of the 45-70's 530gr FP at 1550 fps.

Everything you have said is readily predicted by the computation (numbers). Sorry, but nothing you have said or sited is a surprise!

I have found that wet sand or packed earth (as in a long existing berm or hillside) provides the most accurate penetration test media for head shots on buffalo. The measured penetration, as well as the bullet's expanded diameter are almost identical to the results obtained from actual animals shot with the same load! Typical expansion diameter for a 570 gr Woodleigh soft point (.51" diameter bullet with a muzzle velocity 2340 fps)recovered from a bison shot head-on through the skull is 1.43" (avg). The depth of penetration is 28" (avg). When the identical load was shot into a long existing earthen berm, the bullet expanded to 1.47" and penetrated on average 27". Hard cast 405gr bullet (muzzle velocity 2000 fps) shot from a 458 Win mag into the same berm (fresh area not already shot into) penetrated 23", and probably could have been loaded up and shot again. 570 grain Woodleigh solids (muzzle velocity 2490 fps) shot into the berm penetrated 59" on average (oh yeah a back hoe does help). Penetration was practically straight line, just as has been exhibited in animals shot. From that test it is quite flear that a 45-70 shooting the 405gr hard cast could easily "blow a bison's brains out" so to speak. The 45-70; however, could not generate the roughly 4" diameter wound channel that the big 500 does!! That is the REAL advantage of the big African stopping rifle cartridges, the massive trauma they deliver to the target (when shooting soft point that is).

Regarding penetration tests. I would love to go shooting with you. If you haven't shot an 8 pound lever action, which is pushin' a 400 gr pill at 2100 fps, you need to. I think most shooters would find it simply, well invigorating! Personally, I think it pales next to a true stopper.

I think in all actuality we agree far more than we disagree. I suspect you are somewhat shy of the numbers, and I don't blame you. I see many posters on this site spewing about this or that. They are usually WRONG. A properly loaded 45-70 (I would still rather have a M1886 in 45-90) is a very capable killer! My comments about the 405 Winchester and it's capability with the 400 gr Woodleigh are meant to point out to the bolt action/double rifle crowd that the lowly lever gun can meet the double rifles ballistics one to one i.e. same exact bullet same exact muzzle velocity. Do you understand, my point there? All they can argue now is that the Winchester M1895 is still a "push feed" and not a controlled round feed, which is just about a stupid argument. A double rifle, afterall, is a finger feed so watch out for Mr. Murphy butterfingers! (last comment not directed to you Jayco).

Of subject question:

Who, in your professional opinion, makes the best chainsaw in the 3.75 to 5 Hp bracket with a bar length of 20" to 24"?

Thanks,
Scott

Just curious and also asking for your information.
Why has noone commented on the 450 Alaskan as a DGR Lever Gun. I have a Browning '71 that way and am also wondering what the max PSI might be if someone knows.
Thanks
Frank

Scotts, only Sissys use any thing other than a STIHL

Scott- I have always been a Huskavarna(Husky) fan myself with know bad thoughts on Stihl.I probably would get a Stihl if I was you.I cut up a 5-point Bull Elk with a Stihl Chainsaw with Wesson Oil as the bar lube.

On Rifles-In working up my 405 grain Kodiaks I had two head out of the Barrel at 1960+ fps out of an 18.5 inch barrel.Alittle recoil on those for sure out of a 7- pound rifle.I backed off a grain and am sticking at 1900+ fps.

Headin for the hills now to let the dogs run and look for sheds.
Best of luck.Jayco.

Jayco,



Thanks for advise. I'll bet that 45-70 does push just a tad.



Frank,



Does your 450 Alaska push a 480 gr bullet at least 2050 fps? If it can, and at a safe pressure, the it would qualify at a minimum as a dangerous game capable rifle. I believe the maximum pressure for the M71 with the 450 Alaska bolt head is around 40,000 CUP. I will see if I have any reference material with more accurate data.



Something to keep in mind, the 450 NE with ~ 30% more case volume than the 450 Alaska gets to those ballistics with a chamber pressure of > 47000 psi.



Chuckwagon,



What Stihl would you recommend?



Scott

Thanks Scott. I wan't sure the listed 42,000 would change after altering to the 450. I will have to do some chrono testing to get the accurate velocity numbers.
Frank

Depends on what you need to do and what kind of wood you have in your area. I cut predominately soft wood on my land so I use a Stihl 026 pro with a 18" bar and oregon full chisel chain. I was being somewat fecetious about Stihl. Huskys aint all bad but in my book they are the only two worth considering. Find out what sells at the stores where you live and go with that brand. It will be one of the two. They never seem to have the same market saturated. In my state you can only find Husky at Lowes and a select store here or there. You can get Stihl parts at every small town hardware store from here to timbucto in my state. I hear its just the opposite in other states. In the Still line probably a 036 Pro for a 20" bar. I never owned a chubby err I mean Husky ( husqvarna ) but I have looked at the 357 XP.

ScottS, Like I said I'm not here to pick a fight, just to share another point of view. I see you mistakenly took this personally as evidenced by the tone of your reply. It's sad that you can't calmly discuss matters like a rational adult. Penetration is not a cure all to the ideal hunting cartridge. Actual field experiance will teach you that. There are many other factors to consider. If you don't agree with me fine, we are all entitled to our oppinions. Now a reply in a civil manner without unnecessary sarcasm would be the mature thing to do. TKO and penetration are not the same, and TKO like I said is something to take into consideration not something to soley judge a cartridge performance on. You did not get my point at all. Your "dropping hogs with a .22" comment proves that. Your penetration argument is fine on paper, or if you're shooting into ballistic gelatin or railroad ties, but a true test of cartridge/load can only be proven in the field on living flesh, blood, and bones. When you have gained real field experiance with your gun, and load please return, and fill us in on all the details. We will be waiting.