I shot some plainsgame and a Buff with a 45-90 Mod 86 winchester octogon rifle (26")....I used Hornady 350 softs and 500 gr. solids, both with warm handloads...It got the job done but I wasn't very impressed. It sure was a nice and very very accruate rifle, but alas it fetched a real big price and away it went...The Hornady 350 softs were the only bullet I found that didn't come apart..It is an excellent bullet, but hat was pre Nosler in 45 cal.

Hi Danny

Have personally shot Bull elephants with a 7x57 and 7.62 Nato. Clem Coetsee, who headed Zims biggest culling unit has shot arround twelve thousand elephants with 7.62x54R and .30-06. Watched Ken worsley kill six buff cows with six shots from a .357 revolver - But... None of this was hunting! The buff were shot at point blank range from the back of a landrover to test various bullets. Clem would initaite a cull with his .465 and then finish off the smaller cows and calves with either a Dragaonov or a .30-06

I would never use such a small caliber by choice. PAC sometimes doesn't leave a choice.

And no , a 30-30 at those velocities wouldn't work on ele from the front. Need a 220grn .30 cal bullet at arround 2200 fps to do the job. Clem prefered the soviet draganov's because a) they were semi auto, b) held 10 rnds in a qD magazine, c) we had plenty of 172grn AP ammo taken off the gooks in the war. Had funny things happen even to AP rounds on big bulls from front on but on cows and calves they worked fine.

The colonial Authorities got tired of burrying wanabe Karimojo Bells who insited on useing small caliber rifles for all game and legislated minimums of between 9,2 mm and 10mm (.40 cal) for dangerous game. You can kill with many things- your .30-30 would surely kill an elephant with a heart shot, but either not reliably enough or quickly enough. I have shot a PAC elephant with over 30 bullets from 7.62 Nato and Soviet through the lungs and stomach and it was fine- wounds begining to heal.

Our fore fathers used what they had and accepted the loss of a high proportion of the game that they shot at. If you read between the lines of many of the old African hunting stories, between 50 and 75% of all big game shot was abandoned as wounded and lost. These are not acceptable statistics in a world where we realise the game is Not endless, and we have perfectly aceptable calibers capable of killing cleanly under all circumstances.

I dearly love my winchester rifles and African history, and after a couple of years digging arround archives and scrounging facts I put an article togeather on winchesters in Africa. Africa's main pioneer period covered the years 1830-1900 and winchesters were as popular here as in the American West.

The article appeared in the African Hunter vol 2 of 2004. I believe that that issue is finaly arriving in the USA. I will endevour to get the article up on this forum in the new year.

For African Hunter subscribers, Volumes 3, & 4 are printing in the USA and should be posted next week. Now it is me who will have to wait 3 months for my mag! instead of the other way arround

Ganyana
According to some at this site a 22 rim fire out of a bolt gun is more likely to stop a cape buffalo then a 50 caliber out of a lever action. It seems that a bullet leaving a lever action reduces the killing power.
According to your research what calibers and models were the most represented during pioneer period.
Jim

Most common - 44-40. The BSAP adopted the Winchester M92 as standard in 1894 (there are probably more low serial number M92's in Zimbabwe, Zambia and Botswana than in the USA. M73's were popular in South Africa. Amongst the Pioneers who liked the bigbores the M76 in 45-75 was reasonably common. Later the M86's in 45-90, .40-82 and in third place .45-70. Also Colt Lightning rifles were popular in the government issue .44-40 cal and .50 cal.

Hi Ganyana
and what did they kill with those 44-40 s in Africa? i heard a lot from a french oldtimer who lived in CAR between the two world wars that he downed almost allo of games found there with his 44-40 true or fals only god knows . these hunters are not to trust!! it is why i ask your opinion about it.
regards
danny

Ganyana,
Thanks for posting your article-- I will be looking forward to reading it! A question for you -- I have recently had a .50 alaskan made up on a Marlin Cowboy. The Cowboy has the 26" bbl and full mag tube (holds 9 shots). It shoots the .510 diameter 535 grain Woodleighs at 1850fps into 1" groups at 100yards. What game would you feel comfortable using it on there?

Hi Danny

Many men owned nothing other than a .44-40. One of the two men who sorted out the man eating lions at Chirundu in 1936 "Jock" (Jack) Ross used a colt lightning in .44-40 to shoot over a dozzen man eating lion. I can quite believe that all soft skined game has beeen taken with that cartridge. Jock later moved onto a .450/.400 so he obviously found the .44-40 somewhat anemic. During the depression though what you had was what you used and with cheep government ammo falling off the back of trucks...

Hi Buckeye

That rifle would be suitable for any animal except elephant. If you wanted to hunt elephant with it, and you were my client, I would be happy - Provided, you a) told me in advance you were bringing a rifle that would be marginal on a frontal shot. b) Were prepared to hunt they way I wanted.

The .535grn bullet at that velocity is a little light for a frontal shot on a bull, so you would be restricted to a side brain, or preferably a heart shot. Knowing this, I would manouver you for a heart shot and not let you take a frontal brain. That said, I try never to give a client a frontal brain and generally try and talk them out of a brain shot all together for their first elephant anyway. I have never been forced into a frontal shot by circumstances with a client, but may a PH has so there is a remote possibility that such a rifle would cost you your trophy - provided you know that in advance... I'm happy

Ganyana,
In your research on Winchester rifles did you find anything on the 1895 model and was it used in the Boer War? most likely in .303 British or .303 Enfield as Winchester marked them. I have never read or heard of this model being used in Southern Africa at this time but it was available in Australia and Canada so you would think a few would have got to South Africa/Rhodesia ? Thanks.
Steve

Any chance of posting that pic if available? or the name of any books relating to it? There was a few 1895's in .303 in Australia about this time but were very expensive rifles. I would think they would be a much sought after rifle by the Boers and the Volunteer units during the war. Thanks
Steve

Danny,
I would not classify the .405Win as a "cowboy round" granted it was used in a lever action (Winchester 1895)but it came out about 1904 and is still the most powerful rimmed lever action cartridge made . I would not classify any cartridge the 1895 was chambered for as a "cowboy round" these were 30/40Krag, .303Brit, .30/06Spfl, .405Win, 7.62x54R plus a few others.The other calibres you described would be but in general a lever action that is tube magazine fed is a cowboy gun . Thanks
Steve

RLI
do you mean to say "still made" or "ever made" re the 405?

It's still...
Hornady has two loads, 300gr. FP & 300gr. SP.

I agree with your statements Ganyana!

Yes, the .405Win is the most powerful rimmed cartridge for a lever action made. Hornady currently make it and is imported into Australia by Herrons. I know Browning make the BLR in modern rimless cartridges but in rimmed/flanged it is the most powerful.
Steve

HI,

When someday I get to Africa,I will hunt cape Buff with this 50-110 done by Dave Clay,I push a 525 HC to 2200fps,Kev

HI, here is another pic,kev

HI,and one more,kev

Kev .

What would go really good through that are some

PA Bullet's

HI,

I will call and get some,Martin,they look nice,Kev

Ganyana,

Great thread and replies. Should be 5 star rated! Where's the moderator?

I'll go ahead and give you some.

Roger QSL

The 45/120 Sharps sounds like it should do the job but I am not familiar with that cartridge. I thought Sharps cartridges were mostly single shot? What rifle is it used in? Thanks
RLI

I have shot some deer and antelope with my grandads old 38-40 and my uncles 44-40...I have to say I was not impressed in the least..I did notice however that a good cast hard Keith simi wadcutter in a handload did a much better job than any of the factory ammo they used....I also noticed the 44-40 always did a better job than the 38-40 which was pretty unpredictable in results, like one antelope that I shot some 8 or 9 times maybe more before he expired..

Kev,

can the stock on your 50-110 be bought at a shop ??

I have my 1886 el now and maybe when I get some more cash I would like to make a 50-110 but the .404 J project has blown out big time....first and last custom mauser

HI,

PC,it was madw by hand by Dave Clay,I talk to him a few days ago and he is thinking of making stocks that will also be able to have mercury recoil tubes placed in them. As far as I know no one has a stock like it,talk to dave you may just wait to next year and see,Kev

Hi RLI
well these old BP caliber were used in sharp single shot rifles the power is about 45-70 but somewhat heavier bullet could be used 550 gr upward.
cheers danny

Thanks Kev.

HI,

Anytime PC, Dave Clays new number is 1 817 783 6099,Kev

Why the asumption that all those 44-40's were used on game? The Winchester lever action rifle is a superb choice for self-defense. Try topping the magazine of an M-16 off during a fire fight. Then slip a couple more rounds into the side port of a Lever gun.

.44-40's were popular for defence but... They were close range numbers only in a continent where most fights took place at long range. The Shields of the Zulu, Mateble and Barotse would stop a bullet from a .44 Henry, .450 revolver at 50 yards reliably. The .44-40 has a bit more steam but probably not enough to be effective having passed through a shield when the man behid it has been using daga (dope) and working himself up into a killing frenzy for half an hour before the attack.

It was precicely because of their lack of range that they were issued to the native police. A policy that worked. During the '96 rebellions at least 750 M92 winchesters were taken over to the rebels by deserting policemen. Ammo shortage and the fact that the imperial and colonial troops never fought at less than 300 yards if they could help it ensured that casulties were kept to a minimum.

Medical records are incomplete, but if one discounts the civilains murdered at the outbreat of the rebellions and the wounds that were known to have been caused by muzzel loaders or Martini's then 750 ex police with winchesters and many tribesmen with M73's and M92's taken from their victims in the first couple of days managed to kill less than 15 troopers.

In the fierce fighting that caricterised the opening week of both the matebele and mashona rebellions it was the shotgun and the martini that covered themselves with glory. If you are not familiar with the story , look up "The Mazoe Patrol". In the final round of the fight the 32 surviving selters, Burgers and police were armed with Lee Metford carbines, Martini's and the three women with shotguns. The 1000+ rebeles with Winchesters and Martini's. Final Score? Rebels 3, Seltlers 100+ and they broke through with the sick and wounded to reach the main laarger at salisburry.

Kev,

would you be able to explain to me about your scope mounting set up on your 50-110 and how it is attached and what type it is ??

I am also wondering how much the 50 ak gives up to the 50-110 in starline brass and modern loadings. It seems it would be an easier conversion to get my 1886 el to fire 50 ak's than 50-110's and you would not have the issue with the barrel being thinned out at the top to allow for the 50-110's long case ??

also what is the best twist rate for either the 50-110 or 50 AK and off whom did you purchase your barrel ??

Also have you been using the hawk bullets at all ??

I am still debating wether to get my 1886 converted after I finish my .404.

Thanks Kev.

Did someone say the 405 is the most powerful leveraction round commercially available? What about the 450 Marlin?

Browning offered for ashort time a lever action in 300 Win Mag.

I know thay did becouse i bought one and am now having a convertion done on it to 458 Win Mag

Martin,

that also sounds like a great project !!

I just did the convertion to piss Ray off
I got tired of here King Ray bitch about the lever action rifle not being a true big game gun.
So i went 458 win mag the browning lever action was the best route to go in that it's not really a lever action pre say it's a box feed lever operated rifle.
No tube...

I kinda wish i have not done it as it will be just a wall hanger .. unless i can get a bubby of mine that goes over ever year to hunt with it in africa. other wise .....


I have alot of other rifle's far better

Ruger M 77 ...458 Win Mag

Brno 416 Rigby

custom .. 9.3x64 Ber/

Maus/ 9.3x64 Ber/

Maus/ 11x57

etc.....................

Martin Send it out! I love a good lever action and would gladly go and use a suitable one on some dangerous game. I'll even send you the photo's

With all the re=enactors here in the US someone could grow a mustache, wear the right big hat and knickers and do a Teddy Roosevelt impersonation lion hunting with a .405 95.

Hi RLI

By the letter of the law a .405 is legal on game up to kudu zize but not lion, eland or giraffe.

Actually I would be very happy for you to use a .405 on any of those three. SD/velocity is a bit low to use on ele or buff, but a client bringing one out who is prepared to wait for the "right shot" and go home empty handed if things don't work out exactly right... It will safely take ele or buff from side on.

Sitting in the middle of the African bush I don't get to play with too many new rifles. There are plenty of M92's arround - great fun but boy are they inaccurate. A few 1895's in .303 - not a rifle I have ever been fond of. A few marlin .45-70's, plenty of M94's in .30-30 and .44 mag. I own the only marlin .44 mag I have seen out here and the only M71. I love that M71 and keep toying with the idea of getting it upgraded into something that I know will be safe on dangerous game under all circumstances.

It is all very well to have a rifle that is perfect for leopard but if you are hunting leopard/kudu etc in the zambezi valley then the rifle in your hands needs to be able to drop an ele, lion or buff front on. A client doesn't have the same concern. The PH does the protecting.

I want a 300grn .375 bullet at 2300fps, a 400grn .416 bullet 2200fps or possibly a 480grn .458 bullet at 2100fps as the minimum requirements for a cartridge to be safe under all conditions (assuming you are sensible and don't try and capture an ele calf in the jesse for humor - yes we have red necks here as well - hey everybody there is a lost calf, lets catch it!)