Ganyana....you need to convert that rifle to 50-110, then you'll get a .510" 525 gr bullet at 2200 fps

Ganyana,
Thanks for the info on the history of levers in Southern Africa, very good reading. The lever actions I like to use here in Australia are my

Winchester 1895 .405Win
Marlin .444 (Using factory Hornady 265g ammo)
Browning BLR .308Win (Belgium model)
Winchester 9422M in.22Magnum

for a lefty these cover just about everything in OZ . Thanks again.

Steve

Ganyana,

You may want to re-do your 71 to 450 Alaskan. I had a new Browning 71 done to that caliber, and it would do an honest (chronographed) 2150 with 400 grain slugs. You might get a little more as I hadn't loaded to max loads. If your gun is a Winchester 71, I wouldn't convert it to 450AK, as it's collector value would drop.

BTW, your reporting on the Lever Gun in Africa, is very good reading. Hope to see more of your adventures in the future.

Roger QSL

Ganyana,

One other question. Are you a PH? If so, would you do a one Buff hunt for the AR family?

Let me know. My E-address is:
powellrprp1@cs.com
mag4570@hotmail.com

My phone #:
480-710-8283

Roger QSL

Hi Guys

For the record

Yes I am a PH, but no, I don't "book" hunts. I am an eclogist by profession and a part time PH who free lances for whoever pays me most when my wife outspends what I can normally earn (or to be fair, I need a new toy). I will make recomendations as to a suitable opertor and you book the hunt, and then request me as the PH if you desperatly want to I don't like hunting leopard (sitting watching meat rot isn't my idea of fun, and I don't have enough experience to be fair to you on a dogged leopard hunt). Lion in some areas are fun, and I enjoy hunting buff...

PC, a 50 cal is a little o.t.t. for me I think. A nasy fellow (Now happily deceased) with an AK 47 ensured that my natural dislike for recoil was backed up by the sugeons recomendation that I never shoot right handed again. After the all Africa games (I shot 300m ISU) I had to go back and get some of the pins holding things together straightened. The old doc (who fixed my dad up in the 1950's) cussed me properly! Said I was buggering up all his good work and if I bent the pins again to find somebody else to fix it I still shoot off both shoulders but want something that I can actully use without first booking a bed in St Anns.

No worries Ganyana....I to may grow out of the bigger stuff as I get older by force not choice !!

I am just very excited about this 50-110 project....

Ganyana,

If a hunt were to be put together, could a Buff be done, in your hunting area, with a 45/70?

We had a raffle some time ago, where the winner was to do a Buff with a lever gun, 45/70, and it never reached maturity.

If such an event could be put together, would you do the PH work? The reason I'm inclined to search out your services, is do to your apparent enjoyment with the lever gun for hunting.

At this stage, this is more of a scouting operation, and if this develops any futher, would possibly need the help of one of your booking companies.

One other thing, if this should get moving, expect a lot of non-sense posts. Quite a few here really don't believe in the lever-gun's ability to do DG. I'm one of those, but under the proper conditions, believe it can be done safely. Should also be a lot of fun for all involved.

Let me know.

Roger QSL

HI,

ROGER, I have talk with many here who feel a lever is not up to the job,the big problem with this it is not the lever,but the round used in the lever.I went to a 50-110 which push a 525 WFN to around 2200fps, a .510 bullet going that fast will put any Buff down,just because it comes from a lever does not make it less a round, now I believe a 4570 will work,but it would not be my first choice,this is just me,Kev

HI,

Martin, I would love to see a pic of your lever in the 458, that would be one hell of a lever and no one could argue with the fact of a 458 as a stopper. This is just the point I am trying to make with the levers.With the new powders and bullets and matterals lever can be customed to very good stoppers for any game.I would also say one has to understand that there is a range limit to them especially with tube feed levers,no SP rounds so them big flat nose rounds shed energy fast,but DG should be shot close anyway, it is not the lever,but the round it shoots,I still believe that a bolt action would make a better over-all rifle as they can shoot out to longer rangers,Kev

Kev

When i lived up there in God's Country -Alaska-

80% of the guy's carried lever's into the wood's and those of use that were nut's enough to go out looking for bear in the deap brush carried double barreled shotgun's
With wax coverd end's..Short and Fast..when all you had was 10 to 40 feet to do what you came out there to do
hunt Bear.

The 458 rechamber job i am having done was and is related
to the outcry from those that think the lever belong's in
past alone with the bison and not out in the field hunting elk or anything larger.

For to long the 45/70 and the 45/90 and the other large bore lever's have been put down as under powered rifle's
or just ment for the sort range shooter ..BUNK..
some of the longest shot's were made with the 45/70
in the 1800's.
True back then it was .! under powered put today's
Lever action rifle's are far better built and can take the pounding ....as out forund out to my sugrin when i screwed up a load and put the wrong powder in and got 86.000 PSI
out of it instead of 45.000 PSI ..The rifle held together
and it happened not once but twice ..So two of the Marlin GS 45/70 withstood 86.000 PSI NO head spacing.
BUT....!! the lever's on both popped open and the shell's had to be beating out and both shell's had deformed bad
and both shell case's had split down one side.

What happened was that the small little locking arm rounded over and had to be replaced on both..So there was .! damage to both rifle's and part's did have to be replaced

But the fact that thay both with stood SUPER.! high pressure's is a testemnt to the improvement's marlin has made on it's action's and how far the lever action has come ..


As far as DG hunting goes ..Well i hunt in the brush with my
45/70 for cat's and my 9.3x64 in the open..And i have alot of other gun's to choose from .If i wanted somthing diffrent ..

Kev your 50-110 IS a DG rifle hand's down
your 50 Alaskan is one as well let no man tell you diffrent.

To sum up all the improvment's that have been made to the lever action have brought it up to par with the bolt
if firing 50 Alaskan or 50-110 or even the new modle's of 45/70 in the lever action's..



Pottsy

Just my two cent's worth

It take's the right bullet for the right job
And it take someone that can shoot far above the norm to take on a cape with a 45/70

Can it be done Hell yes it can be done and safely as well
but only in the hand's of an expert..

and with the right load and bullet's

-Would i walk out onto the plain's of africa and shoot a
Cape myself.? with a 45/70 with somthing bullet's i made up
.......YES...... would i have you or someone else do it ..I can't speak to that point i don't know you .I don't know how long you have hunted ..I don't know how you hunt...
See the trouble guide's have to put up with
thay don't know you from the next guy..
I would think that if you brought a 416 rigby and your 45/70 alone and showed the guide how good you are and that the bullet's you were going to shoot would and could do the job he may let you pack it out along with your 416 rigby

but remmber if you miss or can't put it down ...Well i think you see were this is going........

A good custom made 400 grain solid in a semi flat nose in .458 for your 45/70 should work ..
If it were Me I would go 500 grain flat nose
jacket bullet's with a wall thickness if 0.060 the rest of the tube i would put in 400 grain solid's and as hot as you can handle them.Remmber this would be me not you ..




Pottsy

Ganyana,

I've put a feeler at the African Big Game Hunting thread for feedback on a possible buff hunt with you as the PH, and the 45/70 the gun to be used. Let's see what transpires.

LEVER GUN HUNTERS, here is your opportunity to express your thoughts in regards to DG hunting. PLEASE keep it friendly.

If this gets rolling, one of us might get a chance of a lifetime hunt.

I'm looking forward to winning.HI

Roger QSL

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Hi Buckeye<br /><br />That rifle would be suitable for any animal except elephant. If you wanted to hunt elephant with it, and you were my client, I would be happy - Provided, you a) told me in advance you were bringing a rifle that would be marginal on a frontal shot. b) Were prepared to hunt they way I wanted.<br /><br />The .535grn bullet at that velocity is a little light for a frontal shot on a bull, so you would be restricted to a side brain, or preferably a heart shot. Knowing this, I would manouver you for a heart shot and not let you take a frontal brain. That said, I try never to give a client a frontal brain and generally try and talk them out of a brain shot all together for their first elephant anyway. I have never been forced into a frontal shot by circumstances with a client, but may a PH has so there is a remote possibility that such a rifle would cost you your trophy - provided you know that in advance... I'm happy

---

I just recieved my edition of African Hunter containing the Lever Action article. A very good read very informative.

Steve

Fred Zeglin of Z-Hat Custom built me a Browning (Winchester) Model 1895 chambered for .375 Hawk, which is a 9.3 x 62 mm necked up to .375 caliber (its the rifle on his web page <www.z-hat.com>.

That cartridge (9.3 x 62 mm) is highly regarded in Africa and frequently exempted from the .375 caliber and up restriction. The .375 Hawk has the same performance and no question as far as caliber restriction (however, some countries have a further restriction on kinetic energy that may exclude some usage; the .375 Hawk produces ~3750 ft-lb ME).

In practical terms, when loaded with a modern bonded core or monolithic bullet of 270 grains at 2500+ fps MV, it will have an equivalent or better performance to yesteryear's .375 H&H using 300 gr bullets that lost 40% or more of their mass in the first few inches of penetration. Which is to say that it is pretty potent.

With a neat little 2X Leupold Scout Scope on a quarter rib this is also the fastest handling rifle I have ever used. It would be great for the general run of game in bush country (I took it to Alaska earlier this year on the open tundra and had no problem in stalking inside 150 yards either), and I think it can do anything that a 9.3 x 62 mm or a .375 H&H historically has been expected to do.

I was under the impression that all of Freds wildcats are necked up 30-06's.

Chuck Wagon, that is equally correct. The 9.3 x 62 mm is almost identical to a .30-06 in dimensions. I used that case for discussion for two reasons: 1) its a well regarded African caliber, and 2) it was the basis originally for the .375 Hawk when Bob Fulton did the design work. They use .30-06 basic cases now (I get mine from Quality Cartridge), but the shoulder is moved well forward compared to the standard `06 and it is 1 mm shorter. The only difference between the .375 Hawk and the 9.3 x 62 mm is the neck size (obviously) and about 0.001 or 0.002 at the base, depending on what brass is used. If you hold the two cases side by side its hard to see any difference even in the neck.

I considered the 9.3 x 64 mm Brenneke on the 1895, but the case is just barely too large to go down in the magazine (you can load one, but it won't go down any farther). There is room in the action for a wider magazine box. That would be a very interesting custom project. I have toyed with the idea of a .411 wildcat on that cartridge. It would duplicate the .404 Jeffery without running the pressure too high and come close to the old standard ballistics for the .416 Rigby.

I looked at building a 1895 in 9.3x62 or more accurately haveing Fred build one for me. I scrapped the idea after looking at the price in favor of a 375 H&H bolt. So far I haven't found anything decent ( IMHO ) for under 2k so I'm starting to re-consider. The thing I don't really understand is how you take a case thats smaller than the 375 and load it to the ballistic equivellant of the 375 with out higher pressures. The 375 seems like a great wildcat. I'm assumeing you can form any 30-06 brass and use standard 375 bullets. How accurate is yours ?

Understand that when I made the comparison to the H&H I was doing so by comparing the retained bullet mass of conventional bullets from the old days (and until quite recently) which shed up to 50% of their mass within the first 3 or 4 inches of penetration with a modern bullet of lesser initial mass but which loses a lot less:

H&H 300 gr 2550 fps <210 gr after impact
Hawk 270 gr 2500+fps >210 gr after impact

There is no question that the H&H pushes the same bullet faster, or that modern bullets in a 375 H&H would prove better than the Hawk. But the H&H earned its reputation before that technology was available.

My rifle can make 1 MOA groups with some loads, but it easily does 1.5 MOA. I see it as a 200 yard gun, although it could make a 300 yard shot under ideal conditions. In my estimation that is a long way to shoot.

I get preformed cases from Quality Cartridge. You would have to neck up, then down, trim and fireform a .30-06 or (better yet) .35 Whelen to make them yourself. It uses any .375 caliber bullet you like. The best weights are 250 to 270 grains, but it will make ~2400 fps with a 300 gr bullet.

Its very close to a 375 H&H. Factory loads look about 150 fps slower with the Hawk both campared useing a 300 grainer. Fred just doesn't publish enough ballistic data unless I missed it. I don't see energy values or pressures. Overall I think it's a dandy round but for Africa it still seems a better option to re-barrel to 9.3x62 in any DG is in the picture. Of course the 375 Hawk sure gives a better/easier to find brass and bullet selection. I've started watching for a standard browning 1895 in 30-06 again. I just think this would be a fun gun for lever fanatics like us !

If you like a lever gun then the 1895 in 9,3x62 is fine for all round african use. Proper Norma or RWS 9,3 brass holds 5-6 grains more than any converted 30-06 case I have tried. I use re-formed .30-06 cases for light hunting loads (using the speer 270 grn bullet) and stick to original 9,3 cases for dangerous game loads.

Also, for "all round" African Use, a .270 grn bullet in .375 is next to useless. Too little SD. Need to look at .300 grn. A 300 grn .375 bullet at 2350fps is the minimum to aim for for dangerous game rifle

Ganyana, while SD may be a rough guide in selecting a bullet for some purpose, it really tells you nothing in absolute terms about the performance. It says nothing about bullet construction, which is a far more significant influence on performance than initial mass and nominal bore diameter. While I have not yet done a side by side comparison of 270 gr and 300 gr North Forks and Barnes X-Bullets with other stripes of similar weights, I have done that in other calibers and I am confident that a 270 gr NF or XB will penetrate deeper than any conventional 300 gr lead core bullet, or even something like a Woodleigh, unless the jacket proportions on their .375-300 gr is very different than on their .308-220 gr. It is a test that I plan on doing in the near future. I have already tested the 250 and 270 gr North Forks from my 1895 and they drove very deep, as well as made big holes. I will post it soon on my website, which is currently under revision. Now, to be fair, I will readily admit that a 300 gr NF or XB or Swift A-Frame, Trophy-Bonded, etc. will beat out a 270 gr. But you might be surprised at by how little margin. I would not call the lesser weight next to useless. Depending on the bullet and the load, I think it may turn out that a 270 gr bullet could be better in that rifle than a 300 gr, as an all-around load. In a .375 H&H there is no doubt but that I would select a 300 gr bullet, and maybe if dangerous game was the only thing on the menu I would do the same in the .375 Hawk. Dangerous game is hunted at close range, so trajectory is no issue. If I were to use a single load for both plains game out to 200 yards and buffalo, I might prefer the 270 gr with a really stout bullet.

quote:

---

---

If you like a lever gun then the 1895 in 9,3x62 is fine for all round african use. Proper Norma or RWS 9,3 brass holds 5-6 grains more than any converted 30-06 case I have tried. I use re-formed .30-06 cases for light hunting loads (using the speer 270 grn bullet) and stick to original 9,3 cases for dangerous game loads

How much more velocity would an additional 5-6 grains of powder impart to the projectile? Would there be enough to warrent the additional expense of cases, etc.?
Jim

I'm not sure of the exact answear to your question but I would think 5-6 grains a very noticeable gain. Even .5 grains can make a difference in a load. It would seem this would be especially critical when useing a minimal caliber such as the 9.3x62 for DG.

As far as converting a Browning/Winchester 1895 goes, the easiest would be to go to the 9.3x62mm. I've had one done up myself with express sights and a custom stock that took some of the drop out and also increased the recoil pad area. I was thinking of going to a 10.75x68mm, but in the end chose the 9.3mm because of factory ammo availability.

The 10.75mm was also designed to work in the standard length Mauser action and is not as large at the base as the 9.3x64mm Brenneke either, although it is a tad bit bigger than the 9.3x62mm head size.

I guess that if you did want the ultimate classic type DGR in lever action, the 1895 in 10.75mm loaded with the modern 400 gr's and powder would duplicate the old .404's ballistics fairly easy...

I’ll be interested to see how this conversion comes out if somebody chooses to tackle it.

Arkypete

The extra 5grns case capacity of Norma brass over R-P 30-06 is significant for top end loads. The 9,3x62 is my favourite dangerous game rifle but it is the very minimum... With South African powders I can get a 286grn bullet at 2380fps @ ½ a grain below listed max with S355 powder in my rifle. The same load in reformed 30-06 brass feels slightly sticky on the bolt. Not what the doctor ordered. PMP 9,3 brass is very thick and has the same case capacity as the reformed 30-06 brass I use. PMP load their 286grn rounds to 2290fps.

Admitedly factory pressure specs for a 9,3x62 is only 48000psi, and in a modern rifle you should be able to go up to at least 55k but... I am happy with my loads.

Also, RWS and Norma 9,3 brass is 1/10mm fatter at the case head (not rim) than R-P 30-06 brass. When using 30-06 brass the cases bulge just slightly ahead of the rim - never had one seperate and usually get 5 loadings out of a case before I bin it.

For Rich - the 10-75 x68 needs some fancy loadings to be safe for dangerous game carry. Factory loads will not reach the brain on a big ele with a frontal shot. Need to either increase the velocity by 200fps or increase the bullet weight to say 380grns and not reduce velocity. I have seen a couple used over the years and with careful handloading they can be made to perform - usual local load is a 400grn bullet with 75grns S365 behind it for 2170fps. Factory spec stuff should be restricted to lion, Eland, Giraffe etc.

Ganyana
hope I remembered the spelling.
Anyway, I had a 375-06, 375 Whelen on a Mark-X action made up for shooting cast bullets. I use what ever load data for 375 jacketed bullets that I can find, mostly I use 35 Whelen jacketed bullet load data as starting point. I've got the molds, dies etc., so I thought I'd have my Browning model 95 30-06 converted to 375-06. The 375-06 would be a junior partner to my model 95 405.
That's sort of on the back burner for the moment, taking wife to South Africa for a hunt in May and since we both like to cook and bake I'm buying a super duper double oven stove, so money is tight at the moment.
The rifle and loads should be worked up for our/my next African hunt.
Any way out of my Mark-X a Saeco 265 grain gc'd cast bullet, from a wheel weight/babbit alloy will punch through a rail road cross tie at 100 yards. A 250 grain GC'd RCBS bullet out of the same alloy punched through a 1/4 inch cold rolled steel plate at 100 yards. The muzzle loaders had used the steel plate as a target, during one of their matches.
I'm not sure if the penetraiting ability has any real world application, but sure impressed me.
Jim

In the Edwardian era, how popular were Winchester 1876 & 1886 rifles in Africa?

Over the years I've seen a lot of vintage photos with Winchester lever guns in them, but most were of model 1873s and 1892s used as a light pot rifle to take small gazelle or the occasional leopard or hyena. I also wondered if they were used to keep their porters in line with or to shoot/stop their gun bearer who have taking off with the heavy rifle at the moment it’s needed the most.

I'm interested to know how popular the larger frame 76s and 86s were, there most popular calibres and what they were used on.

Hi Rich

Go back to the old AR forums and look at the early posts on this topic or buy a copy of the African hunter mag with the article in ... but in summery

The 1876 was reasonably popular in 45-75cal
the 1886 was very popular in .45-90 or 40-82

For most African Hunting the .44-40 was a little underpowered, and the average man north of the line of civilization needed a rifle to keep lions off his oxen or horse. The .44-40's were house guns or for fighting people, but the pioneers, and early hunters carried something a little more powerful.

After 1897 every man moving noth of the limpopo river in British territory had to own a .303, and this largely killed off the popularity of the '86.

In the Portuguese, French and German territories 11mm Mausers were standard and remained so until replaced by smokless rounds.

Very few of the Boers in South Africa could afford a Winchester, and would never have afforded their new 7mm Mausers (models 93 and 95) if it wasn't for a government decree that if they didn't own one they couldn't vote/weren't citizens, and in any case used tha vast income from the Dynamite monopoly to subsidise the price

Why doesn't somebody write a book on lever actions and their historical significance during the British Empire era? That is to say in Canada, Africa and India during the Victorian and Edwardian period.

I would think that if it was done right and covered a period from around the late 1860s to before the start of WWII, it would be a very good seller!

I'm sure there is somebody out there who would be a good authority, historian and writer for this task. This may also help dispel the belief that lever guns were not common or greatly used outside America.

I have been following this and other discussions about lever action rifles in Africa and particularly the use of the 45-70 for dangerous game. I fiured the only way to settle the matter was to test it out first hand. I drove 112 miles from my home in NJ to the Hamburg Pa Cabelas. I purchased a Marlin 1895 guide gun in 45-70 and a box of Buffalo Bore ammo. I took the gun and ammo over to the African game display, loaded the Marlin and took a Lung shot at the 2 standing Cape Buffalo from a distance of 15 or 20 feet. The bullet penetrated through both buffalo through the back wall into the fishing dept and finally came to rest in the far side exterior wall penetrating to a depth of 5 inches.
So there is proof positive the 45-70 is more than adequate for Cape Buffalo. If I had more time before security arrived I could have tested it on the Elephant and Rino.

Well you really **cked up a great opportunity ! If you would have grabbed Garret Hammerheads instead of Buffalo bores it probably would have penetrated all the way to Cabelas in Dundee Mi and put a extra hole in my azz while I was shopping !

If anyone is intrested I am seling my Matebele rebellion vintage Winchester 92 in .44-40. See my post in the gun collecting forum if interested.

I'm planning my 1st trip to Africa for a Cape Buffalo in 2006. My base rifle is a Marlin 45/70 (26"bbl.) with Garrett 540 grain Hammerhead ammo. www.garrettcartridges.com
I worked with the rifle/ammo enough until now I feel comfortable with my groups out to a zero of 135 yards. Since there are no buffalo in Georgia, I'll just wait until 2006 and tell you how the 45/70 works on big critters. - I'm also shopping for a double rifle as my stopper, just in case.

I know the .405 can be loaded to duplicate a 450-400 in a Ruger No.1, I'm not sure about the Win. m-95?????

If I was going to use a lever gun in Africa, it would be a 50-120 or 50-140 even better, but I suspect something like the 450 Alaskans are suitable...If they will get 2000 FPS with 500 bullet in a 45 cal. or 2100 with a 400 gr. bullet in a 40 cal., it would me suit me...

Folks can say what they want about the 45-70 and 45--90 (a bit better) but they are slow killers of big animals from what I have seen and shot with them and that encludes deer, elk and Bison...The cape buffalo stories I read, in every case the buffalo made a lot of tracks and took a lot of shots, not to my liking...However if someone wants to hunt dangerous game with them thats their choice, not mine..Its just not for me...I would however shoot any animal on earth with a properly loaded 30-06 with 220 gr. bullets at 2400 FPS, I have seen the results of this load on all manner of game and have always been very impressed with the 06........

Does a 50-110 shooting a 500 gr bullet at 2200 fps qualify for say elephant and buff ??

A .50 cal bullet of 500grns has a sectional density of only .28 Yes that is plenty for buff, fine for a side brain shot on ele at 2200fps but I would like to see velocity in the region of 2400fps to say that it qualifies as an elephant cartridge. The .505 gibbs drives a 525grn bullet at 2300fps and is absolutly safe for use on elephant under all conditions, but penetration is well below a .458 lott. If you need to put in a Portuguese heart shot on a departing ele you are not going to achive that with a .505 - what I am saying is that the .505 has enough penetration to be safe but not an excess. The load you mention doesn't qualify and either velocity or bullet weight needs to come up a bit to qualify.

Ganyana,

I suppose I need a 45/70 loaded with a hard cast bullet at a low velocity for elephant

Ganyana,
That last paragraph sez it all, I agree 100% but the 405 won't qualify unless you load it to the danger zone in a Mod.95, but would easily make it in a Ruger NO. 1.......The 45-70 doesn't even come close except in a Ruger No. 1....

Don't get me wrong guys, I am a lever action fan, I have a 30-30, 25-35, 308 and 250 Savage, cut my teeth on iron sights and lever actions hunting horseback for deer and elk...but for the big 5 very few qualify..Maybe a 50-120 or 140 and perhaps a 50-110 with proper bullets and at least 2000 FPS....A 450 Alaskan might border line it, maybe..but remember loading lever guns hot is not smart, especially in the African heat...

And yes I think the 45-70 is a pretty miserable caliber for anything larger than deer, and I base that on using it, not reading magazine articles...