For those that hunt black bears with a .45-70 which do you prefer?

I have always like shoulder shots on everything from deer, elk, bear, cape buffalo, and elephant.

But I've never killed a black bear with a .45-70. What are your preferences (hopefully based upon experiences, LOL).

Thanks.

BH63

This is not an answer, but thanks for the question as I am going on my first black bear hunt this coming spring with my .405 WCF shooting 300 grain bullets.

Black Bear are not hard to kill.I used to belong to a Coon,Cat & Bear Hound Club.I have probably have seen over 100 bear kills.Everything from 22LR to 30/06 was used.Shoot them between the eye and ear with just about anything and they are dead.Of course if you want to score the skull a shoulder shot or behind the shoulder shot works pretty fast.

I have only killed one black bear,I shot it with my double rifle 450-400 NE, a 400 grain woodleigh going about 2050,one shot to the left shoulder & it was DRT,a hot loaded 45-70 can do this no problem,on this same hunt,I saw another hunter put about 4-5 rounds out of a 30-06 in a treed bear,before it succumbed,shot placement & a proper bullet will do the job every time.

I've shot a few with a .45-70. It depends in my opinion which kind of bullets you are using. A cast bullet since it doesn't expand is better going through some bone. An expanding bullet it really doesn't matter as long as you don't use one of those Hornady FTX bullets. They just come apart no matter what.

While I agree just anything will kill them eventually I personally don't want to crawl into some dark tunnel looking for a bear that I hope is dead. I like them to fall within sight. So the little guns don't do much for me.

Some folks say the 45-70 is a slow killer which it can be if trapdoor Springfield pressure loads are used. Bump the pressure up to modern Levergun velocities along with a good bullet and they work quite well.

For me my favorite bullet right now is the Woodleigh .405 flat point pushed as fast as I can. I like to hit the shoulder going in or out the other side to immobilize them within sight. Hopefully this helps.

I would shoot them in shoulder and take out every thing in between.

But that doesn't mean they will not run.

On my daughter's first bear she busted both shoulders and the bear jumped up ran about 50 yards.

When they are in the tree we head shoot them.

Looks like the HSM bear load 430 gr through the shoulder is the correct answer. LOL.

BH63

I have killed several with a Marlin 45-70 and a bow they die easily with lung shots. I however do NOT recommend using the Remington 405 RN. Shot 2 bears around 250# with that bullet both died...(how much more than dead could I want?)...I'll tell you the first was hit broadside thru the lungs 4 times he died inside of 100 yds, the second was hit thru one shoulder into the lungs he went 400 yds and dies...I have both pelts hanging in my den .458 going in and .458 coming out.

I have killed only two, one with a 9.3x74r double, (of course I gave him the second barrel after he dropped at the first shot. That evens out the wear; I never fire one barrel) and one with a 45-70. with 350 grain Speers. Both lung shots. Both turned the lungs into jello. First one dropped on the spot and didn't move. Second one jumped ten feet into the air and ran 30 yards, and dropped over. Bears seem not to be as hard to kill as hogs.
I saw one more killed by a friend with a 405 Model 95. Lung shot, dropped on the spot, and kicked once. 405 300 grain Hornady bullets open up well.

Long shots = dead bear with no drama.

I’ve been involved in a couple of long distance endurance races with bears that had broken shoulders that were supposed to anchor them.

Black bear die easy if you hit him in the right spot.
Hit them in the lungs with a 22 Magnum and they go down like a $50 hooker. I’ve watched it happen enough times to know wasn’t a fluke.

you watched $50 hookers? haha!!!

I shoot for the point of the shoulder. Or the offside point of shoulder if not broadside. I like the hornady 350 grain round nose or a 400 grain bullet like the woodleigh.

Short of in a tree or a trap, I suggest shooting bear with something that knocks a BIG hole in them, that hair sucks up blood like a sponge and it high mountain forest and always damp to wet ground you don't get proper blood trails, hard to read in the dark timber on the wet stuff. I like a 200 gr. accubond in my 30-06 or the same in my 338...NOt hard to kill but Ive seen them make some tracks, and Ive seen them lost..BTW I have used a little and seen a lot of game shot with the 45-70 and 45-90 and Ive never been impressed at all...I know it the darling of the internet and so be it, just not my cup of tea..

I.like either head shots on bears or break both shoulders .I saw tons of bears shot in Alaska and shot a few myself .I saw bears shot in the head with a 22 Fall dead in.their tracks .Then I saw bears get the heart lungs and both shoulders broke and run half a mile .Bears are tough the ones here in.georgia have alot of fat and are 600 pounds they are hard to kill because the exit holes seal .I know must people here have to shoot them with a pistol after using a muzzleloader and bow and arrow .I tracked one bear two days that had been shot first with Bird shot then a bow and arrow in the butt then a pistol in the guts .We had to get a dog to find it it had gone three miles before it died .I like to get their shoulders broke I use 338 win mag 250 grain on bears .If was using a 45-70 ,I would use the best heaviest bullet I could shoot and take out both shoulders low .They still run so be ready to track them a ways .

On a big ole boar Id try and break both or at least one shoulder..On a young eating bear I would opt for a shot that wasted less meat..on deer and elk I almost always go for heart/lung shots, or one that doesn't waste meat, especially on elk. Elk shoulders sure have more meat than deer..Deer shoulder meat is very little eating..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Short of in a tree or a trap, I suggest shooting bear with something that knocks a BIG hole in them, that hair sucks up blood like a sponge and it high mountain forest and always damp to wet ground you don't get proper blood trails, hard to read in the dark timber on the wet stuff. I like a 200 gr. accubond in my 30-06 or the same in my 338...NOt hard to kill but Ive seen them make some tracks, and Ive seen them lost..BTW I have used a little and seen a lot of game shot with the 45-70 and 45-90 and Ive never been impressed at all...I know it the darling of the internet and so be it, just not my cup of tea..

Though I'm a long-time fan of the .338, your post troubles me for some reason

While speaking kindly of the .25-35, even the .45-90 doesn't do it for you. Is that because the velocities are not high enough to give much hydraulic shock?

I notice some people are loading .45-90s to .450/.400 levels - does that affect your outlook at all?

In the 45-70, the remington green box 405 grain is loaded to about 1200fps and the various 300 grains are loaded to 1880fps. If you handload, you can bump a 400 grain to 2000fps and a 300 grain to 2100fps. If the bullet is properly constructed like the nosler 300 or the woodleigh 400 grain. The effect will be more than evident compared to factory loadings.

The HSM bear loads push 430 gr at 1800 fps. The bullets are rn lead.

BH63

Sambarman,
NOt really, its how I use the 25-35 and on what animals I use it on...I limit my range for deer under 200 yards, and most short of 100 yards..I don't take long or bad shots..I used it on elk as a youth because my dad thought it best from a recoil standpoint, as did most of the ranchers in that area..and we were told in no uncertain terms to not take bad shots or shoot elk beyond 100 yards max..Under these circumstance its the only justification of using light calibers of any kind. and that even applys to the 22 L.R., if its used properly it will kill about any animal on the NA continent..but the hunter is at a disadvantage of range and ability..

I feel the same for the 45-70, its a short range caliber, and dependent on proper bullets and proper placement..

For the last many years I have only used the 25-35 on deer meat hunts and under the same circumstances that I used in in my youth..

As you know my favorite calibers are the 30-06 and the .338 Win. for anyting larger than a deer, and again even for deer if Im "trophy hunting." wher I may have to shoot beyond 100 yards..If I had a 25-35 and a monster buck jumps up running at 100 yards or stands broad side at 250 yards, Id just watch him walk off into the sunset..

Any caliber works if used properly..but there is no room for mistakes with a light for animal caliber within reason.

Thanks Ray, I've got the 45-70 mainly as an amusement but might give it a go on sambar if hunting in the really thick bush or if we have visitors and need another biggish rifle. Off to the range with it now, so MTC.

With proper bullets its a good short range caliber..I always liked the 350 gr. Hornady that was intended for the .458 Win. but the 458 boys found it too soft, I suspect that's what made it a good 45-70 and 45-90 bullet..It opened up big and penetrated enough coming to rest on the offside rib cage of a bull elk..

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
I have killed several with a Marlin 45-70 and a bow they die easily with lung shots. I however do NOT recommend using the Remington 405 RN. Shot 2 bears around 250# with that bullet both died...(how much more than dead could I want?)...I'll tell you the first was hit broadside thru the lungs 4 times he died inside of 100 yds, the second was hit thru one shoulder into the lungs he went 400 yds and dies...I have both pelts hanging in my den .458 going in and .458 coming out.

I agree with this statement 100%! The Black bear I shot with the 45-70 and 405 gr Rem load was double lunged and left NO blood trail. We would have lost it had it not been for the incredible tracking job preformed by the outfitter. I would stay with some thing like a 350 gr driven with a modern load. The next time I go Black bear hunting I will use a 35 Rem with a handloaded 220 bullet!

I got a box of 350gr Swift A-frames that move out at about 1800fps. They should have enough penetration to break a shoulder and then some.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out (provided a get a shot of course).

BH63

Shoot them in the ear, and they go down like they have been hit by lightning. Hit them in the shoulder, maybe, maybe not.

I ask this all the time, I am sure I make people mad, but it is not my intention.

If you look at the diagrams in Perfect Shot or in other media. Those Zoobooks series I read in school had the same anatomy correct diagrams a shot to the heart on a true board side animal does not break the shoulder everyone talks about.

The leg has to be pulled rearward to bring the shoulder across the heart. Even then it does not cover the whole heart.

Now if the animal is quarting then an angle in shot could break the on shoulder.

The shoulder blade does cover the spine and would break the animal down. But to do so one has to shoot over the mid point centerline. Go too high and you shoot off those bony spinal extensions this will drop an animal, but it will get right back up. Also, some folks do not like ruining the shoulder meat that comes with the shoulder blade shot. I would spine him through the neck if close otherwise punch through the center of both shoulder blades. If at distance, I would play the odds and go for the lungs over the heart and technically behind the shoulder blade.

I do think impact on the heat over the leg on a board side animal can break the on joint. But not bc the bullet strikes the shoulder itself.

If you disagree please tell me.

Diagrams do show a bear's heart rather low and back of the shoulder. I think that with a good shoulder shot bone fragments take out either the heart or the major arteries and veins going into the heart, not too mention damaging the lungs.

BH63

I know the 45-70 or the 250-3000 will kill bear and elk with any well placed shot and a well constructed bullet...What I dislike about some calibers is they do not always leave a good blood trail, the 45-70, 25-35, 250-3000 and such are guilty in a number of cases, especially on bear with al that thick wooly hair that soaks up blood like a sieve..A 338 or 375 and even a 30-06 with a 200 gr. Nosler leaves a good blood trail or has so far. A big exit hole is what I want, and a big entrance helps a lot..small holes plug up with fat and no blood on the ground..
I do agree with HYms post 100%..and sometimes it can be a very difficult shot if the angles are wrong and the target is moving..Your best shot on a bear IMO is to break both shoulders, and not a lot of guns will do that with regularity..

I have killed 11 blk bears and 1 brown bear with a bow also another few blacks with various rifle calibers so I have a bit of a knowledgebase on the subject of killing bears. Whether firearm or stick and string they will not go very far with BOTH lungs punctured...it is that simple. Adjust your caliber or broadband accordingly to leave a good bloodtrail an you will be stuffing sausage by days end.

I have to laugh everytime I hear about the 45-70 not being good enough for .... fill in the blank.
The 450 3 1/3 BP express was a 45/70 with a modern load. Considered the best Tiger gun made, and praised by Selous and Podoro Taylor, they both used it for broadside shots on Buff and elephant.
Best of luck on your bear, I hope the bullets don't bounce off.

^
I will save the last one for me JIC. LOL

BH63

The majority of the black bears I have killed (9/13) were taken with a bow so I would say lungs. They don't go far with no air.

Back40,
Where did you get your information on the caliber the old Africans used, in fact it was not the black powder express or a 450-31/3 or whatever..It was the 450-400-3,25 a much different and more powerful caliber..It India on Tiger it was praised with the 55 gr. load as opposed to the better 60 gr. conversion...

Ive seen a few bears go several hundred yards with double lung shots, same for deer and elk, and even further heart shot..

I just read Craig Boddington's book on North American Game - Perfect Shot.

He makes a great point about black bears.

What works well for a 200lb black bear does not necessarily work well for a 500lb black bear.

He does seem to think the 45-70 with heavy-for-caliber, flat-nosed bullets shot at moderate velocities that hold together for good penetration (Swift A-frame, Nosler Partition, etc) are excellent for killing black bears at ranges under 100 yds.

He seems to think they kill a little faster than the standard "deer" cartridges of lighter bullets at higher velocities.

BH63

Half way up the shoulder or a bit more, quartering toward through the shoulder, full frontal when facing with head up, when head down through the neck and in, or between the shoulder blades and in if you want to dump them.

Through the lungs if you want to follow them around for awhile, or want it to die somewhere else.

^
Pretty much what Boddington stated, although he doesn't like to shoot at unwounded bears directly head on, and as I recall, he recommended broadside shoulder shots to be about 1/3 up the body (same shot as recommended for Cape Buff BTW).

He agreed about lung shots, although they kill, the bear might run off 400 yds or so, making for a heart thumping followup.



BH63

You are flat out wrong Ray. Multiple sources on the use of 450 BP, maybe the best is Truesdell.
He lists the caliber and maker of all the hunters he could find, and the years they used them.
I'm not sure I believe everything Taylor writes
but everyone has a copy, and he sings it's praises.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
^
Pretty much what Boddington stated, although he doesn't like to shoot at unwounded bears directly head on, and as I recall, he recommended broadside shoulder shots to be about 1/3 up the body (same shot as recommended for Cape Buff BTW).

He agreed about lung shots, although they kill, the bear might run off 400 yds or so, making for a heart thumping followup.



BH63

I have shot five black bears with a .308 Win; the only trouble I had was a frontal shot. The bear died but he ran about 400 yards or so and I didn't find him until the next morning. No blood, no nothing, but I heard the death moan after I shot him so I just kept criss-crossing until I found him. Took about 3 hours the next morning.

My problem with the 45-70 is based on kills Ive observed from Client kills..I have several on film where the elk went a quarter or even half a mile, left spotty blood trails and stood straddle legged while the outfitter said wait an let him die so you have a one shot kill..those loads were form his Ruger no. 1 loaded hot with Nosler partition bullets..I place more accuracy on that than contrary posts on the internet, I would think anyone would...I had the same experience with my 45-70, although I loved the gun, I was never too impressediwth it on elk, not at all..up close it killed, but they sure make some tracks..the 45-90 was some better it seemed..I witnessed the same pathictic results with the 50 caliber something or other in the Marlin rifles..it was a short fat 50 caliber, worked pitifully on a Bison cow that walked 2 or 3 miles in a snowstorm after 3 shoulder lung shots....

I had a big bear hang up just behind the bait. He finally moved in just enough for a quartering shoulder shot. At the shot the bear went down, but then jumped up and ran into cover so thick you couldn't fall down if you tried.

The guide and I followed the blood trail for about 160 feet, before we lost it. It was night and the woods were soaked from an earlier rain.

Never found the bear even though we looked the next morning.

Later on during the week, another guy had the exact same shot.

His bear died immediately.

The difference?

He was shooting a .375 Ruger and I was shooting a 45-70.

A lung shot with the 45-70 would have probably left a better blood trail.

BH63

Buffhunter, actually the difference is your bullets onviously didnt work well and his did. Use the right bullets for the job and the 45/70 will do everything thats asked of it. Ive killed waterbuff, 2 capebuff, eland and over 20 other african animals. So far 24 large bovines over 1000lbs with expandables like the swift aframe and barnes xbp. They were from a revolver and none except the 460 smith even approach 45/70 loads. Go ahead and stick to the little flatpoint cast bullets but you will continue to lose game at times. Just get some barnes or swift aframes and go kill anything i listed above definitively, let alone a little black bear. Ive already killed several black bear with revolvers and had none run whatsoever. 45/70 is just more of a good thing. It’s in the bullet, period. Best example of this is my buddies bison he shot with a 50bmg bullet. Never opened and the herd closed in around the wounded animal and it lived for over 15 minutes. Its not the ME its the bullet doing damage.